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Deposition of Bill Gates
August 28, 1998, Part B, Page 2

On Wednesday, April 28, 1999, the official transcript of the
deposition of Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates was released.

	1			Q	Well, there's a lawsuit with Sun, and
	2	it's a lawsuit with Sun relating to the use of Java;
	3	right? 
	4			A	It relates to a very specific contract
	5	that we have with Sun. 
	6			Q	And does that very specific contract
	7	with Sun relate to Java? 
	8			A	It's a license to various Sun
	9	technologies related to Java. 
10			Q	Now, you're familiar with that lawsuit,
11	are you not, sir? 
12			A	Not very. 
13			Q	Not very?  
14				Do you know what the contentions in
15	that lawsuit are? 
16			A	No. 
17			Q	Never tried to find out?  Is that your
18	testimony? 
19			A	I haven't read the complaint, if that's
20	your question. 
21			Q	That's not my question.  
22				My question is whether you've ever
23	tried to find out the substance of the allegations
24	about Java that Sun is making in its lawsuit against
25	Microsoft. 
	1			A	My understanding of their allegations
	2	is very limited. 
	3			Q	What is your understanding of their
	4	allegations? 
	5			A	I haven't read the contract between
	6	Microsoft and Sun. 
	7			Q	I'm asking you about the allegations in
	8	the complaint, not whether you've read the contract. 
	9	I'm asking you for your understanding, which I know
10	you've already said is very limited.  But I'm asking
11	for your understanding of what allegations Sun makes
12	in its claim against Microsoft. 
13			A	I think there's some dispute about they
14	were supposed to make the test cases public and
15	upwards compatible, and they didn't make them public,
16	and they weren't upwards compatible.  And that
17	relates to the contract that I haven't read. 
18			Q	And that's what you think they allege
19	in the complaint? 
20			A	Well, that -- those are certain things
21	that they were required to do, I believe. 
22			Q	My question is not about what you
23	believe they were required to do, Mr. Gates.  My
24	question is:  What is your understanding about the
25	complaint that they make about what you did, about
	1	what Microsoft did? 
	2				Do you understand the question? 
	3			A	You're asking me to summarize their
	4	lawsuit? 
	5			Q	I'm asking you to tell me what you know
	6	about the claims they make in that lawsuit.  You said
	7	you know something about it, but it's very limited. 
	8	All I'm trying to do is get you to tell me what it is
	9	you know about the claims they make in their lawsuit. 
10			A	I think they want us to ship JNI. 
11			Q	Is that all you know about their
12	claims? 
13			A	I think there was something about a
14	trademark. 
15			Q	What about the trademark? 
16			A	Whether we could use the trademark. 
17	I'm not sure. 
18			Q	Don't you know, Mr. Gates, one of the
19	allegations that they make is that you're taking
20	their trademark and applying it to things that it
21	shouldn't be applied to? 
22			A	Yeah.  I think there's a trademark
23	issue.  I'm not sure what they're saying about the
24	trademark. 
25			Q	Do you know anything that they're
	1	saying about the trademark according to your present
	2	testimony? 
	3			A	I know there's a dispute about the
	4	trademark. 
	5			Q	Well, don't you know that one of the
	6	things they're alleging is that Microsoft is taking
	7	their trademark and applying it to things that
	8	shouldn't be applied to according to them? 
	9			A	I'm not sure that's right. 
10			Q	You're not sure? 
11			A	Because I don't think we used their
12	trademark, I'm not sure.  I'm kind of confused about
13	that.  I've never seen us using their trademark, so
14	I'm a little confused about how that relates to any
15	dispute with Sun. 
16			Q	Did you ever try to find that out? 
17			A	What? 
18			Q	What the claims were more than your
19	present knowledge. 
20			A	I read something that was on our web
21	site about four days ago. 
22			Q	About the Sun lawsuit? 
23			A	Yeah.  Bob Muglia had some statements. 
24			Q	Other than that, did you ever try to
25	find out what Microsoft is being charged with, what
	1	they're alleged to have done wrong? 
	2			A	I've had discussions with Maritz
	3	saying:  Do I need to learn about this lawsuit?  Do I
	4	need to spend a lot of time on it? 
