Admissions 101: College Admissions Advice From Jay Mathews

Good Grades in Easy Classes, or Mediocre Grades in Tough Ones?

Forums » Admissions 101 » Good Grades in Easy Classes, or Mediocre Grades in Tough Ones?

You must be logged in to contribute. Log in | Register

1 2 >> Last

Forums » washingtonpost.com forums » Admissions 101 » Good Grades in Easy Classes, or Mediocre Grades in Tough Ones?

Good Grades in Easy Classes, or Mediocre Grades in Tough Ones?

posted at 6/19/2009 2:26 PM EDT

*Moderator*

Jay_Mathews

First post: 5/21/2007
Last post: 11/27/2009
Total posts: 271

I have been hearing from a few parents whose high school children are struggling with the GPA side of choosing AP or IB courses. They and their kids are worried that if they take AP or IB, they will get nothing better than Bs, and maybe some Cs. They fear this will take them out of the running for selective schools. They are right, of course, if they are talking about Harvard, Stanford or Duke. But they don't have a chance of getting into those schools if they DON'T take AP, so they are really talking about the next tier of schools, where the situation, at least to me, is murkier. My view is that a student wanting to attend any school that accepts less than half of applicants should take at last two AP courses and tests, since not to do so would make them look weak and since they are going to need that experience to adjust to such colleges' standards. Even if they get Cs, there is still a chance some school in that group will take them because they have other strengths, and will give them points for struggling with the AP beast. If the school accepts more than half of applicants, then the C in AP is not going to be a problem. They will be glad the kid took a hard course. That student will have an advantage over the many applicants to such schools that did not take AP or IB. Am I wrong? What is your experience with this delicate strategizing issue?

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

posted at 6/19/2009 9:21 PM EDT

eloquensa

First post: 3/11/2008
Last post: 8/12/2009
Total posts: 35

My strategy suggestion is a little different from yours - I don't know about the college front in the C-in-AP/IB-or-A-in-regular argument, but if the student is a little more strategic in course and teacher selection it's a lot easier to avoid that dreaded C.

From my experience with IB, and my friends' experiences with both IB and AP, all IB/AP courses are not equal; some have far more work than others. This may be the inherent nature of the subject, due to the teacher or maybe just the students' preparation level. But they all have the AP/IB label. If one genuinely cannot cope with the heavy AP/IB courses but still wants the resume boost, then pick the easier courses with lighter workloads which are still branded AP/IB. Alternatively, when there is more than one teacher teaching the course, cross a lot of fingers to get the easier teacher(s). I know last year my English teacher offered far more extra credit and a much more relaxed policy on late work than the other two English teachers, and many of my friends at other schools say they have observed the same trends. It takes a bit of talking-to-seniors and may seem unorthodox but is a pretty good last resort if need be. I only discovered I had the easy teachers after conferring with my friends about our comparative workloads, but after that they were banging down their GCs's doors to switch :P

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Re: .

posted at 6/19/2009 11:48 PM EDT

jaymathews

First post: 9/13/2008
Last post: 11/11/2009
Total posts: 39

[QUOTE]My strategy suggestion is a little different from yours - I don't know about the college front in the C-in-AP/IB-or-A-in-regular argument, but if the student is a little more strategic in course and teacher selection it's a lot easier to avoid that dreaded C.

Brilliant strategy. Thank you.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Re: .

posted at 6/20/2009 8:01 AM EDT

researcher2

First post: 10/17/2008
Last post: 11/26/2009
Total posts: 849

Replying to:

If one genuinely cannot cope with the heavy AP/IB courses but still wants the resume boost, then pick the easier courses with lighter workloads which are still branded AP/IB.
Posted by eloquensa

This is a good suggestion, and gets to the root of Jay's "dilemma" He set it up so that it seemed students who aren't shooting for Harvard/Yale etc., can get a C or two in their AP/IB courses and still get into a school in that tier below Harvard/Yale.

From what I have seen students' truly can't have a C or two in their AP/IB classes and hope to get into the quality schools even with the extra "stuff" Jay alludes to. Why, because there are plenty of kids who get at least a B in those courses and also have the extra "stuff" applying to the tier of colleges below Harvard etc.

