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A "Modest Proposal" on Torture

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A "Modest Proposal" on Torture

posted at 10/7/2007 2:59 PM EDT

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Eugene_Robinson

First post: 5/23/2007
Last post: 7/24/2009
Total posts: 79

Jonathan Swift was being satirical with his "modest proposal" that the Irish eliminate poverty and hunger by eating their young. Let me know if you agree that Swift would endorse my modest proposal: Bush administration officials who claim the "harsh" interrogation techniques being used on terrorism suspects are not torture should have to undergo those same techniques. Personally. Repeatedly.

We learned last week that two secret administration memos specifically authorize questioning techniques that international conventions deem torture. According to the New York Times, these include exposure to freezing temperatures, head-slapping and simulated drowning. President Bush, without denying or admitting what specific techniques have been used, said flatly that the United States does not torture prisoners. Clearly, he is using a narrow definition of torture: If we haven't actually put anybody on the rack or pulled out his fingernails, we haven't committed torture.

If that's true, then shouldn't the administration officials -- starting with the president himself -- who authorized these techniques be willing to experience them first-hand? Until George W. Bush can say, "Hey, I've been waterboarded, and it wasn't so bad," or Alberto Gonzales can say, "To tell the truth, spending those three days naked in a freezing-cold cell wasn't painful or anything," then I'll continue to believe that history will condemn this administration for a shocking lapse of moral judgment. Bush will be remembered as the president who tried to justify torture.

(Note: You might notice that I have made a couple of edits in the first paragraph of this post. I had assumed that the mention of Swift would establish that my intent is to shock the conscience, not persuade the rational mind. Maybe the second reference to Swift will do the trick.)

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A "Modest Proposal" on Torture

posted at 10/8/2007 5:42 AM EDT

davidrushworth

First post: 10/2/2007
Last post: 12/16/2008
Total posts: 28

"In its 2006 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the State Department condemned numerous countries, including Iran, North Korea, Tunisia and Libya, for torturing and abusing prisoners through techniques such as sleep deprivation, prolonged solitary confinement with sensory deprivation, long confinement in contorted positions, being forced to kneel or sit immobilized for long periods, hanging detainees by the arms and legs, submersion of the head in water, and threats of dog attacks. The criticized techniques are similar to those known to have been employed by the CIA."
(Human Rights Watch)

Presumably the list should now be:
Iran
North Korea
Tunisia
Libya
The United States of America.

One is judged by the company one keeps.

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modest proposal

posted at 10/8/2007 9:39 AM EDT

Lanark1

First post: 5/25/2007
Last post: 11/21/2008
Total posts: 173

At least to start with, police officers underwent taser 'treatment' themselves. Doctors and nurses practice some torturous techniques on each other. Seems only fair. Anyone who pronounces upon a questionable activity and authorizes its use, and claims it isn't torture should be willing to try it out. Maybe not the president or AG (tho it makes a pleasant fantasy), but at least the people directly involved (like the police and the taser). (Tho, judging by some recent videos, the police haven't been experiencing it themselves first any more...or - say it isn't so - they are in some instances somewhat lacking in empathy.) However, of course the whole thing boils down to definitions. Making me skip a meal is torture, but pulling out your fingernails is, sigh, one of those unfortunate necessities (and, really, it hurts me more than it does you, pass the ketchup).

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tortured comments

posted at 10/8/2007 11:24 AM EDT

mhr614

First post: 10/3/2007
Last post: 11/22/2009
Total posts: 66

Khalid Sheik Mohammed is captured. He was the mastermind of 9/11/01, a date that will live in infamy for some Americans and which others want to forget as soon as possible. Liberals have no desire to recall the day and much less who committed that atrocity. Sheik Mohammed knew everything the jihadists had planned. Would any liberal make it uncomfortable for the man until he talked? Of course not. Liberals would give the prisoner all the rights of US citizenship, so they would call a battery of ACLU lawyers to protect him. Many of us would make it very uncomfortable for the guy. I certainly would not do to him what the jihadists did to Daniel Berg. Liberals don't remember Berg either.

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Silly argument

posted at 10/8/2007 11:24 AM EDT

clydle

First post: 9/8/2007
Last post: 11/16/2007
Total posts: 17

Robinson's argument is so childish. If Robinson's argument makes any sense then the following must be true:

Does Robinson believe that suspected terrorists be held in custody and interrogated nicely? Then Robinson should allow himself to be held in custody and interrogated nicely.

Does Robinson believe that criminals should be put in jail? Then Robinson should be put in jail.

Does Robinson believe that Imus should have lost his job? Then Robinson should lose his job.

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Re: tortured comments

posted at 10/8/2007 11:54 AM EDT

wtyler

First post: 9/17/2007
Last post: 12/1/2007
Total posts: 3

Replying to:

Khalid Sheik Mohammed is captured. ....