	5			Q	What did he say? 
	6			A	He said, no, he's focused on that and I
	7	can focus on other things. 
	8			Q	Is one of the things that you're
	9	focused on trying, in Mr. Slivka's words, to wrest
10	control or get control, if wrest is a word that you
11	don't like, of Java away from Sun? 
12			A	No. 
13			Q	How did you think Microsoft could get
14	control of Java away from Sun?
15				MR. HEINER:  Objection. 
16				THE WITNESS:  I honestly don't know
17	what you mean by "control of Java."  I know those
18	words are in that e-mail from Mr. Slivka.  But when
19	you're asking me the question, I don't know what you
20	mean "control of Java."
21			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Is it your testimony,
22	Mr. Gates, that as you sit here today under oath you
23	have no idea what Mr. Slivka meant when he said that
24	one of the pointed questions that you had raised with
25	him was how to get control of Java away from Sun? 
	1			A	I told you, I think it related to our
	2	attempt to make our runtime APIs the most popular
	3	runtime APIs. 
	4			Q	And not the Java APIs from Sun; is that
	5	what you're saying? 
	6			A	Well, let's not label the APIs, not the
	7	unique ones that Sun was promoting. 
	8			Q	When you say the unique ones that Sun
	9	was promoting, what were the unique ones that Sun was
10	promoting called? 
11			A	I'm not sure what they're called.  I
12	think AWT 1.2 maybe or JDK 1.2. 
13			Q	And is it your best testimony that
14	that's what you think this would have meant back in
15	April of 1997, sir? 
16			A	That what meant? 
17			Q	Getting control of Java away from Sun. 
18	The thing we've been talking about here. 
19			A	Is that the same as "wrest control"? 
20	You keep reading me these words from the e-mail. 
21			Q	Well, I'm trying to get away from the
22	word "rest" because you say you don't remember that
23	exact word.  So I'm trying to use a word that's more
24	neutral like get or obtain control. 
25			A	And I've told you, I can't understand
	1	what's meant by "control" there.  I know that we're
	2	trying to make our APIs popular with developers. 
	3			Q	How does making your APIs popular with
	4	developers relate to obtaining control of Java, if at
	5	all? 
	6			A	I don't know what it means to control
	7	Java.  How can somebody control Java?  What does that
	8	mean? 
	9			Q	Is it your testimony that you have no
10	idea what that means? 
11			A	To control Java?  I don't think anyone
12	can control Java.  It's like saying controlling Basic
13	or COBOL.  
14			Q	Do you really mean that, sir? 
15			A	Yes. 
16			Q	And I'm going to press this just
17	another 30 seconds and then I will stop.  But I
18	really do want to be sure that I have given you a
19	full and fair opportunity. 
20				Is it your testimony that as you sit
21	here today under oath that you have no idea what is
22	meant by control of Java as used in this e-mail to
23	you by Mr. Slivka? 
24			A	I've said several times I think he must
25	be referring to our effort to make our APIs the most
	1	popular APIs.  But that wouldn't give us control of
	2	Java.  So I'm having a hard time relating it to these
	3	specific words. 
	4			Q	Well, without relating it to the
	5	specific words, how would getting people to use your
	6	APIs get control of Java?  Why do you relate those
	7	two in your mind? 
	8			A	Because he probably means the Java
	9	runtime, not Java. 
10			Q	Let's say he means the Java runtime. 
11			A	Then he's talking about the competition
12	of APIs. 
13			Q	Is it fair to say, Mr. Gates, that you
14	interpret this as how does Microsoft get, obtain,
15	control of Java runtime?  Is that what you're saying? 
16			A	I think that's the most likely
17	explanation of what he meant.  I still don't
18	understand the word "control" there because it's not
19	the word I'd use. 
20			Q	Well, according to Mr. Slivka it is the
21	word you used, is it not, sir?
22				MR. HEINER:  Objection. 
23				THE WITNESS:  We've already been
24	through that.
25			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  But looking at this
	1	doesn't refresh your recollection about having used
	2	that word? 
	3			A	It does not. 
	4			Q	Have you ever said in words or in
	5	substance to anyone that you wanted to obtain control
	6	over Java or under -- over Java runtimes? 