Since so many kids are applying to college these days, and so many are taking AP/IB courses it is much more difficult for the average student to compete. Maybe a decade ago an average student who attempted the "college level" course could get into a 2nd tier school with a C in such a course, but now it seems that student will need to focus on the tier 3 schools.

I do want to point out though that there is nothing wrong with those tier 3 schools, and to me that is the crux of today's issues with college.

Not only are all students pushed to take AP/IB courses, but they are all expected to attend college and then in some areas (like mine) people get obsessed about "name brand" colleges and the stress is incredible for our kids. Individual interests and individual skills get pummelled, in my opinion.

We no longer recognize that teens are diverse. We no longer recognize the value of certain skills and interests.

If we stop insisting that all kids should take AP/IB courses, or that all kids have to be on the college track, we won't have to worry about the dilemma of "is it okay to have a C in an AP/IB course"

Alternatively Jay, if you insist that all kids "benefit" from AP/IB courses even if they get a 1 or 2 (3 on IB?) exams then you can't set up this dilemma as you have in this post. Clearly students getting 1's or 2's might have difficulty even pulling out a C.

My frustration with your AP obsession Jay is you have helped greatly in creating these dilemmas that shouldn't exist. You have gone from your "Harvard Schmarvard" days to one where you have helped create the stress many high school kids face these days.

No longer are individual talents and interests appreciated (who cares about the kid who is truly talented in, and interested in auto mechanics, carpentry, quality brick laying, cosmetology, culinary arts etc., etc., ) all kids "must go to college and be on the college track." All kids must take AP/IB. Even if they get a 1 or 2 they "benefit" Where is the benefit when you then show this dilemma?

I am trying to say your post shouldn't be needed. We should recognize as a society that actually college isn't a necessity, that all students don't have to take AP/IB courses, that if they do choose to attend college tier 3 institutions are fine colleges, that if you are getting C's in tough courses your life isn't over (but perhaps the public ivies aren't in your future).

The notion that all students should take AP/IB is the notion that set your "dilemma" up. Please Jay, stop creating the additional stress. Stop hyping "college for all" Go back to your "Harvard Schmarvard" days which even though, obviously, you were addressing college, you seemed to recognize that individual interests were important and group think/name brand weren't.

I wish there was an education reporter out there that focused on how incredible teens are; how not all teens need to go to college to be "educated" or "talented"

If we truly believe Howard Gardner's stance on multiple intelligences, then we need to stop this obsession that academics are the only way to show one is talented.

We need to recognize that there are many kids who are academically talented. Who should go on to college and then graduate school (medical or law too). But, we also need to recognize that academics aren't everyone's "thing"

And we shouldn't force all students to think all should go to college, all should take AP/IB. Those students who aren't academically inclined are essentially being told they are "no good" Why do you think the drop out rate is increasing?

It is because we are forcing kids into tracks they aren't interested in (or not able to handle).

Sorry for the rant; I am just so tired of this AP/IB obsession and I truly fear we are harming kids rather than enriching them when we insist on the notion that all kids benefit from college academic track.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

excellent rant researcher2

posted at 6/20/2009 1:33 PM EDT

lisamc31

First post: 6/22/2007
Last post: 11/30/2009
Total posts: 4632

Very well said. I'm not a huge Howard Gardner fan but I do believe that schools should really do a much better job at IDENTIFYING and DEVELOPING students' individual talents.

You know I bucked the system with my own kids as they both attended a half-day performing arts high school. My son never took an AP/IB course, was a B+ student with some Honors courses, went on to earn his BFA in Lighting Design from a SUNY and is a head lighting designer with a major firm in NYC.

It was the drama director at our regular HS who spotted his love for crew/lighting and steered him to the outside program.

Not the Guidance Counselor. Certainly not his Math or English teacher.

Learning shouldn't be painful. Pushing kids into AP who simply aren't desirous of that type of schooling at that age, stressing over the exams, failing the exams, dragging down their GPA.... I dunno, I just don't see that as a positive.

I'd also venture that a lot of these AP/IB kids who have no social life and are doing nothing but homework when they are in high school tend to go hog wild crazy when they get to college. I've seen it with my daughter's friends.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Okay - my view

posted at 6/20/2009 11:05 PM EDT

grcxx3

First post: 3/6/2008
Last post: 11/28/2009
Total posts: 886

I have friend whose daughter is the same age as my younger son (rising junior). They are good friends.

