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Are We Wasting Valuable Reconnaissance Assets?

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Are We Wasting Valuable Reconnaissance Assets?

posted at 12/8/2008 9:30 AM EST

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William_M_Arkin

First post: 6/12/2008
Last post: 4/10/2009
Total posts: 58

Peter: I suppose a case could be made for this. The case might begin by noting that the Mumbai terrorists snuck from Pakistan into India and that this underscores the importance of regular border patrol. The case might also stress the importance of training border authorities in the use of new technologies — surely Bill would prefer Predator flights to a manned fence? And the case would emphasize that, as the Bush Administration has well understood, the war on terror requires vigorous action “over there” and “over here” -- it is a false choice to pretend you can do one without the other. However, even as I think of that case, I find myself only partially persuaded, given the urgent need in Pakistan/Afghanistan. And I also am suspicious of the quote from Conrad, which has a real pork-barrel politics feel to it. So I guess I lean towards the old Scot verdict of “not proven,” rather than guilty or innocent. Until I learn more about the rationale, I am skeptical, albeit persuadably so.

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Why not?

posted at 12/8/2008 10:09 AM EST

JamesPDBuchanan

First post: 10/3/2007
Last post: 2/7/2009
Total posts: 156

As Peter said, it beats manning the northern border. UAVs can linger for longer, can be controlled from anywhere, and can be handed off without needing to be brought down for extended periods. And being a fairly low intensity operation, serves as a solid training ground for new operators.

Its probably worth investigating whether this could be implemented on the southern border more intensely, complete with Surface to Ground missiles mounted up...

As for the Air Farce, the geek squad needs to be brought to heel. On the one hand, they whine about losing their budget money because of their rather limited role in the War on Terror, then when given a role, they heel drag? Add this in with their religious proselytizing issues and nuclear lapses, and this branch of the service is getting to the point of needing a Stalinesque purge of its senior staff.

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Re: Are We Wasting Valuable Reconnaissance Assets?

posted at 12/8/2008 10:42 AM EST

DavidCurrier1

First post: 5/2/2008
Last post: 4/20/2009
Total posts: 10

Replying to:

Earlier this year, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates was complaining that there weren't enough intelligence assets, and he took a shot at the Air Force saying it was like "pulling teeth" to get them to send more unmanned drones to Iraq and Afghanistan. Fast forward barely six months and you'll be glad to know that those very same Predator airframes will soon be patrolling the border: the Canadian border. This weekend, the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (a part of the Department of Homeland Security) announced that it would be starting reconnaissance patrols from Grand Forks air force base in North Dakota. "The Grand Forks Air Branch plays an essential role in helping shut the door on terrorists who want to sneak across remote border points to strike on U.S. soil," Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND) said. Come on. Where are our priorities?Peter: I suppose a case could be made for this. The case might begin by noting that the Mumbai terrorists snuck from Pakistan into India and that this underscores the importance of regular border patrol. The case might also stress the importance of training border authorities in the use of new technologies — surely Bill would prefer Predator flights to a manned fence? And the case would emphasize that, as the Bush Administration has well understood, the war on terror requires vigorous action “over there” and “over here” -- it is a false choice to pretend you can do one without the other. However, even as I think of that case, I find myself only partially persuaded, given the urgent need in Pakistan/Afghanistan. And I also am suspicious of the quote from Conrad, which has a real pork-barrel politics feel to it. So I guess I lean towards the old Scot verdict of “not proven,” rather than guilty or innocent. Until I learn more about the rationale, I am skeptical, albeit persuadably so.
Posted by William_M_Arkin

I grew up on the border between Maine and Canada. I have crossed into Canada and returned to the USA on several farmer/logger roads. I've never seen a Canadian or US Customs agent.

It's not rocket science. But, short of an all-out deployment of troops along the US/Canada border, this plan is a waste of security funding.

It's extremely unlikely that these drones would ever "see" anything moving on these tree-sheltered pathways.

Place the drones in more strategic locations.

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Practical use

posted at 12/8/2008 10:46 AM EST

SSTK34

First post: 12/8/2008
Last post: 12/8/2008
Total posts: 1

The 9/11 attackers did not strike the US from a foreign country. They entered this country in most cases legally. An aircraft manned or unmanned would not have made a difference. If they wish to put these aircraft to practical use then Afghanistan is where they need to be. On the other hand using them along the US/Mexico border makes better sense.

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Its always been "The Canuck"

posted at 12/8/2008 10:49 AM EST

frak

First post: 1/4/2008
Last post: 5/28/2009
Total posts: 6

No greater threat to the US in North America than the shady Canadian..They are sitting atop massive oil shale deposits that DEMAND US military intervention. Besides, any nation that doesn't have its own Caribbean island can't be trusted...

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Fortress America

posted at 12/8/2008 11:07 AM EST

cirrus_nine

First post: 10/3/2007
Last post: 8/13/2009
Total posts: 38

It will only be a matter of weeks before Condi is talking up a mushroom cloud scenario from Canada. We have always been at war with Canada.