	7			A	I don't remember using those words. 
	8			Q	Do you remember conveying that concept
	9	or conveying that substance? 
10			A	If by "that concept" you mean conveying
11	the idea that we wanted our runtime APIs to be the
12	most popular, then the answer is yes. 
13			Q	Why did you want your runtime APIs to
14	be the most popular? 
15			A	By having our runtime APIs be the most
16	popular it means that people are more likely to
17	license Windows because there's applications that
18	take advantage of the unique innovations that are in
19	the Windows product. 
20			Q	Why does the fact that their
21	applications that take advantage of the unique APIs
22	that are in the Windows product make people more
23	likely to license Windows? 
24			A	Because it shows off the unique
25	innovations of Windows. 
	1			Q	How does it show off the unique
	2	innovations of Windows? 
	3			A	Well, let's say, for example, they call
	4	our tasking APIs, then it shows off the unique way
	5	that we've done tasking.  Let's say they call our
	6	clipboard APIs, then it shows off the advances we've
	7	made in data exchange which are very advanced. 
	8			Q	Is it your testimony that trying to get
	9	applications writers to write to Windows' own APIs
10	was something that you were trying to do only for the
11	reason that you've identified? 
12				MR. HEINER:  May I have that read back,
13	please? 
14				(Question read.) 
15				THE WITNESS:  I think there's
16	additional reasons as well.
17			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Isn't it a fact, 
18	Mr. Gates, that one of the reasons that you were
19	trying -- that Microsoft was trying to get control
20	over the Java runtimes or Java, as it's described in
21	Mr. Slivka's memorandum, was to prevent Java or Java
22	runtimes from supporting competition with Windows? 
23				MR. HEINER:  Objection. 
24				THE WITNESS:  I don't know what you
25	mean by "control."  That means I don't understand the
	1	question.
	2			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Okay.  
	3				Did you ever participate in any
	4	discussions within Microsoft as to the extent of
	5	which Java or Java runtimes posed a threat to
	6	Microsoft's position with respect to the Windows
	7	platform? 
	8			A	Yeah.  I've already told you that there
	9	came a point where we viewed Sun's unique Java
10	runtime APIs as a -- as a part of the competitive
11	environment, a competitor. 
12			Q	Okay.  
13				Now, why were the Java APIs from Sun a
14	competitor? 
15			A	Well, if people just used the least
16	common denominator APIs, then they don't show off the
17	innovations that we're doing in Windows, and it makes
18	it less attractive to people to license Windows or
19	update Windows. 
20			Q	Now, what I'm trying to do -- and you
21	may think you've answered this question, but I don't
22	think the record makes it clear in any event. 
23				What I'm trying to do is distinguish
24	between that reason which you've given me a couple
25	times and any other reason that may exist. 
	1				Do you understand what I'm asking? 
	2			A	No. 
	3			Q	Okay.  Let me try it again.  
	4				Isn't it true, Mr. Gates, that in
	5	addition to whatever desire you may have had to show
	6	off your Windows capabilities that you say you had,
	7	that one of the things that was going on here was
	8	your trying, Microsoft's trying, to prevent Java from
	9	getting wide enough distribution so that it could
10	support applications programming for platforms other
11	than Windows? 
12			A	No. 
13			Q	Not at all, sir? 
14			A	There's no limitation of distribution. 
15			Q	Didn't ask whether there was any
16	limitation of distribution.  I asked you whether in
17	any way the desire to prevent Java from developing
18	applications that could be used on platforms other
19	than Windows motivated what Microsoft was doing in
20	connection with Java. 
21				MR. HEINER:  Objection.  That's a
22	distinctly different question. 
23				THE WITNESS:  What does it mean Java
24	developing applications?
25			Q	BY MR. BOIES:  I actually didn't recall
	1	that I used that phrase. 
	2				THE WITNESS:  Can you read me the
	3	question?
	4				(The following question was read:  
	5				   "Q  I asked you whether in
	6			any way the desire to prevent Java
	7			from developing applications that
	8			could be used on platforms other than
	9			Windows motivated what Microsoft was
10			doing in connection with Java.")