The mom's belief is that GPA (not course rigor) is what counts, so she has had her daughter take all regular/academic classes, no pre-AP/AP classes (which carry a 1.0 extra point). As a result, her daughter has a 4.0 average and is currently in the top 20% of her class.

Now, my younter son has 1 year in an IB/MYP school, so his main subjects came in counting as pre-AP classes. He also came in with a mix of A's and B's (and C's in Spanish...oh well...). This past year he took a mix of pre-AP and regular/academic subjects. His ending year GPA is a 3.6 and his class rank is in the 35% area.

Now, the National Honor Society GPA cutoff is 3.75. My friend's daughter was inducted into NHS in May (with my older son). If my younger son is lucky, he will make the cutoff GPA next year...otherwise, he will certainly make it by senior year.

There is VERY little likelihood of our children competing for a spot at the same school because our values/expectations are very different.....but IF they were....who would the adcom folks want? The one who made the easy As in the regular/academic classes, or the one who chose to challenge himself with more demanding classes (risking getting a B rather than an A)? Both are involved in sports....her's in soccer, mine in golf.

I would certainly hope that the willingness/desire to take more challenging courses would work in his favor.

NOW......on the other hand.....I WILL NOT force my children to take AP/advanced classes JUST for the purpose of taking them. We have picked/chosen the advanced courses that make sense for our boys. English does not make sense for them (and my mother - the English teacher - agrees). Science and math do make sense (okay...DH and I are both science majors!).

However, my younger son - while on the advanced tract for math (a year ahead) will take the regular/academic class, not the pre-AP. This was a strategic decision based on many things...including the fact that - if I had had my way 10 years ago - he would be a rising sophomore, not junior.

But that's a WHOLE other topic! :)

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Re: Okay - my view

posted at 6/21/2009 8:39 AM EDT

researcher2

First post: 10/17/2008
Last post: 11/26/2009
Total posts: 849

Replying to:

There is VERY little likelihood of our children competing for a spot at the same school because our values/expectations are very different.....but IF they were....who would the adcom folks want? The one who made the easy As in the regular/academic classes, or the one who chose to challenge himself with more demanding classes (risking getting a B rather than an A)? Both are involved in sports....her's in soccer, mine in golf.

I would certainly hope that the willingness/desire to take more challenging courses would work in his favor.

Posted by grcxx3

I know these two views exist, and understand both perspectives.

Since you son is "risking" getting B's in those challenging courses he would be the one admitted.

Jay's premise was telling kids to take them and getting C's would be okay, even for schools in the tier below Harvard. His premise is not correct, in my opinion, because there are students like your son taking the courses of their own choosing, who are capable of handling the work (thus earning the B or A).

As stated in my rant, Jay's urging kids to risk getting C's and 1's or 2's on the exam and telling them they will benefit, even get into tier 2 schools is misleading at best, and more than likely harmful when they work hard to even get the C's and get rejected from those tier 2 schools.

Students in your sons' "category" are the ones who will get into those tier 2 schools, not the C students forced into those classes on the premise that all students should take AP/IB courses.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

a teacher's view

posted at 6/21/2009 8:54 AM EDT

lisamc31

First post: 6/22/2007
Last post: 11/30/2009
Total posts: 4632

Well written blog:

http://www.eduratireview.com/2009/06/on-uses-and-misuses-of-advanced.html

"If the reason is to improve how the school "ranks" on an artificial index, such a use of AP is truly a misuse, and may represent an abuse - not only of the academics, but of the students. If you think the word "abuse" too harsh, then perhaps substitute "academic malpractice."

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Re: Okay - my view

posted at 6/21/2009 12:12 PM EDT

grcxx3

First post: 3/6/2008
Last post: 11/28/2009
Total posts: 886

Replying to:

As stated in my rant, Jay's urging kids to risk getting C's and 1's or 2's on the exam and telling them they will benefit, even get into tier 2 schools is misleading at best, and more than likely harmful when they work hard to even get the C's and get rejected from those tier 2 schools.