America has borders that are too large to become a fortress and do we want to be one?

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Militarising the border

posted at 12/8/2008 11:15 AM EST

Bud0

First post: 6/6/2008
Last post: 2/4/2009
Total posts: 9

Any fool can see that Canada is the country that should be worried about that border. 300 million militaristic, easily-led nutcases live to the South.

It's easy to forget that as recently as the 1930s, Canadian and American staff officers were routinely taking cross-border "holidays" paid by their war ministries, to scout out the terrain in case of war between Canada and the US.

I don't see the US invading Canada for the oil. They'd have a hard time with the PR job. But if global warming does to the US breadbasket what the scientists say it will, the US will invade Canada over food and water issues later this century. I say "issues", but of course Washington will call it the food/water "question", as the Germans used to talk about the "Polish question", the "Sudetenland question", etc - i.e. a question that only they are asking. Everyone else will call it what it is, a brazen annexation for resource theft.

Peter Feaver will scoff at me, because his tiny brain is entirely hemmed in by Beltway conventional wisdom. But mark my words: By 2040, America will be looking for excuses to invade Canada, and Canada will be building nuclear weapons.

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gee .. what a concept

posted at 12/8/2008 11:16 AM EST

George20

First post: 9/5/2007
Last post: 11/1/2009
Total posts: 50

gee .. what a concept .. the Defense Department actually doing what might be defense for a change.
W

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Re: Are We Wasting Valuable Reconnaissance Assets?

posted at 12/8/2008 11:20 AM EST

DwightCollins

First post: 11/12/2008
Last post: 11/21/2009
Total posts: 103

canada has let unchecked middle easterners into it's country...
who knows how many terrorist cells are set up in canada...
when they attack, they will come from the north...
they will also come from the south...
east and west, we are protected by ocean...

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Re: Are We Wasting Valuable Reconnaissance Assets?

posted at 12/8/2008 11:25 AM EST

fjg1800

First post: 6/12/2008
Last post: 4/29/2009
Total posts: 328

Replying to:

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Re: Are We Wasting Valuable Reconnaissance Assets?

posted at 12/8/2008 11:29 AM EST

fjg1800

First post: 6/12/2008
Last post: 4/29/2009
Total posts: 328

Replying to:

...I also am suspicious of the quote from Conrad, which has a real pork-barrel politics feel to it. So I guess I lean towards the old Scot verdict of “not proven,” rather than guilty or innocent. Until I learn more about the rationale, I am skeptical, albeit persuadably so.
Posted by William_M_Arkin

KUDOS to you, Bill, for withholding judgment until the facts are in.

And I with you -- this sure smells like pork.

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Re: Are we wasting valuable reconnaissance assets

posted at 12/8/2008 11:36 AM EST

msmith37

First post: 12/8/2008
Last post: 12/8/2008
Total posts: 1

As a Canadian living north of North Dakota, I think my only crime to date is wanting to get into the US to spend more of my under-valued dollars in shopping malls in Minneapolis. If that qualifies me as a "shady" Canadian than so be it. My sense is that the United States has much more significant economic and political issues in this world than worrying about Canada. The sooner that we start looking at North America as an integrated economic asset, the better -one built on a better understand of our shared and mutual interets.

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terrorists have snuck in through Canada

posted at 12/8/2008 11:45 AM EST

Ali4

First post: 3/10/2008
Last post: 10/28/2009
Total posts: 35

We have had would-be terrorists come in through our northern border. Not all that many years ago, one was stopped with weapons or bombmaking material in his car. Furthermore, or friend Canada is friendly to terrorists from all over the world who have taken advantage of its easy immigration and asylum policies to use it for funding or staging operations in the rest of the world.

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Twits in Charge

posted at 12/8/2008 11:53 AM EST

BlueTwo1

First post: 10/8/2007
Last post: 11/17/2009
Total posts: 95

Look. If you were a political appointee, rewarded for good party works with an executive government job, wouldn't you do stupid things like spend agency money "monitoring" an endless peaceful national border, over which anybody can cross at anytime except, perhaps, at official border crossing stations? It feels national-security-like. You can pretend that you are James Bond sticking it to the terrorists. Congress may increase your budget next year because you spent all of it this year. It is good to be in charge. (In Britain they are known as upper-class twits. In America, they are the rich and stupid. Lunkheads like that emerge from the shadow world of idle trust-fund beneficiaries and basket case MBA recipients. That's how Brownee was put in charge of letting Nawlins drown.)

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Wasting resources

posted at 12/8/2008 11:54 AM EST

chicago8

First post: 12/8/2008
Last post: 12/8/2008
Total posts: 1

The example of Pakistan sending terrorists to India is a poor analogy for patrolling the Canadian border.

If we reduce this to absurdity, the truck bombing of the World Trade Center, started out in New Jersey, hence
we need to patrol the NY -NJ border,
and so it goes, all state borders need patrols,

where does this end?