11				MR. BOIES:  Can you answer that
12	question, Mr. Gates.  If you can't, I'll rephrase it.
13	But if you can answer, I'd like an answer.  
14				THE WITNESS:  I don't know what you
15	mean "Java developing applications."
16		   Q	BY MR. BOIES:  Isn't it a fact, 
17	Mr. Gates, that in addition to whatever other reasons
18	you say you had for what you did with Java and
19	Windows APIs, part of what you were trying to do was
20	to prevent Java from having a wide enough
21	distribution so that it could support programs that
22	could be used on platforms other than Windows? 
23		   A	We had no way of preventing Java from
24	being used on other platforms.  It is used on other
25	platforms. 
	1			Q	That wasn't my question, sir.  My
	2	question is whether or not part of what you and
	3	Microsoft was trying to do was to limit the
	4	distribution of Java sufficiently so that you could
	5	thereby limit or reduce the extent to which
	6	applications were written that could be used on
	7	platforms other than Windows. 
	8			A	No.  In fact, we sell the most popular
	9	Java tools in the market. 
10			Q	It is your testimony, then, sitting
11	here, that Microsoft was not at all motivated by a
12	desire to limit the extent to which Java could be
13	used to develop applications programming that could
14	be used on platforms other than Microsoft's Windows? 
15	Is that your testimony? 
16			A	Yes. 
17			Q	All right, sir.  
18				Was your concern over Netscape's
19	browser at all related to the fact that Netscape's
20	browser was viewed within Microsoft as a method of
21	distributing Java? 
22				MR. HEINER:  Objection.  At the risk of
23	belaboring the record. 
24				Would you care to state the question
25	more precisely and perhaps develop a better record? 
	1	Or do you want to stick with the question you have?  
	2				MR. BOIES:  If the witness tells me he
	3	can't understand that question, that's an answer.  If
	4	he can understand the question, I'd like to have an
	5	answer.
	6				MR. HEINER:  In addition to that
	7	there's an objection based on that, so that's a
	8	second consideration. 
	9				THE WITNESS:  Well, you have to read
10	the question again.  Sorry. 
11				(The following question was read:  
12				   "Q  Was your concern over
13			Netscape's browser at all related to
14			the fact that Netscape's browser was
15			viewed within Microsoft as a method
16			of distributing Java?")
17				MR. HEINER:  Another objection. 
18	Foundation.
19				MR. BOIES:  Okay.  I think the
20	foundation objection may be well-taken.  Let me ask
21	the foundation question. 
22		   Q	Did Microsoft believe that Netscape's
23	browser was a means of distributing Java APIs? 
24		   A	Well, Netscape had some APIs in its
25	browser.  I'm not sure if you would refer to them as
	1	Java APIs or not. 
	2			Q	It's not a question whether I would
	3	refer to them that way or not, Mr. Gates.  What I'm
	4	asking you is what you and Microsoft believe.  
	5					And my question is:
Did you and others 6 at Microsoft believe that Netscape's browser was a 7 method for distributing Java APIs? 8 A There were APIs in the Netscape 9 browser. I don't think they were strictly Java APIs 10 or even in a direct sense specifically. 11 Q Have you completed your answer, sir? 12 A Uh-huh. 13 MR. BOIES: Can I have the question 14 read back again? 15 (The following question was read: 16 "Q It's not a question 17 whether I would refer to them that 18 way or not, Mr. Gates. What I'm 19 asking you is what you and Microsoft 20 believe. 21 "And my question is: Did 22 you and others at Microsoft believe 23 that Netscape's browser was a method 24 for distributing Java APIs?") 25 Q BY MR. BOIES: Can you tell me that, 433 1 sir? 2 A There were APIs in Netscape browser 3 some of which under some definition of Java APIs 4 you'd call Java APIs. 5 Q And was there concern within Microsoft 6 that the distribution of these things that you say 7 could be called Java APIs would adversely affect 8 Microsoft? 9 A Our concern is always to get people to 10 develop Windows applications. And to the degree that 11 there's other APIs people to develop to, there's some 12 competition for the attention of developers and 13 focusing on those APIs. But that doesn't relate to 14 distribution. 15 MR. BOIES: Can I have my question read 16 back again, please? 17 (The following question was read: 18 "Q And was there concern 19 within Microsoft that the 20 distribution of these things that you 21 say could be called Java APIs would 22 adversely affect Microsoft?") 