Alt.Rock = No.Sex? Your Views Thursday, December 2, 1999

Emily…you are dead on. You are the goddess of all things mated! How do we sex up the clubs? And leave the drooling masses behind? You go girl…

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I think you're right about the indie mindset. In the minds of these scenesters, it appears that it is just not punk rock, mod, hip, indie, or whatever the vibe of the moment is to buy someone a drink, start a conversation, or dance like you mean it. You can't be too over- or underdressed because over means you're trying too hard and under means you're not cool enough. If the kids lightened up a bit, they might just get some action. Otherwise, I suggest moving to San Fran–home of the hip, yet strictly defined lifestyle.

–Ex-hipster, Arlington

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I always feel unattractive among indie/rockabilly boys, like I'm too brass or loud or belong elsewhere.

Which is why I'm not terribly attracted to the music.

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Although I am 30-something and therefore a bit older than the typical crowd you'd find at an alternative music club, I am a longtime, on-and-off denizen of the D.C. area, and have lived here while still in my 20s–which wasn't all that long ago. Your findings at the Black Cat, 9:30, and others do not surprise me in the least– nor would they surprise anyone of that age group who frequents such places. And, no, it's NOT that the guys are all-too fascinated with their favorite bands to notice the women–take it from me, a guy: that's just a pose. The guys are just mimicking and reflecting back the irascible FEMALE coyness they are accustomed to, out of pure frustration. It's all an act, to appear "cool." Inside, their loins are burning! And it also has to do with the "politically correct" atmosphere and the sexually repressed ethic of most D.C. work places. This carries over into the social scene.

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I concur wholeheartedly with your assessment; carnal pleasures are the last in line for the average Joe and Josette indie listener. The scene has always been pretentious for as long as I can remember. A recurring conversation heard throughout venues in the District when referring to the indie band of the moment almost always starts with, "I like their old stuff…" I think that a good contrast to the indie crowd's "ne'er-do-groove" attitude is another scene that has climaxed and is in its final throes of life: swing. Here is a subculture whose attitude is the antithesis of indie. The word "daddy" would never be mentioned in an indie cut–unless it was to relay psychological turmoil left by a neglectful or abusive father. For the "swing set" all of life's burdens and anxieties are relieved with a pair of saddle shoes and a Louis Prima cover at full volume. Indies choose words, noise and instruments to release what's been pent up inside them for god knows how long. But with swing comes a set of defined steps or rules. The independents use every square inch of their soapbox to eliminate rules and redefine what the music-listening public considers music. It allows the geeks, artists and loners a chance to voice their opinions to a more select group.

Although I can't say I can entirely relate to one group or the other, I can respect both positions to an extent. I believe art is defined solely by the artist. I also believe that no-holds-barred booty shakin' does body, mind and spirit good. But it is important for both camps to remember, to quote a popular soft drink ad: "Image is nothing."

–Jonathan Ferree

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You think it's tough flirting at the Black Cat? Try being a gay indie guy looking for a friendly face or a potential boyfriend. Although the bar is frequented by many queers who avoid clone factories like "Jrs." and "Velvet," everyone is incommunicado. Guys who talk like their hair is on fire suddenly become Henry Rollins when they walk into the Red Room.

I think the basic problem is men (isn't it always?). Gay or straight, men will do anything short of gnawing off a limb to avoid showing interest, which we deem as a sign of weakness. Even in a liberal counterculture environment like the Cat, people are afraid to reveal their sexuality and look less cool. The great irony is that it's the straight scenesters who go out of their way to look "gay" (i.e., soft features, nail polish, skintight T-shirts). In fact, I think it's fair to say that most of the action gay guys get at the Cat is from straight guys trying out the whole David Bowie/Glam/Bisexual dynamic. It's not risky for them because they know they're basically hetero and therefore in control of the situation.

The other problem is that the bar attracts a steady flow of regulars who all know each other. If a woman starts chatting up a guy she's seen at the bar before, her friends will hear about it before the night is through. If she hooks up with him, it'll be all over the Cat by the next night.

Just the opinion of a 7-year Black Cat regular.

–Dan Avery

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Hey Emily…you're right. People don't enjoy themselves as much as they should at shows 'cause it's not cool. I live in San Diego and everyone's cooler than you. One of my fave things to shout out in between songs at shows is "Dance, you f-ing indie rockers!" It couldn't have been more obvious than when me and my friend jumping and down like idiots at a packed Cibo Matto show where NO ONE was moving. Ugh.