Then Khalid Sheik Mohammed was tortured. Then Khalid Sheik Mohammed gave investigators whatever information would make the torture stop, whether or not it had any relationship to reality. Oddly enough, knowing that he had been captured, his Al Qaida colleagues altered plans to minimize the damage caused by his capture. Net result, a lot of American activity to act against plans that have been abandoned or altered. America loses its reputation, making other countries less willing to cooperate in fighting terrorists. Net win for Al Qaida. Duh.

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Re: Silly argument

posted at 10/8/2007 12:10 PM EDT

mobedda

First post: 9/6/2007
Last post: 6/13/2009
Total posts: 272

Replying to:

Does Robinson believe that suspected terrorists be held in custody and interrogated nicely? Then Robinson should allow himself to be held in custody and interrogated nicely.

Does Robinson believe that criminals should be put in jail? Then Robinson should be put in jail.

Does Robinson believe that Imus should have lost his job? Then Robinson should lose his job. Posted by clydle

Your reasoning is... well... absent. Police are subjected to Tasers during certification in order to better appreciate what the individuals on the other end are experiencing. You will notice that police are not shot during firearms training, and that is the pith of my point here: one is intended to bring under control without permanent harm, the other is very definitely intended to harm permanently.

Robinson’s point is [roughly; I'm typing this with an eye toward expediency] that the tactics being sold to us as not amounting to torture are actually dangerous and amount to aggravated assault.

Incidentally: just because the opposite of “torturous” might arguably be “nice” does not mean that somebody arguing against torture is arguing in favor of niceness.

I could go on, but I have a job.

PS: Don’t be afraid of nuanced thinking. You may grow to appreciate its relationship with the real world.

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Yes, But Does Torture Work?

posted at 10/8/2007 12:26 PM EDT

BlueTwo1

First post: 10/8/2007
Last post: 11/17/2009
Total posts: 95

Getting people to torture other people is easy. Getting people to behave rationally when the subject being interrogated is from a foreign culture who probably did us wrong is hard. KSM, the mastermind of 9/11, is a delusional yet gifted individual. It was he who penetrated the "tight" security of airliner cockpits. It was he who predicted hot jet fuel fires in modern, just-strong-enough buildings would collapse them. He wanted to make a statement about U.S. policy in the Middle East, and he succeeded. The U.S. Government went nuts. It attacked the wrong country. It spent money on the unnecessary and didn't spend money on the necessary. It got Our Nation stuck in the middle of a predictable civil war. It committed crimes based on "opinions" from government lawyers who valued their relationship with power more than their own sworn oaths to uphold the Constitution. It is knee-slappingly funny to read Conservative reaction to the situation in which they opine that Libruls want to provide a comfortable prison stay for our enemies. Cafe Lattes, comfortable beds, virgins on call 24/7. In this ridiculous scenario, a prison cell without torture is tantamount to a lengthy stay at a tony resort. The government tortured a guy BEFORE they were prepared to ask the right questions. The least our government can do is *prepare* for interrogations. If all you want to do is act out your punishment fantasies, then by all means torture. Do it as a reality TV show. Consult with S&M practitioners. Read about the Inquisition. In the end, torture sends a clear message to the subject. It does *NOT* extract reliable information. Even in the case of the proverbial ticking time bomb, torture is no guarantee that the subject will tell you where it may found.

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Re: tortured comments

posted at 10/8/2007 12:27 PM EDT

floomby

First post: 5/24/2007
Last post: 3/1/2008
Total posts: 7

Replying to:

...Liberals have no desire to recall the day and much less who committed that atrocity...

This is typical of the politics of rage. Liberals are perfectly capable of rage. We just refuse to let it govern our response. Rage does not cause people to act intelligently. Thrashing about and roaring like a wounded bear have resulted in neither an intelligent nor a successful foreign policy, as the past six years have proven.

Replying to:

...Sheik Mohammed knew everything the jihadists had planned.

How do you know that for sure?

If you do know that for sure, then why is torture necessary?

Torture is a medieval technology. Modern interrogation, that actually works, has some 35 more successful techniciques for extracting information. They all involve making the subject think the interrogator is somehow sympathetic. This is not the same as *being* sympathetic.

Replying to:

I certainly would not do to him what the jihadists did to Daniel Berg.

Then, are you saying that you and I agree, that torture and murder are in fact evil?

Replying to:

Liberals don't remember Berg either.

Actually, I recall that the jihadists weren't trying to extract information from Berg. They were trying to prove that they were cruel and ruthless. Is that an acceptable foreign policy objective for a proud nation?

Posted by mhr614

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Thank you for saying that

posted at 10/8/2007 12:45 PM EDT

KarenHedwigBackman

First post: 10/8/2007
Last post: 10/8/2007
Total posts: 2

I've thought about subjecting various members of the Bush administration to the torture techniques they espouse, but I never thought anyone from the Post or any other MSM in this country would dare to say that.

