Admissions 101: College Admissions Advice From Jay Mathews

Are Legacy Admits Really That Happy?

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Are Legacy Admits Really That Happy?

posted at 2/26/2009 10:42 AM EST

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Jay_Mathews

First post: 5/21/2007
Last post: 11/27/2009
Total posts: 271

I am reading an interesting new book from Princeton University Press: "Taming the River: Negotiating the Academic, Financial, and Social Currents in Selective Colleges and Universities" by four careful scholars. It is about the barriers to selective college admission for poor and minority applicants. I may have other things to say about the book later, but one recommendation struck me as interesting. Their surveys found that minority students who were likely beneficiaries of affirmative action were less satisfied with college than others. The authors suggest college officials might be inadvertently creating a stigma that attaches to those students, that they had not deserved their acceptance letters. The authors recommended that "administrators at selective colleges and universities should take a cue from the other two affirmative action programs they currently run--for the children of alumni and for people with athletic talent--and present minority affirmative action in an equally positive and affirmative light." My reaction is this: many of the legacy admits I have known do NOT see their legacy status in a positive light. I know some who have tried to hide it, even though their applications were very strong, because they felt that people would assume they were admitted undeservedly.

I suspect at very selective schools, athletic admits might feel the same way. Am I wrong? Should we just acknowledge that our flawed admissions systems at selective schools, with so many special cases, is going to produce those feelings and there is not much we can do about it?

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Sorry, Jay

posted at 2/27/2009 1:47 AM EST

Cal_Lanier

First post: 5/24/2007
Last post: 11/18/2009
Total posts: 261

"I suspect at very selective schools, athletic admits might feel the same way. Am I wrong?"

Yes, you're wrong. Athletes feel as if they were hired to do a job. They don't have feelings of inadequacy.

And your anecdotal evidence about legacy admits isn't anything that you should offer as equivalent to the data from this book. I very much doubt that most legacies spare their admission a second thought.

What you are blatantly ignoring, Jay, is that legacy admits don't get anywhere near the same bump that affirmative action admits do. Only 6% of African Americans get above 600 on either section of the SAT. That's around 2000 African Americans, or enough to fill 10 elite schools with about 10% African Americans having scores that aren't nearly as high as the white and Asian kids do, but are at least in the same ballpark.

That's the *best* it gets, Jay. Very, very few legacy admits are getting into Harvard with 600 SATs in math and reading.

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Legacy priorities

posted at 2/27/2009 8:18 AM EST

12191946

First post: 2/3/2008
Last post: 11/12/2009
Total posts: 27

On the other hand there are some schools that encourage legacies. It is mostly a result of marriages resulting from relationships begun in college. My son met two women in college his freshman year that dicovered that both their mothers had been roommates at the school, (the girls being roommates in an adjoining room) and they both had copies of pictures taken of them at age two in full college gear. Often these are student who have been exposed to the college from an early age, visiting with their parents for some alumnae function.
As parents of college graduates they receive the kind of home support that encourages them to be prepared for the rigors of college life. For the college, they have a happy family that is more willing to contribute to the college's endowment.
John Dickert
Mount Vernon Farms

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My $0.02

posted at 3/1/2009 5:08 PM EST

CrimsonWife

First post: 3/1/2009
Last post: 3/16/2009
Total posts: 4

I deliberately chose NOT to go to my dad's Ivy League alma mater because I wasn't sure whether I'd gotten in on my own merits. The rep who visited my high school had told my guidance counselor that the university reserves 25% of their acceptances for legacies. I was salutatorian of my class and had strong test scores, extracurriculars, and honors/awards so I might very well have been accepted had I not been a legacy. But I knew for sure that I'd gotten into Stanford on my own so that's where I decided to go.

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Legacies

posted at 3/1/2009 6:48 PM EST

patrickmattimore1

First post: 6/12/2007
Last post: 11/18/2009
Total posts: 446

Legacy admits. Development admits. Celebrity kid admits. Children of faculty admits. Under-represented minority admits. Title IX sports admits. Take your pick. Hooked admits are everywhere at highly selective universities. I agree in part with what Cal wrote- I think it's unlikely that a legacy admit gives her admission much of a second thought. After all, unlike CrimsonWife (who chose to go someplace else) the legacy has chosen to attend as a legacy and nine times out of ten her color won't tip anyone off in class every day to the fact that she got a special boost getting in.
However, legacies are admitted to the most selective universities at rates 2-4 times higher than the overall rates of admission (Daniel Golden, "The Price of Admission").
While Cal is likely correct that without something else those legacy kids are not being accepted with low 600's at the top schools, whereas minorities might be, legacies still get a sizable boost. Former Princeton President William Bowen (along with two coauthors) found in their book "Equity and Excellence in American Higher Education," that in reviewing Ivy league admissions, legacies, like minorities and recruited athletes, "have a decidedly better chance of being admitted, at any specified SAT level, than do other students."
So although those legacies need less help getting in, they still don't get in oftentimes without the help. One can look at that two ways. Legacies, because they are closer in abilities to the "average" student will struggle less than the URM's. But, as a matter of fairness, should the legacies be there? I don't think so, but with a BIG qualifier. I wouldn't like to see the government dictate policy to the private schools but I sure would like to see the private schools voluntarily going to policies like the ones in place at the University of California which give no preference to legacies.

