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Deposition of Bill Gates
September 2, 1998, Page 1

On Wednesday, April 28, 1999, the official transcript of the
deposition of Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates was released.

	1	         IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT  
	2	            FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
	3   
	4   
	5	UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,	)                               
			)
	6	                    Plaintiff,	)
			)
	7	         vs.	) No. CIV 98-1232(TPJ) 
			)
	8	MICROSOFT CORPORATION,	)     VOLUME III 
			)
	9	                    Defendant. 	)     CONFIDENTIAL   
			) 
10	 ______________________________	)                 
11   
12	          
13	                DEPOSITION OF BILL GATES, a witness
14	herein, taken on behalf of the plaintiffs at 
15	9:11 a.m., Wednesday, September 2, 1998, at One
16	Microsoft Way, Redmond, Washington, before Kathleen
17	E. Barney, CSR, pursuant to Subpoena.  
18   
19   
20   
21   
22   
23	REPORTED BY:  
	Kathleen E. Barney, 
24	CSR No. 5698
	Our File No. 1-49196
25   
	1   APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:  
	2   
	3          FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:  
	4	UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
		BY KARMA M. GIULIANELLI 
	5	450 Golden Gate Avenue
		Box 36046
	6	San Francisco, California  94102               
		(415) 436-6660
	7   
		BOIES & SCHILLER LLP
	8	BY DAVID BOIES
		80 Business Park Drive
	9	Armonk, New York  10504-1710
		(914) 273-9800  
10   
11          FOR MICROSOFT CORPORATION:  
12	MICROSOFT CORPORATION
		LAW AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS
13	BY DAVID A. HEINER
		WILLIAM H. NEUKOM
14	One Microsoft Way              
		Redmond, Washington  98052
15		(425) 936-3103
16		SULLIVAN & CROMWELL	
			BY RICHARD J. UROWSKY
17		125 Broad Street
			New York, New York 10004
18		(212) 558-3546                   
19   
		FOR THE PLAINTIFF STATES:  
20   
			STATE OF NEW YORK
21		OFFICE OF ATTORNEY GENERAL
			BY GAIL P. CLEARY 
22		120 Broadway
			New York, New York 10271-0332        
23		(212) 416-8275    
24   	ALSO PRESENT:  PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, Paralegal
25		        MICHEL CARTER, Video Operator    
	
	1				I N D E X
	2	WITNESS		EXAMINATION BY             	PAGE
	3	Bill Gates		Mr. Boies	510
	4   
	5	GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS
	6		380	E-mail dated 12/1/96	549  
	7		381	E-mail dated 1/16/96	565 
	8		382	Executive summary	594
	9		383	E-mail dated 1/5/97	600 
10		384	E-mail dated 6/10/94	608   
11		385	Computer World article	617
12		386	E-mail dated 4/6/95	618 
13		387	E-mail dated 4/12/95	623  
14		388	E-mail dated 4/12/95	625
15	390	E-mail dated 2/24/97	628   
16	391	E-mail dated 4/18/95	633
17	392	E-mail dated 1/28/97	635
18	393	E-mail dated 2/15/98	583 
19	394	E-mail dated 2/4/95	652
20	395	E-mail dated 2/19/97	652
21	396	"The Use and Misuse of Technology"	655
22	397	E-mail dated 3/13/97	605
23	398	E-mail dated 10/3/94	658
24	399	E-mail dated 1/8/96	663
25	400	E-mail dated 11/6/97	666
	
	1	401	E-mail dated 8/15/97	674
	2	402	E-mail dated 8/5/97	676
	3	403	E-mail dated 2/16/98	677
	4	404	E-mail dated 3/23/94	678
	5   
	6   
	7   
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25   
	1				BILL GATES,
	2	a witness herein, having been duly sworn, was deposed
	3	and testified further as follows:  
	4   
	5				EXAMINATION
	6	BY MR. BOIES:  
	7		Q.	Good morning, Mr. Gates.  Do you
	8	understand that you are still under oath?
	9		A.	Yes.
10		Q.	Since the deposition session last
11	Friday, have you talked to anyone, other than your
12	counsel, about your deposition or about this case?
13		A.	There were people who knew I'd been
14	deposed who said, "Were you deposed?" and "Are you
15	done being deposed?"  And I simply told them I had
16	been deposed and I thought I had one more day of
17	being deposed.
18		Q.	Other than simply telling them that you
19	had been deposed and you had one more day to be
20	deposed, did you have any discussions at all with
21	anyone, other than your counsel, either about your
22	deposition or any matters relating to your deposition
23	or about this case since last Friday?
24		A.	Oh, I think someone mentioned they'd
25	read in the paper various things about the
					510
	