I particularly would like to see Cheney subjected to such treatment.

Then we wouldn't have to prod the always reluctant Bush kissing Democrats in Congress to impeach him.

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Re: tortured comments

posted at 10/8/2007 12:48 PM EDT

choctawridge

First post: 10/8/2007
Last post: 10/8/2007
Total posts: 2

Replying to:

Most of us northeast liberals had some connection to someone who died in the twin towers on 9/11. So don't you dare say that we do not remember that day. CIA and police professionals will tell anyone who will listen that torture does not work. Additionally, torture brings us down to the level of the jihadists who tortured and beheaded Daniel Berg. mhr614 lower your testosterone level a little and grow up. I agree with you, Mr. Robinson.

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Khalid Sheik Mohammed?

posted at 10/8/2007 12:49 PM EDT

KarenHedwigBackman

First post: 10/8/2007
Last post: 10/8/2007
Total posts: 2

I thought the man was safely ensconced in jail well before September 11, 2001.

What had he to do with the attacks on that date?

What about this fellow, Osama bin Laden? And a bunch of Saudi Arabian fellow travelers?

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His name is Daniel Pearl

posted at 10/8/2007 1:07 PM EDT

freesolo88

First post: 10/8/2007
Last post: 10/8/2007
Total posts: 2

Some of us, regardless of label, remember the man's name (Daniel Pearl, not Berg). Get your facts straight before you attempt to distort them for your own political gain.

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Re: His name is Daniel Pearl

posted at 10/8/2007 1:12 PM EDT

choctawridge

First post: 10/8/2007
Last post: 10/8/2007
Total posts: 2

Replying to:

Some of us, regardless of label, remember the man's name (Daniel Pearl, not Berg). Get your facts straight before you attempt to distort them for your own political gain. Posted by freesolo88

You're right. I am so sorry.

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Think of it as quality control

posted at 10/8/2007 1:35 PM EDT

fzdybel

First post: 5/25/2007
Last post: 11/9/2009
Total posts: 128

I'm not sure Bush should have to undergo these procedures, but somebody writing the legal opinion should certainly do so. Otherwise, how can they really say for sure that the technique doesn't reach the "organ failure" level?

If there are going to be legal opinions on torture, then these should be informed opinions.

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What CAN we do about this administration?

posted at 10/8/2007 1:35 PM EDT

Heron

First post: 9/1/2007
Last post: 11/24/2009
Total posts: 254

Oh, Mr. Robinson, it'd be fitting if someone could turn the tables on the people who sanctioned torture and imprisonment for our "enemies" while withholding the right to challenge this mistreatment in court.

This is just a pipe dream, though. Is there anything we ordinary citizens CAN do about this administration, besides wait it out?

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Re: tortured comments

posted at 10/8/2007 2:02 PM EDT

mampdx

First post: 10/8/2007
Last post: 10/8/2007
Total posts: 2

Replying to:

I certainly would not do to him what the jihadists did to Daniel Berg. Liberals don't remember Berg either. Posted by mhr614

Excuse me, but we liberals remember enough to know the gentleman's NAME, which was Daniel PEARL.

And if "simulated drowning" was torture when the Japanese did it to Americans during WWII, it's still torture no matter what euphemism Bush and Gonzalez want to apply. As John McCain has testified and the case of KSM demonstrates, what torture results in is a lot of crap confessionals. We liberals also recognize that real life is not "24," where the "evildoer" so conveniently confesses in the nick of time when Jack Bauer beats him up.

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Re: What CAN we do about this administration?

posted at 10/8/2007 2:11 PM EDT

freesolo88

First post: 10/8/2007
Last post: 10/8/2007
Total posts: 2

I soo agree. I'm quite tired of reading the pundit columns about how Americans are just too tuned into their iPods and sales at Walmart to care about what's going on. BALOGNA! POPPYCOCK! We've demonstrated in the streets, voted in 2006 (not to mention in 2004, despite another stolen election) and routinely signal our repulsion for this occupation in various polls. Our elected representatives have ignored the wishes of the American people. Democracy has failed on this subject.

And let's also dispel this notion that the "war" has a "victory" or a "defeat" just around the corner. This unjust, immoral endeavor has never had a defined cause, and democrats fall into the trap over and over again when they debate whether or not we can win. They continually let this administration frame the debate, and so they will continue to lose it until they pull the plug. It boggles my mind that Congressional democrats and republicans are more interested in protecting their six-figure lifestyles over the blood and treasure of this entire nation - past and future. "Sorry Joe, with your severed benefits and limbs. I didn't want to be lose my seat in the house. I've got boat payments."

Talk about Terror. This administration produces it throughout the world: in its wars, in its rhetoric, in its abuse of our military, in its puppet-dictator approach to its citizens, to its court and legislature, and through the use of torture. What have we become?