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And yet...

posted at 3/2/2009 10:32 AM EST

drrico

First post: 12/13/2007
Last post: 11/18/2009
Total posts: 228

I suspect that most who feel defensive about it would say, "I might have gotten in on my name, but I'm staying here on my merits"; or they would look at Patrick's comment about four-times-higher and say, "Look, not every "hooked' applicant gets in, so I must be doing something right."

Look, some are happy and some aren't. I'd be upset if I thought I got left out, but the reality is that anyone who is good enough to be squeezed out of UVa or Northwestern by a legacy is good enough to get a great education somewhere else. This kind of reader-baiting is good for discussion groups but not helpful for getting things done.

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mixed feelings

posted at 3/3/2009 12:02 PM EST

RedBird27

First post: 8/31/2007
Last post: 5/23/2009
Total posts: 10

I was a full tuition admit to a pretty selective school. I ended up in the bottom half of the class.

While I've gone on to have a happy and successful life I do wonder if I might have been better off attending a school more in line with my qualifications.

The school did get me interviews when I first graduated and of course I love my long-time friends I went to school with, but I also spent 4 years knowing that no matter how hard I worked I was never going to be the best.

My own child, who easily qualified for admission to the school turned up her nose at it and wouldn't even apply. She went someplace where she was easily in the top tier of admissions and it hasn't bothered me or her one little bit.

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Not for Student-Athletes

posted at 3/3/2009 3:19 PM EST

bnorvall

First post: 4/16/2008
Last post: 3/3/2009
Total posts: 9

This is an interesting question. As a former student-athlete, D.I coach and a current private high school guidance counselor, I would contend with the comparison of student-athletes and legacies. Successful student-athletes have divided their time between the classroom and the playing field and deserve to have this fact considered-- assuming they have been successful in both arenas. For a student-athlete to be competing for admission with a regular student who has, in some cases, more than four hours each day to study and focus on academics than the student-athlete does, is not just. Though it is a choice to become a student-athlete, and they should not be rewarded for simply having the opportunity or the inherent talent, it would be ignorant of us as a society to not acknowledge the many positive social, health and psychological benefits of athletics. Just as an fyi, this is similar to talented students in other activities as well, such as those who are talented musicians in marching bands or state honor bands and choirs. The more a student has committed to an activity, no matter if it's speech and debate or water polo, if they have been able to manage their time and maintain strong work in the classroom, then this should be taken into consideration.
-Brady
http://collegecounseling101.blogspot.com

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I'm not arguing in favor of legacy admits

posted at 3/5/2009 3:59 AM EST

Cal_Lanier

First post: 5/24/2007
Last post: 11/18/2009
Total posts: 261

I generally agree with Patrick that I'd rather see legacies gone, without government intervention. I also agree that legacies are admitted at a higher rate, and don't have nearly as good numbers.

What I vehemently object to is Jay's absurd equivalencies. The lowered standards required to bring in URMs are in an entirely different league, and to speak of them as if they are similar is to insult the audience.

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Re: I'm not arguing in favor of legacy admits

posted at 3/5/2009 8:42 AM EST

patrickmattimore1

First post: 6/12/2007
Last post: 11/18/2009
Total posts: 446

Replying to:

And I was really trying to change the tenor of the discussion towards consideration of legacy admits or hooked admits generally since I thought the question Jay posed, "Are legacy admits really that happy?," was frivolous.

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Re: I'm not arguing in favor of legacy admits

posted at 3/5/2009 11:39 AM EST

sangacian

First post: 2/25/2008
Last post: 3/12/2009
Total posts: 30

Replying to:

Of course they are happy (and in some cases, cocky too). They know they don't belong there but because of Mommy and Daddy's money, they feel they are entitled to being there. I agree with Patrick. This is a very frivolous question.

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Difference Between Legacy & "Development" Admits

posted at 3/5/2009 6:36 PM EST

CrimsonWife

First post: 3/1/2009
Last post: 3/16/2009
Total posts: 4

Replying to:

Of course they are happy (and in some cases, cocky too). They know they don't belong there but because of Mommy and Daddy's money, they feel they are entitled to being there. Posted by sangacian

Many (if not most) legacies are NOT wealthy. You're thinking of "development" admits, those kids whose families have donated large sums (or are expected to do so once their child is admitted).

I was a legacy admit (though as I mentioned before I chose to attend a different college) but I most certainly was not by any stretch of the imagination a development one. I only wish my folks had that kind of disposable cash!

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