	1	deposition.
	2		Q.	Who was that?
	3		A.	I don't remember who.  I was at an
	4	event where there were like 500 people, some of whom
	5	I wasn't introduced to, but I think some people came
	6	up and said they read about it in the newspaper.
	7		Q.	And one of the people that said that
	8	was somebody who you didn't know; is that your
	9	testimony?
10		A.	I remember some people saying that.  I
11	don't recall exactly who said it.
12		Q.	What is this event that you're talking
13	about?
14		A.	Oh, it's a get-together that Paul Allen
15	had of a number of people.
16		Q.	You attended this get-together?
17		A.	Yes.
18		Q.	When did this get-together take place?
19		A.	Friday night through Monday morning,
20	although I only -- actually, it started Friday
21	morning, but I was there from Friday night until
22	Sunday night.
23		Q.	I'd like you to tell me everything that
24	you can recall that you said to anyone since last
25	Friday afternoon about the deposition or this case or
					511
	
	1	anything relating to this deposition or this case.  
	2		A.	Other than my lawyers?
	3		Q.	Other than your lawyers, yes.
	4		A.	Do you include my wife in that?
	5		Q.	Did you talk to your wife about this
	6	deposition?
	7		A.	Yes.
	8		Q.	Did you talk to your wife about this
	9	case?
10		A.	Well, I talked to her about the
11	deposition, which relates to the case.  I didn't talk
12	to her about the case in any sense beyond talking
13	about the deposition.
14		Q.	Was anyone else present when you did
15	this?
16		A.	No.
17		Q.	Let's leave your wife aside, too.
18		A.	I can recall some people saying, "Must
19	have been rough," and my saying, "Well, it's like
20	depositions I've been in before."  I think a lot of
21	people came up and said they were rooting for us.  A
22	number of people asked if I was done with my
23	deposition.  
24			Some people suggested that they were
25	surprised I'd been able to make it given that I'd
					512
	
	1	been in a deposition.  I explained that I had to come
	2	late because of the deposition.  But that's all I can
	3	remember about anything about the deposition.
	4		Q.	Or about the case or anything related
	5	to the deposition or the case?
	6		A.	Other than my wife and my lawyers, yes.
	7		Q.	Yes.  
	8			I asked you last week whether you were
	9	going to be a witness at the trial of this case and
10	you said you didn't know.  Do you know now whether
11	you're going to be a witness at the trial of this
12	case?
13		A.	I don't know -- no, I don't.  I don't
14	know whether our side will make me a witness or
15	whether your side will make me a witness.
16		Q.	Do you intend to be a witness at the
17	trial of this case if we do not call you?
18		A.	I don't know.
19		Q.	Have you spoken to anyone, other than
20	your counsel, about whether or not you intend to be a
21	witness at trial in this case?
22		A.	I haven't spoken to anyone else about
23	an intention to be a witness.  I have told my wife
24	that there's a time we're on vacation that may
25	overlap this trial and if either side does choose to
					513
	
	1	call me, looking at what kind every disruption in our
	2	schedule that might cause.
	3		Q.	Other than conversations which you have
	4	had with your wife or your counsel, have you had any
	5	conversations with anyone about the possibility of
	6	your being a witness at the trial of this case?
	7		A.	No.
	8		Q.	Other than conversations that you have
	9	had with your counsel, have you had any conversations
10	with anyone about the possibility of someone other
11	than yourself being a witness at the trial of this
12	case?
13		A.	Yes.
14		Q.	With whom have you had those
15	conversations?
16		A.	I spoke to an MIT professor, Professor
17	Dertouzos, about his possibly being a witness in the
18	case, an expert witness.
19		Q.	When did you do that?
20		A.	A few weeks ago.  I -- I don't remember
21	the date.  I can go back and try to establish it, but
22	it's more than two weeks ago.
23		Q.	Was that a conversation that you had in
24	person or by telephone?
25		A.	By telephone.
					514
	
	1		Q.	Were you asking him if he would be a
	2	witness; is that what you were doing?
	3		A.	I was inquiring whether he would be
	4	willing to be a witness, yes.
	5		Q.	What did he say?
	6		A.	He wasn't sure when I talked to him and
	7	he said he would think about it.
	8		Q.	Other than that one telephone
	9	conversation, have you had any conversations with
10	anyone concerning the possibility that someone other
11	than yourself might be a witness at the trial of this
12	case?
13		A.	Other than with my lawyers, no.
14		Q.	Other than with your lawyers.  
15			Have you made any efforts or to your
16	knowledge has anyone at Microsoft, other than
17	counsel, made any efforts to determine whether people
18	would be willing to be trial witnesses in this case?
19		A.	The only thing I know about along those
20	lines is there was an economist who came out and met
21	with me and some other Microsoft people, and that may
22	have been in connection with whether or not that
23	economist would be an expert witness in this trial.
24		Q.	When did that happen?
25		A.	A few weeks ago.
					515
	