Chicago8

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A Canadian weighs in

posted at 12/8/2008 12:03 PM EST

wsToronto

First post: 6/9/2008
Last post: 12/8/2008
Total posts: 7

Canadians understand that Americans want to improve your border security, and that the enormous volume of commercial and vacation traffic back and forth across our border will just have to be patient. I've crossed recently from Ontario into Michigan and it took about 20 minutes. Niagara Falls last summer was also quick. So no big deal. Canadians will now need a passport. That's fine; we should all have them! (Truckers have legit concerns. More personnel needed on the US side to handle truck traffic.)

There are two potential terrorist threats from Canada. One is a Canadian home-grown cell where people cross into the US to do damage. That's really about police cooperation, surveillance, data-sharing, and computer checks at the border. (Btw, there is a trial pending of the 'Toronto 13' -- a bunch of alienated teens misled by a couple of sinister Islamist radicals in their 20s -- who held a training camp in the bush north of Toronto. These older guys are alleged to have discussed bombing our parliament and Toronto Stock Exchange. One person has already been convicted in this case.)

The second threat is from terrorists who arrive in Canada heading to the US. If they choose to enter Canada instead of entering the US directly, they must believe that it is MUCH easier to enter Canada than the US from other countries, because they then have to cross the Can-US border to reach their destination. We do have more remote coastline to come ashore than the US does, so our coast guard is important, but the main answer here is to make sure entry into Canada through our main airports is at least as well screened as US entry -- sharing current data re computer checks, harmonizing entry procedures, and conjoint security training for border personnel. It's my understanding that the Canadian government has been quite cooperative on this front.

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What about the Millenium Bomber?

posted at 12/8/2008 12:07 PM EST

magellan1

First post: 4/24/2008
Last post: 11/10/2009
Total posts: 16

Of course Canada is not perceived to be a threat but, as a former member of the Commonwealth, they have the same issue as another good friend of the United States - the U.K. They are a land open to immigration from the old colonial empire, and a good number of those former colonies are hotbeds of terrorism.

Ahmed Ressam came across our friendly Canadian-American border in 2000 and was intercepted by Customs before he could bomb Los Angeles International Airport.

With many thousands of miles of unprotected and un-patrolled border between the U.S. and Canada, this would seem to be a minimal precaution.

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Are we forgetting Alaska

posted at 12/8/2008 12:24 PM EST

edwardallen54

First post: 12/8/2008
Last post: 9/3/2009
Total posts: 2

OK, so North Dakota and its surrounding states are monitored, but what about the lengthy and unmonitored border border between Canada and Alaska? Canada's Yukon terrorities are within easy driving distance of vital Alaska cities like Ketchikan and Juneau, so are we leaving our vital salmon fisheries naked to the possibility Canadian terrorists will take them over? Al-Quada has gained vital experience in fighting winter wars in the Tora Bora area, so they could gather troops in the Canadian wilderness and swoop down the mountainsides in deepest winter to take over Alaska. Don't laugh. The Japanese occupied some of the Alaska islands in World War II.

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Stop the terrorist beaver, moose and canoes coming out of the Boundary Waters

posted at 12/8/2008 12:30 PM EST

Minnesotan602

First post: 12/8/2008
Last post: 12/8/2008
Total posts: 1

I think it is a brilliant idea. From my watch post 30 miles up the Gunflint Trail and 5 miles south of the US-Candian Border I know the dangers inherent in the so called 'Boundary Wilderness'.

We must protect the US from the every day from the the threat of rutting Canadian bull moose heading south into the US looking for female companionship. Suicide moose, - moose skulls are festooned with racks of antler weapons, - head across the trail and take out another righteous American pickup in fanatic head on assaults.

Don't forget Canadian beavers. Those little buck toothed monsters are capable to raising havoc with America's vital forest resources. Pairs of illegal alien beavers multiply into hordes capable of bringing down great trees and causing untold flooding.

Finally -- let's not forget about the canoeists and kayakers sailing free on border waters. Just imagine them mounting 16 inch guns on their innocent looking watercraft. Canadian naval power on the lakes. We fought a war in 1812 to prevent that -

Enuff said - and a warning to the wise. Keep us safe and spy on the forests.

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And will these Predators be armed with missiles?

posted at 12/8/2008 12:30 PM EST

edallan

First post: 12/8/2008
Last post: 11/22/2009
Total posts: 31

My headline says all that needs to be said as to the absurdity. But I'll continue anyhow. Timothy McVeigh, one of our own home-grown terrorists, came from Lockport and Buffalo, so obviously they should be the first targets of the missiles. We have the "Minutemen" hiding out in Idaho, concerned about spurious UN black helicopters, so a bona fide USAF camouflaged drone should be able to get them quite easily -- and also validate their concerns about over-reaching government. Alan Thicke's TV shows bombed, so I guess that Sudbury, Ontario should also be a target.

"To someone who has only a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

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