Students in your sons' "category" are the ones who will get into those tier 2 schools, not the C students forced into those classes on the premise that all students should take AP/IB courses.
Posted by researcher2

I don't like artificial "requirements" for getting into AP/IB classes, but I also don't think pushing kids into those classes is good for anyone. There are kids who are ready and capable of handling the classes and kids who aren't. The ones who are ready deserve to be in the academically challenging environment an AP/IB class offers.

But the ones who aren't quite ready for those advanced classes also need to be in a challenging environment and the regular classes often don't provide that challenge. There are also kids who should be taking vo-tech classes and I am glad that our district offers many such options.

I also think that when deciding if a student should take a AP/IB class - there is a difference between a kid who has to work hard to get a C and one who might end up with a C because of needing to work hard to get a B. Unfortunately, there is no way to distinguish that on a report card/transcript unless - as our school does - the actual number grade is listed, not just the letter grade.

My older son bounced back and forth between Cs and Bs in APUSH. He worked hard to get the Bs and managed to pull a B for each semester, but it will clearly show on his transcript that it was a low B.

As for how colleges look at all this......who knows. I do think it is misleading to imply that simply taking AP/IB classes (no matter the grade or score earned) will make you more attractive to the better schools. It's nice to dream - but at some point reality needs to set in.

One of the most interesting things I am seeing now with the group of students I know who have just graduated is that the students/parents who did their homework and made choices (safeties, probables, reaches) based on the realities of their particular situations are the ones who have come out happy. The ones who just "assumed" that they would get into their preferred top-ranked schools (for whatever reason) and didn't bother looking at any others options are not so happy.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Re: Good Grades in Easy Classes, or Mediocre Grades in Tough Ones?

posted at 6/21/2009 2:46 PM EDT

jdsher00

First post: 6/21/2009
Last post: 6/21/2009
Total posts: 1

I don't think these gamesmanship questions give admissions officers enough credit. It is their job, in admissions offices, to figure out how intelligent kids are, and whether the kids have challenged themselves. I can tell you, as a former interviewer for admissions at a top engineering school, the lack of challenging courses speaks to me of a lack of ambition and does not impress me. I'd much rather see a kid show some determination to succeed, even if they don't make it through with flying colors the first time.

In any case, it's admissions officers' job to make these calls. Parents who think they're going to fool the admissions office by making their kid do things that aren't appropriate for the kid are being silly. There's always the possibility they might get away with it, especially at very large schools that lack the resources to scrutinize each application closely, but do these parents really want to bet their kid's future on their ability to put one over on the admissions office?

Kids should be who they are. That will make it easier for admissions officers to find out who they are, and it will save the kid the embarrassment of looking foolish if and when an admissions officer finds out they're not who they're pretending to be (or who their parents are forcing them to pretend to be). Kids who are themselves are most impressive to admissions officers and are most likely to be placed in a college where they will thrive and go on to achieve the best in life. Nobody does themselves any good by playing games and pretending. Kids should take the classes that interest and appropriately challenge them, and that further their career goals if those are developed.

Having said that, it is a worse sin in my mind for a kid to take a class that's too easy than a class that's too hard. If I were considering an application, my reaction to the student whose parent forced them to take easy classes just to ace them would be, what kind of game are you trying to play with me? I wouldn't want to see C's either, but at least I'd feel the student who challenged him/herself was being honest with me.

I really don't know why some parents think gamesmanship is a responsible way to approach their children's education. Love your children, folks, for the young people that they are; encourage them to get better at their skills, recognize their non-academic as well as academic talents, and encourage them to reach as far as they reasonably can. Teach them the values of hard work, honesty and integrity, instead of playing silly games with their educational future.

Bottom line? If you don't think you can handle the AP class, don't take it. If you want to show some ambition, take it and work your butt off. But don't take an easy class for gamesmanship reasons, imagining a selective college is going to be impressed with you for taking the easy way out.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

An A is an A and a B is a B

posted at 6/21/2009 2:50 PM EDT

bw1951

First post: 6/21/2009
Last post: 6/21/2009
Total posts: 1

Thirty years ago my high school told me that colleges really respected my school and treated a B as a A. BS. Later I learned that college admission officers never heard of my school and the whole notion never made senses.