	1		Q.	Do you know the economist's name?
	2		A.	Yes, Dick Schmalansee.  I don't know
	3	how to spell it.
	4		Q.	I don't either, but I know who you
	5	mean.  
	6			Other than Professor Schmalansee and
	7	that meeting you had with him, and of course the
	8	telephone conversation with the MIT professor, have
	9	there been any other people that you're aware of that
10	either you or other people at Microsoft have talked
11	to about the possibility of being a witness?
12		A.	No.
13		Q.	Insofar as you are aware, has anyone at
14	Microsoft, other than your counsel, called up any
15	companies with whom Microsoft does business to
16	discuss the possibility of a representative of those
17	companies being a witness in this case?
18		A.	If so, I'm not aware of it.
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	3		Q.	Well, sir, the term browser is a term
	4	that is widely used within Microsoft, or at least was
	5	until this year; correct, sir?  
	6			MR. HEINER:  Objection.
	7			THE WITNESS:  We use the term browser,
	8	yes.
	9		Q.	BY MR. BOIES:  And you personally used
10	the term browser, did you not, sir?
11		A.	Yes, that term is used in quite a
12	variety of ways.
13		Q.	Including by you; correct, sir?
14		A.	Yes.
15		Q.	You've written e-mails about browsers;
16	correct, sir?
17		A.	I've written e-mails where the term
18	browser was used.  I wouldn't say it was necessarily
19	an e-mail about browsers.
20		Q.	Have you ever written an e-mail that
21	you considered to be about browsers, sir?
22		A.	I'll bet there's e-mail where the
23	primary subject relates to browsers.  I don't
24	remember a specific piece of e-mail.
25		Q.	And when you wrote e-mails using the
					520
	
	1	term browsers, you believed that people would
	2	understand what you meant by browsers; correct, sir?
	3		A.	I'm sure there was enough context in
	4	the e-mail that I felt I could communicate something
	5	of meaning.
	6		Q.	And you've used the term browser in
	7	dealing with people outside of Microsoft, have you
	8	not, sir?
	9		A.	Yes.  It's a term that I've used both
10	internally and externally.
11		Q.	And there are a lot of people outside
12	Microsoft that have written articles about browsers;
13	correct, sir?
14		A.	There's been articles about browsing
15	and the technology people use for browsing and
16	comparing the different -- how different companies do
17	that, and they used the term browser.
18		Q.	Yes.  The industry and Microsoft tracks
19	what is referred to as browser market share; correct,
20	sir?
21		A.	No.
22		Q.	No?  Does Microsoft track browser
23	market share?
24		A.	I've seen usage share.
25		Q.	You've seen usage share?
					521
	
	1		A.	Uh-huh.  But not -- market share
	2	usually refers to something related to -- not to
	3	usage.  And with browsers, I've seen mostly usage. 
	4	Now, some people might refer to that as a market
	5	share, but it's not a market share.
	6		Q.	What is a market share?
	7		A.	Well, when I think of a market share, I
	8	think of where you're comparing the revenue of one
	9	company to the revenue of another company.
10		Q.	The total revenue of a company?
11		A.	No, the revenue related to one
12	company's product to the revenue of another company's
13	product.
14		Q.	And that's what you think of when you
15	use the term market share; is that your testimony?
16		A.	Usually.
17		Q.	Are you aware of documents within
18	Microsoft that describe browser share as the
19	company's number one goal?
20		A.	No.  I'm aware of documents within Paul
21	Maritz's group that may have stated that.
22		Q.	Is Paul Maritz's group within
23	Microsoft?
24		A.	Yes, but his -- he doesn't set the
25	company-wide goals.
					522
	
	1		Q.	Mr. Maritz you identified last week as
	2	being a group vice-president; is that correct?
	3		A.	Uh-huh.  Several times.
	4		Q.	And he is the group vice-president with
	5	responsibility for Windows; is that correct?
	6		A.	That's among his responsibilities.
	7		Q.	And included in his responsibilities
	8	was Internet Explorer; is that correct?
	9		A.	Our browsing technology was part of
10	that group.
11		Q.	Was Internet Explorer part of that
12	group?
13		A.	Yes.
14		Q.	Now, did you ever tell Mr. Maritz that
15	browser share was not the company's number one goal?
16		A.	No.
17		Q.	You knew Mr. Maritz was telling people
18	that browser share was the company's number one goal,
19	did you not, sir?
20		A.	I knew that Mr. Maritz was saying to
21	people that the -- that a top goal and perhaps number
22	one goal for his group was browser usage share.
23		Q.	Now, you've put in the words "usage
24	share" there.  When Mr. Maritz was telling people
25	that browser share was the number one goal, was
					523
	