Still, I HATE dance clubs and am glad that my local indie rock club has started a night where they play good dance music (disco, Madonna, Deee-Lite, etc.) and the people who mostly go are interesting (artists, indie rockers, whatever).

Nuff said. You're not alone.

–Adam

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Thank the little baby Jesus that I am not the only other person in Washington who notices the bizarre behavior of the Gen X'ers. Being a card-carrying member myself, I am ashamed every time I have to interact with the fellows downtown. I too share the pain of seeing many a cute boy, making eye contact, batting an eyelash or two…only to have the overly cool hipster, in really nice duds, walk out just as the show ends without any of the normal "Can I buy you a drink," or "Hey, I know Dave Grohl." There is something wrong with the D.C. scene. Being the social butterfly that I am, I loathe the crowds that usually end up at some of the great shows at the Black Cat. I don't care if I am the only one in a crowd who is not afraid to shake my bootie or, god forbid, crack a smile. Black Cat's saving grace is the people who work there. They understand the pain you and I go through as audience members and are there to help when the pain gets to great.

I would, however, like to defend IOTA. The shows that I go to there usually have the friendliest people mingling around. The regulars are not afraid to strike up a conversation and the small intimate conditions make it really hard not to grab the guy next to you and start dancing–which at some other places might get you the label of "Freak."

So move around, shake something. I'm tired of "Prozac Rock" and I'll tell you what, I don't go out on a Friday (or Tuesday) to pretend to be bored. I'm over it. Would everybody else please get on my bandwagon! So, I thank you for your words of distaste and maybe I'll see you at a show. I'll be the redhead wandering around talking to people–refusing to stand in one place with a scowl on my face just nodding my head. (I did not mean for that to rhyme. I blame Dr. Seuss.)

–Ellie O'Connor, Arlington

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The world definitely needs fewer pouty, sexless, indie rockers. Whatever happened to having fun at shows? Case in point: I attended a Guided By Voices (GBV) show last year, which was well-populated with skinny, smoking 17-23 year olds concerned with the state of Don Caballero and Modest Mouse, but not with talking to anyone who didn't have the said bands' latest 7 inches. Once GBV started playing (complete with highly buzzed Bob Pollard doing karate kicks–how rock n roll is that?), the room exploded with…little movement and slight head bobbing. When I started boogying, several people scoffed and gave me "you-big-loser-stop-dancing-this-is-indie-rock" looks. Hands down the most boring show ever (due to the crowd, not GBV).

Additionally, when initiating conversation with a lovely young woman, her male friend mumbled, "Stop hitting on her, man, this ain't a f-in' Chili Peppers show," then shuffled her off to safety. Is this what going out to a show has come to? Going out socially in order to be anti-social? Being too cool to talk? People should get out of their basements with their lo-fi recordings and fanzines and grow up. I used to be an "indie-elitist" myself several years ago until I found that basically no one likes you except for the dorks at your college radio station who can't get over how cool Calvin Johnson is.

Get out and LIVE, dammit!

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All I can say is that when I'm dancing at a club, I'm completely caught up in the music, and I'm not interested in talking to guys. If one does interrupt me, there are a few ways it can work out all right: If he has a civil question about the band, that's fine. If it turns out we've been collecting their stuff for years and can maybe trade tapes or something, also fine. Guys like that are obviously fellow fans, who came to the club for the same reason I did, and are therefore all right. But if his intention is just to flirt with me, forget it. That is not why I go out. I have yelled in the faces of fellas who would not get offa my cloud at a club, and I'd do it again anytime.

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You are right about the indie rock scene. Indie kids are the most arrogant, tight-assed, intellectually snobbish, mean kids on the planet, not to mention non-sexual, as well as generally unpleasant to look at. But the Black Cat pales in comparison to places like Brownies or the Knitting Factory in New York, or Other Music, which is so stuffy you can barely breath, everyone tiptoes around, and if you ask for the availability of any record that happens to go gold you get nasty looks. Indie kids: rot like pigs in hell.

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Your point is well taken. There's not nearly enough fanny shaking and tom-foolery at shows these days, let alone mingling and flirtation. You can't really chat someone up and go home with them way that you can at most mainstream venues. But all is not lost. There is in fact a secret society of folks like myself who have managed to overcome the restraints of loud music and proper show etiquette. We use the unique framework of the indie show to facilitate the spreading of love. While you are correct in pointing out that there is something decidedly unnatural about a social club where no one socializes, this phenomena also creates a distinct opportunity for the indie rocker:

a. It offers the advantage of a romantic surprise, and

b. Facilitates and enhances the use of the age-old girl getting maneuver: eye contact.