23 Q BY MR. BOIES: Could I have an answer 24 to that question, please, sir? 25 A No, not the distribution. 434 1 Q Let me ask you to look at a document 2 that has been previously marked as Government Exhibit 3 349. The first message in this exhibit is an e-mail 4 from Paul Maritz to you and a number of other people 5 dated July 14, 1997; correct, sir? 6 A That's what it appears to be, yes. 7 Q Did you receive this e-mail, sir? 8 A I don't remember it. But I don't have 9 any reason to doubt that I did. 10 Q Mr. Maritz writes to you in the third 11 sentence, quote, 12 "If we look further at 13 Java/JFC being our major threat, then 14 Netscape is the major distribution 15 vehicle." 16 Do you see that, sir? 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q Do you recall Mr. Maritz telling you in 19 words or in substance that Netscape was the major 20 distribution vehicle for the Java/JFC threat to 21 Microsoft? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you believe in July of 1997 that 24 Java/JFC was a major threat to Microsoft as 25 Mr. Maritz writes here? 435 1 A It was a significant issue for his 2 group in terms of how ISVs would choose to focus 3 their development in the future. 4 Q Did you believe in July of 1997 that 5 Java/JFC was a major threat to Microsoft? 6 A In the form that it existed as of that 7 day, maybe not. But if we looked at how it might be 8 evolved in the future, we did think of it as 9 something that competed with us for the attention of 10 ISVs in terms of whether or not they would take 11 advantage of the advanced features of Windows. 12 Q Do you have any understanding as to 13 what Mr. Maritz meant when he wrote to you about 14 Java/JFC being a major threat to Microsoft? 15 A Yeah. I just answered that. 16 Q What did you understand Mr. Maritz to 17 mean when he says Java/JFC was Microsoft's major 18 threat? 19 A I just answered that. 20 Q You'll have to give me an answer, 21 Mr. Gates, because if you did answer it, it's not an 22 answer that I can understand how it applies to the 23 particular question I'm asking. 24 A I said we looked at how the various 25 runtime APIs which was always confusing, you know, 436 1 where they were going or what they were doing. And 2 "JFC" is just a term for some of those, how they 3 might evolve in a way that would take away the focus 4 of developers in terms of writing applications that 5 would take unique advantage of Windows features. 6 Q I understand that you say that that was 7 an issue for you. Why was that a major threat to 8 Microsoft, if you have any understanding? 9 A Well, if people stopped writing 10 applications that took advantage of Windows runtime 11 APIs, that would mean that users wouldn't have access 12 to the innovative features that we were putting into 13 Windows. 14 Q Why was that a major threat to 15 Microsoft? 16 A If ISVs weren't writing applications to 17 take unique advantage of Windows, then it wouldn't 18 show off the Windows innovation and so users wouldn't 19 have much reason to update Windows or to license any 20 new versions of Windows. 21 Q You referred to JFC in a couple answers 22 ago and, of course, that's here in the memo. What 23 does "JFC" stand for as you understand it? 24 A I was always a little confused about 25 that, and it changed over time. It stands for Java 437 1 Foundation Classes. 2 Q Mr. Maritz writes here that Netscape is 3 the major distribution vehicle for Java and Java 4 Foundation Classes. 5 Do you see that? 6 A That's at the end of that sentence? 7 Q Yes. 8 A Uh-huh. 9 Q Do you see that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Now, in a prior answer you said you 12 didn't understand how the browser was a distribution 13 vehicle. Does this refresh your recollection that at 14 least within Microsoft in July of 1997 Netscape was 15 viewed as the major distribution vehicle for Java? 16 A Not for Java. And in my view, the 17 browser wasn't a key distribution channel. Maritz 18 may or may not have agreed with that. But you can 19 always ship the runtime with the applications. 20 Q Mr. Maritz here says, "Netscape is the 21 major distribution vehicle." 22 Now, it's clear to you, is it not, sir, 23 that he means the major distribution vehicle for Java 24 and Java Foundation Classes? 