	1	Mr. Maritz saying browser usage share or just browser
	2	share, sir?
	3		A.	You'd have to ask him.  I think he
	4	meant usage share.
	5		Q.	I'm not asking what he meant.  And
	6	perhaps my question was unclear.  I'm asking what he
	7	said or wrote.  
	8			MR. HEINER:  Object to the question.
	9		Q.	BY MR. BOIES:  Do you understand the
10	question?
11		A.	What writings are we talking about?
12		Q.	Let me ask you the question, Mr. Gates,
13	since you're the witness.  Are you aware of any time
14	that Mr. Maritz wrote in an e-mail or said or
15	otherwise communicated to people that browser share
16	was the number one goal?
17		A.	The number one goal for what?
18		Q.	Just the number one goal for the
19	company, let's start with that.  Are you aware of any
20	time when Mr. Maritz said that?
21		A.	Where he said it was the number one
22	goal for the whole company?  
23		Q.	I didn't say the whole company.  I
24	didn't put in the word "whole," Mr. Gates.  And I
25	know you're very precise with words, so I want to
					524
	
	1	make sure the questions and answers meet.  
	2			The question is, are you aware of any
	3	instance in which Mr. Maritz, in words or in
	4	substance, communicated that browser share was the
	5	number one goal for the company?  And by "the
	6	company," I mean Microsoft.  
	7		A.	I don't remember any such case.
	8		Q.	Are you aware of any instance in which
	9	Mr. Maritz communicated in words or in substance that
10	browser share was the number one goal for his group?
11		A.	I think there was a point where he did
12	that.  I don't remember the document, but I think
13	there was a point.
14		Q.	Do you know why Mr. Maritz came to the
15	view that browser share was the number one goal?
16		A.	For his group?
17		Q.	Did he say for his group in the
18	communications --
19		A.	Well --
20		Q.	-- that you're talking about?
21		A.	It's not his position to set goals for
22	the entire company, so when he says something that's
23	a goal, it's certainly implied it's a goal for his
24	group.
25		Q.	Interpreting what Mr. Maritz has
					525
	
	1	communicated in light of that, do you know how 
	2	Mr. Maritz came to the view that browser share was
	3	the number one goal?
	4		A.	Well, I think he was aware of the
	5	increasing popularity of the Internet and the growing
	6	usage of the Internet and felt that all the many many
	7	innovations we were doing in Windows, that a
	8	particular focus had to be doing the best job on the
	9	Internet and Internet browsing features of the
10	operating system and seeing if we could innovate
11	enough to make people prefer to use that technology
12	from us.
13		Q.	Mr. Gates, isn't it the case that you
14	told Mr. Maritz that browser share was a very very
15	important goal and that's why he believed it?
16		A.	I guess now we're delving into the
17	inner workings of Paul Maritz's mind and how he comes
18	to conclusions?
19		Q.	Well, let me try to ask you a question
20	that won't require you to delve into anybody else's
21	mind.  
22			Did you tell Mr. Maritz that browser
23	share was a very very important goal?
24		A.	I know we talked about browser share
25	being important.
					526
	
	1		Q.	I'm not asking you what he said to you. 
	2	I'm not asking what topic you talked about.  I'm
	3	asking you whether you told Mr. Maritz that browser
	4	share was a very very important goal?
	5		A.	I remember that we agreed that it was
	6	an important goal.  I'm not sure which one of us
	7	reached that feeling before the other.
	8		Q.	Have you communicated to people other
	9	than Mr. Maritz within Microsoft that browser share
10	was a very very important goal?
11		A.	Well, you've used several times the
12	"very very" and I don't know if you're asking me
13	specifically about sometime where I used the words
14	"very very," is that the question?
15		Q.	Let me begin with that question.  Have
16	you communicated to people within Microsoft, other
17	than Mr. Maritz, that browser share was a very very
18	important goal, using those words?
19		A.	I don't remember using those words.
20		Q.	Have you communicated the substance of
21	that to people within Microsoft?
22		A.	Help me understand.  If you communicate
23	to people that something is important, is the
24	substance of that identical to communicating to them
25	it's very very important?
					527

Continued on page 2 of 4

Copyright 1999 The Washington Post Company

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