Being present in an indie club automatically sets you apart from the crowd. It establishes your credentials as a card carrying "anti-hootiest", who under normal conditions would never sink as low as to pick up girls in a bar. This is important because indie girls don't usually like those hootie types anyway. An infatuation that is so serious as to cause an indie rocker to flout convention and make the move despite the compound risks of rejection and faux-pas is not to be trifled with.

In conclusion, the art of romance at the indie show is alive and well for those of bold, yet shy technique. While it may at first seem that the indie rocker is standing around looking cool, this is really only an elaborate ruse to disguise the lustful subtext of the romantic maneuver at hand. So next time you are at an indie show, watch out for the girl or guy that is making eyes at you and be prepared for tea and records, or maybe a doughnut, after the show.

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Nice article. I agree with you that people go to these places mostly to enjoy the music. But I think they also go there to hang out and relax, and turning the place into a pick-up scene poisons that atmosphere. You soon have people dressing to impress, it feels harder to just hang out and enjoy the music, and then you've got just another meat market like Lulu's or Mr. Days. I'm not saying there is no room at all for flirting around, but that isn't the reason you're at the club. I believe that your friend Ed thought that his crush was dressing for attention, and therefore missing the point of being at the club, at least in his mind.

As for dancing around and moving your butt to the beat–well, that is just one thing girls like to do more than guys. Guys who really love to dance are as rare as girls who change their own oil. And, I think there is an association (perhaps unfair) of dancing with bad music. People just love to dance to bad music! Think of all those weddings where everyone pours onto the dance floor when the Bee Gees or Flashdance or the Electric Slide is being played. Who needs to be reminded of that stuff when you're listening to your favorite band?

–David Harbin (happily married to a beautiful woman who is just crazy about dancing)

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I must say, your observations concerning indie rock fans seem, in my experience, to be fairly universal. My school's (Swarthmore College, PA) radio station (WSRN-FM 91.5) boasts that it is an indie rock powerhouse, indeed, 98 percent of the play list is indie rock (was 100 percent until me and my metalhead friends came along). On beautiful spring and fall days the station broadcasts live over the main green of the school. On these days many a Swattie can be seen hanging out and, whoa, surprise, not grooving to the music. I know that they like it, as many of them have the shows that play it, and many others, who I have personally spoken to, say that they also like it.

They just don't dance. And about the lovin'. It is painfully obvious to anybody who has been on campus for any amount of time that nobody gets any action at all. Again, everyone, male and female, (with the exception of my last roommate) claims that they are longing for a little bit a' love, and yet nobody gets any. Why? Why??? The only answer that fits is that indie rockers are really frigid, whether by choice or by painful extension of the music I have yet to discover.

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Informal survey of music-loving friends (a number of whom are music writers, a number of whom do dance) concluded: Why offer comments if you don't know who you're talking to? Sorry. Maybe if you do a follow-up with your real name you'll get their responses.

My response: I don't make it my business to question others (your) perception of things in such a direct way. It usually isn't effective and doesn't lead to self-growth or self-knowledge. My suggestion is that you do the bold thing and interview a variety of people that you see in these venues, giving them full knowledge of your intentions, and write a piece that rises above "op-ed"-ness.

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Read your column and agree wholeheartedly. Then again, the best sex I've ever had was picking up a girl at an Afghan Whigs show -- a relationship that soon ended when she discovered that I had borrowed and did not actually own and know all the words to "Black Love."

So, as an indie-rock love veteran, here are a few tried-and-true lines that are guaranteed to make your love interest swoon:

-- Hey, aren't you that hot chick on the cover of "Surfer Rosa"?

-- So, baby, is it me or do you play bass as well? (works like a charm at a Superchunk show)

-- So, who are you hiding from?

-- Can I have this mosh?

-- So... Ever see the backseat of a Chevy Caprice?

-- Nice dog collar... wanna fuck?

I can't give away all my trade secrets.

Better hint -- most guys are totally scared shitless of women who dig the bands they're into because it's their deepest fantasy to do the bump-and-grind to an old Codeine album -- it validates their belief that they really should have been getting laid when they were 16 and depressed. So it should be up to the ladies to make the first move. The good thing about indie rock shows -- as opposed to (some) hip-hop shows or electronica (or Woodstock for that matter) is that there's less tension, more irony, and generally, more sobriety. So, work it, girlfriend. That's my two cents.