25 A He doesn't mean for Java. 438 1 Q Well, sir, he says -- 2 A I told you many times about the use of 3 the word "Java." And I'm not sure you heard me. 4 When people use the word "Java," they don't mean just 5 Java. 6 Q So when Mr. Maritz here used the word 7 "Java," in this e-mail that you say you don't recall 8 receiving, you're telling me that he meant something 9 other than just Java? 10 A He -- I bet he meant some runtime APIs, 11 not Java. 12 Q Okay. 13 Let's assume that you're right, let's 14 assume that when he talks about Java he means Java 15 runtime APIs. Would you then agree that what he is 16 saying here is that Netscape is the major 17 distribution vehicle for Java runtime APIs and Java 18 Foundation Classes? 19 A That appears to be what he's saying in 20 this e-mail. 21 Q And what was Mr. Maritz's position in 22 July of 1997? 23 MR. HEINER: Asked and answered too 24 many times. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I've answered this 439 1 three times. 2 MR. BOIES: I'm not sure you did as to 3 this particular point in time. And one of the things 4 that you have told me is that the titles changed. 5 And so one of the things I want to be sure the record 6 is clear on is what Mr. Maritz's position was as of 7 the time of this key document. 8 MR. HEINER: You can cut and paste the 9 transcript any way you want in your briefs and in 10 your opening and closing argument. The witness has 11 testified as to his title many times. 12 Q BY MR. BOIES: Mr. Gates, what was 13 Mr. Maritz's title on July 14, 1997? 14 A I think group vice president. 15 Q What was he group vice president of? 16 A I don't know what the title would have 17 said after that. But he managed the group that 18 contained all of our Windows activities. 19 Q Was he group vice president for 20 Platforms? 21 A I'm not sure. I'm sure if it contained 22 the word "Platforms," it didn't just say Platforms, 23 because he's got Office and some other things also. 24 Q But within his responsibilities would 25 have been Windows? 440 1 A That's right. 2 Q Let me ask you to look at a document 3 that has been marked as Government Exhibit 374. This 4 is an e-mail to you from Tod Nielsen dated August 25, 5 1997, with copies to Brad Chase. 6 (The document referred to
was marked as 7 Government Exhibit 374 for identification and is 8 attached hereto.) 9 Q BY MR. BOIES: Did you receive this 10 e-mail, sir? 11 A I don't remember receiving it. But I 12 don't have any reason to doubt that I did. 13 Q Let me ask you to look at the seventh 14 paragraph down. That's the third paragraph from the 15 bottom, the last sentence. That says, quote, 16 "So, we are just proactively 17 trying to put obstacles in Sun's path 18 and get anyone that wants to write in 19 Java to use J/Direct and target 20 Windows directly," close quote. 21 Do you see that, sir? 22 A Uh-huh. 23 Q Do you recall being told in or about 24 August of 1997 that Microsoft was trying to put 25 obstacles in Sun's path and get anyone that wants to 441 1 write in Java to use J/Direct and target Windows 2 directly? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know why Microsoft was trying to 5 put, quote, "obstacles in Sun's path," close quote? 6 A I don't know what that means. 7 Q Do you know why Microsoft was trying to 8 get anyone that wants to write in Java to use 9 J/Direct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Why was that? 12 A Because J/Direct allows you to make 13 calls that show off unique innovations in Windows and 14 make -- therefore, make Windows more attractive. 15 Q Was there any reason other than that 16 that Microsoft wanted to get anyone that wants to 17 write in Java to use J/Direct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What? 20 A Well, there's a benefit to us if people 21 are showing off Windows, and it increases Windows 22 popularity. That helps us with the other 23 applications we write for Windows as well including 24 Microsoft Office. 25 Q How is that so? 442 1 A Because Microsoft Office is targeted to 2 Windows, we get a benefit that goes even beyond 3 increased sales of Windows if we manage to popularize 4 Windows. 5 Q Why is that? 6 A Because they can buy Office. 7 Q They can buy Office and use it on the 8 Mac, too, can't they, since you didn't cancel Mac 9 Office? 10 A We have a much wider set of 11 applications available for the Windows platform than 12 any other platform. And we have more frequent 13 updates of products like Office on the Windows 14 platform. It's a more powerful version, the Windows 15 version, and it -- therefore, our revenue per unit is 16 somewhat higher. 