High schools and colleges just make up stuff. They have a business to run. They don't have time to turn every B or B+ from x school into a different grade. Probably 90% of admission are done by ranking the gpa plus the sat or whatever. After that first cut, there may be an interest to look more closely at the possibles.

Some colleges may actually appreciate a B, but go out of state and there is no time or money to make up a make belief grading system.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

College Admissions

posted at 6/21/2009 3:21 PM EDT

novaone6

First post: 6/21/2009
Last post: 6/21/2009
Total posts: 1

Both my kids went to a good Northern Virginia public high school, W. T. Woodson. Both kids took 6 AP classes, one as sophomore, two as junior, three as senior.

The older was much more willing to work hard and took the most challenging APs. He did not get qualifying grades on two of the AP tests and did not rank as AP Scholar. He did, however, graduate with a 4.06 GPA and was accepted into UVA, early decision.

The younger took the easiest AP classes, got 4 or 5 on each test, ranked as an AP Scholar, and graduated with a 3.97 GPA. He got into VT, early decision, and arrived with 18 college credits.

Since moving to Northern Virginia in the early 1990s, I have heard horror stories about kids getting into college. My kids are not the genius types from GT or TJ, but they did not seem to have the problems so often discussed. And I think AP classes are one of the main reasons.

APs are a slam dunk. APs helped my kids get much higher GPAs than they would have gotten without the courses, and certainly were the key to having the GPAs needed to get into UVA and VT.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

AP courses lead to better SAT scored

posted at 6/21/2009 5:00 PM EDT

ProfessorWrightBSU

First post: 1/8/2008
Last post: 9/15/2009
Total posts: 13

Students who are exposed to more rigorous thought, have to have a more solid understanding of the foundation in order to build on it.

Some will have to study harder to get there, others are genetically gifted.

All of them, including the one who make B's and C's instead of A's and B's would tend to do better on a standardized test because of the depth of their understanding across a wider range of scientific and mathematical principles.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Quality of AP/IB students is major draw

posted at 6/21/2009 6:02 PM EDT

dadbinder

First post: 6/21/2009
Last post: 6/21/2009
Total posts: 1

Many or most AP/IB class students are interested and/or motivated to learn the material and constructively contribute to the class. This alone makes such classes superior and more worthwhile to most classes given in high school. The major problem in most high school classrooms is the presence of a "critical mass" of disruptive and destructive students who STEAL educational opportunities from fellow students. At least in the AP/IB classes learning is respected and encouraged by the community. This alone makes the AP/IB class more worthwhile for students and teacher. A sad observation.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Grades vs. Class rigor

posted at 6/21/2009 6:29 PM EDT

12191946

First post: 2/3/2008
Last post: 11/12/2009
Total posts: 27

1. The original push for a student to take 2 AP classes 10 years ago has morphed into the push to take 6 of these classes today. And the comment made that all AP classes were not created equal is more than correct. This is especially true where the concept of the taking of a prerequisite course is ignored, and the AP course is taken INSTEAD of its prerequisite.
2. A college in demand can really call the shots. Money issues skew the demand for state schools, so that the demands for getting into them far outstrip the academic rigor required once the student arrives.
3. I continue in my quest to have each student look at at least one small liberal arts school during their college search.
John Dickert
Mount Vernon Farms

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Do more AP classes dilute standards?

posted at 6/21/2009 7:47 PM EDT

Aprogressiveindependent

First post: 9/27/2008
Last post: 11/30/2009
Total posts: 83

I agree with the persons who said there seems to be a near obsession with encouraging/pressuring more students to take AP/IB classes and how teachers of such classes vary considerably in how academically rigorous their "advanced" classes are. Having considerably more students in AP classes may almost inevitably diminish the academic content of such classes. Many high schools already have the dilemma of higher graduation requirements resulting in either more students failing, if standards are maintained, or standards being diluted so more students can pass and graduate. The national and state overall results of AP tests should be listed in one of these columns, although there is also the question as to how high are the academic standards reflected in the tests themselves. Perhaps the scores of AP tests should be numerical like the SAT and other college entrance exams, instead of arguably vague scores within a very limited range.