17 Q You mean the version of Office for 18 Windows is more powerful than the version of Office 19 for Mac? Is that what you're saying? 20 A Yes. We have Office Pro. 21 Q What is J/Direct? 22 A J/Direct is a way of allowing Java 23 language code to call native OS functionality. It's 24 a fairly clever thing that we have done. And others 25 now use that term to refer to it when they let their 443 1 OS functionality show through as well. 2 Q You have referred to Java runtimes. 3 Are there J/Direct runtimes? 4 A There's a thunk, but it's -- I don't 5 know if you would call it a runtime or not. It's a 6 thunk. 7 Q Would you define for me what the 8 difference is, in your mind, between a thunk and a 9 runtime? 10 A A thunk is a small piece of runtime 11 that remaps parameters and calling conventions in 12 such a way to be able to pass along an API call to 13 another piece of runtime. 14 Q Does -- or I should say, when was 15 J/Direct developed by Microsoft? 16 A I'm not sure. 17 Q Approximately? 18 A I don't -- I don't know. I mean -- 19 Q Why was J/Direct developed by 20 Microsoft? 21 A To make is easy for people who choose 22 the Java language to call the unique runtime features 23 in various operating systems including Windows. 24 Q Why do you want people to write in 25 J/Direct as opposed to Java? 444 1 A They are writing in Java. You only use 2 J/Direct if you write in Java. 3 Q Well, what Mr. Nielsen says is that 4 Microsoft is trying to get anyone that wants to write 5 in Java to use J/Direct. 6 Do you see that? 7 A That's right. And that means writing 8 in Java. 9 Q And why do you want to get anyone who 10 wants to write in Java to use J/Direct? 11 A Because that gives them a way of 12 calling unique Windows APIs that allow us to show off 13 the innovative features in Windows. 14 Q Couldn't you do that by having them 15 simply write in Java and you providing the thunk 16 separately? 17 A The name of the thunk is J/Direct. I 18 guess we could have another thunk and call it 19 something other than J/Direct, and that would be 20 another way that they could do it. But we didn't 21 choose to do it twice. 22 Q No, you didn't choose to do it twice. 23 That's not my question, Mr. Gates. 24 My question is why you were trying to 25 get program developers, independent programming 445 1 people, to use J/Direct. Why were you trying to get 2 them to do that? 3 MR. HEINER: Certainly asked and 4 answered. 5 THE WITNESS: Because it allows them to 6 get at the unique API functionality that's in the 7 Windows product and show off the innovations that we 8 do there. 9 Q BY MR. BOIES: But you didn't have to? 10 A Tell me some other way. 11 Q Well, I'm asking you. If you tell me 12 that that's what you say is the only way that you 13 could think of for them to do it, that's your 14 testimony. I don't get to testify here. If I did, 15 there would have been a lot of things I would have 16 said along the way. But since I don't get to 17 testify, all I get to do is ask you questions. 18 And my question to you is whether there 19 was a way, that you were aware of at the time, to let 20 people see all of what you refer to as the 21 functionality of Windows without getting people to 22 write to what you refer to here to use J/Direct if 23 they wanted to write in Java. 24 A J/Direct is exactly the work we did to 25 make it possible and reasonable for people writing in 446 1 Java to call the unique Windows APIs. 2 Q Have you finished your answer? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 Now, were you aware of other ways of 6 accomplishing the same result that you considered and 7 rejected at the time? 8 A What time is that? 9 Q The time that you developed J/Direct. 10 A We don't know what that time is. 11 Q Well, you may not know the exact year. 12 But do you know that when -- were you aware when 13 J/Direct was being developed within Microsoft? Were 14 you aware of it at the time? 15 A I'm not sure. 16 Q Did you know it was being developed? 17 A I'm not sure. 18 Q Did you have any discussions about the 19 development of J/Direct? 20 A I was not involved in the design of 21 J/Direct. 22 Q I'm not asking you whether you were 23 involved in the design of J/Direct. I'm asking you 24 whether you were aware at the time that J/Direct was 25 being developed that it was being developed? 447

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