Many parents pressure their kids and sometimes their kids' teachers for high grades, concerned a B here and there will preclude their possibilities of getting into elite universities. Such obsessive preoccupation with grades is often counter-productive for students and teachers. There needs to be some flexibility for students who are late bloomers or whose grades may fall during a semester or two because of partly external circumstances, such as living in dysfunctional households. Community colleges offer students who did not "excel" in high school, using traditional standards, to have a chance to be accepted by many so-called second tier and maybe some supposed first tier colleges.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Results for two tests in 2008

posted at 6/21/2009 8:03 PM EDT

Aprogressiveindependent

First post: 9/27/2008
Last post: 11/30/2009
Total posts: 83

As I noted in my previous post, I am curious as to national results of AP tests, so I looked up the results for the United States and World history AP tests in 2008. About 51% of students who took each of these tests received a score of 1 or 2.

These results strongly suggest about half of students taking AP tests in at least these two subjects, and apparently not all students taking AP classes take the tests, either are not well prepared by their teachers for the tests and/or did not learn much of what was taught in the classes.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Value of higher degrees

posted at 6/21/2009 10:05 PM EDT

pheasantfriend

First post: 9/24/2008
Last post: 6/21/2009
Total posts: 8

Today a lot of people are getting business degrees or ending up with degrees that I consider general degrees. Some of my younger relatives got degrees that when they graduated they did not know what they were going to do with i.e. political science etc.
A lot of jobs today years ago would not warrant a degree. You learned mainly on the job.Banking,floor manager in retail and human resource manager. To me employers like a degree in anything as it gives them a heads-up on individuals they or fellow employees don't know personally.sort of like ok you were'nt doing nothing for the last 4-5 years

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

silly criteria

posted at 6/22/2009 8:27 AM EDT

TinMan2

First post: 1/24/2009
Last post: 8/24/2009
Total posts: 7

The unfortunate consequence of questionable names and numbers assigned as criteria is that it doesn't leave ample room for course quality. As a professional in a technical area I find college graduates are frequently more focused on leadership and number generation than a good product. I suspect the same is true in education. The consequence on industry is filth, not only does it make it impossible for any child from a truly diverse setting (like Africa), to compete. But these fledgling jerks justify statistical manipulating statistics with petty lies instead of producing effective quality because numbers make us a leader.

The fact is criteria is ok, as a measure when no one knows what's being measured. The broad measure is what we understand to be quality at a local level. Then we can find the teacher who inspires, bridges the gap, and raises the bar.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

Re: Good Grades in Easy Classes, or Mediocre Grades in Tough Ones?

posted at 6/22/2009 10:22 AM EDT

drrico

First post: 12/13/2007
Last post: 11/18/2009
Total posts: 228

Replying to:

My view is that a student wanting to attend any school ***that accepts less than half of applicants*** should take at last two AP courses and tests, since not to do so would make them look weak and since they are going to need that experience to adjust to such colleges' standards.
Posted by Jay_Mathews

Of the 4,000 colleges and universities in the United States, this criterion applies to exactly 127 of them. And that includes the Harvard/Stanford/Duke schools that Jay says he doesn't want to include; I don't know where he draws that line, but if you draw it at 25% there are 30 institutions above it (and such places as Northwestern, USC, Washington & Lee, William & Mary, and UVa would be on the "bad" side of that line). I find it difficult to think that that tiny group should be used as the normative standard.

I have worked at three institutions above the 50% line and three below it, and at each institution we have encouraged students to challenge themselves. While our admissions staff doesn't convert every grade, we do know the difference between schools that offer challenges and schools that don't, schools that are too small to offer AP or IB or even calculus. If a student has a 4.0 GPA and 1300 SATs, we will wonder why we don't see AP or IB on his transcript and suspect he didn't try very hard unless he comes from a small rural high school; if another student has a 3.6 GPA and 1200 SATs and four APs, we will recognize her as someone willing to seek out challenges.

Report Abuse Discussion Policy

1 2 >> Last

Forums » Admissions 101 » Good Grades in Easy Classes, or Mediocre Grades in Tough Ones?

Jobs | Cars | Real Estate | Rentals | Classifieds

SEARCH:

Search Archives

The Washington Post Company: Information and Other Post Co. Websites

Help | Contact Us

washingtonpost.com

Groups