Karen Koning Abuzayd

Joining us Wednesday, March 31, 1999 to discuss the humanitarian crisis in Kosovo was Karen Koning Abuzayd, U.S. and Caribbean representative to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. Abuzayd has served in her current post since September 1998. Previously, she held the position of cabinet chief for UNHCR Sadako Ogata in Geneva and was also chief of mission in war-torn Bosnia and Herzegovina from 1993-95.

A transcript of the discussion follows:

Chapel Hill, NC: If I'm sitting safely in my home and office in the U.S. and worrying about the magnitude of this human suffering, what is the best way and quickest way to aid these refugees?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: I hope people have seen the lists in many of the national newspapers giving the names of voluntary organizations working in Macedonia and Albania--the best thing is to send funds to these organizations already busy on the ground--they know the needs, need many more resources and can best help the refugees. . .

University Park, MD: How are you gearing up for this crisis. It seems like many agencies are involved in helping the refugees, how is coordination worked out among all the groups.

Karen Koning Abuzayd: UNHCR is the lead humanitarian agency in the former Yugoslavia and when we all had to leave Kosovo because of the security situation there, 55 or so agencies went together to Macedonia. We and they are carefully dividing up the work, some going to Albania and all the activities and resources are being coordinated by UNHCR. We have long experience in doing this in emergencies all over the world.

Augusta, Georgia: Given the sheer size of the refugee flow which is numbered at around 100,000 and its potential for destabilizing the receiving countries, what plans, if any, are being which would perhaps provide "temporary" shelter in other safe countries such as the U.S., U,K,, or Germany?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: We are now planning for at least 350,000 refugees to come out of Kosovo (and it looks like there is plan to empty Kosovo completely--now trains are being sent out of Pristina to Macedonia), so we are already asking European countries to keep their borders open, to treat any arrivals like refugees (which they are) or at least to provide a "temporary protection" regime as we did in Bosnia. Some countries (Italy, Norway, Sweden) have already offered places, but too few. Refugees themselves prefer to stay closer to home so they can go back quickly if circumstances permit.

New Orleans, LA: Are you available to give talks to university groups regarding refugees and specifically the situation in Kosovo? If so, how could someone get in touch with you?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: My colleagues and I are definitely available to speak at universities and other institutions--we want to spread the message about refugees and UNHCR and humanitarian organizations generally as widely as possible in the U.S. and to encourage people to be interested in world affairs. You may contact our Washington office at 202 296 5191 or fax 202 296 5660, attn. Rachel Williams.

Baltimore, Md.: Karen,

We keep hearing a lot about the Kosovo Albanian refugees. Are there any reports of Serb refugees with the airstrikes? What is the impact of the NATO attacks on them?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: We are very concerned about the Serb refugees (from Croatia and Bosnia) who were in Kosovo, since we no longer have anyone in Kosovo to see how they are managing. There have also been a few reports of a few hundred persons moving into Serbia proper and our office in Belgrade is looking after assisting them.

Berkeley Heights, NJ: Could some of the Kosovars be brought to the United States? The U.S. hasn't taken in war refugees since the Vietnam war and could easily absorb 50,000 or so. The Chicagoland area seems a good match because of its large population of Slavic heritage, the similar climate, and the relatively slow existing growth in population.

Karen Koning Abuzayd: This sounds like a very good idea to us--we expect the US Government's excellent resettlement programme will probably come forward with an offer to take some thousands of persons, but until now we're still going to try to keep as many people as we can in the region so they can go home if peace comes.

Amman, Jordan : Dear Karen,
If I recollect correctly, UNHCR has always had problems between sovereignty issues and protection of refugees. Given that governments are now under siege in Kosovo, who do you approach to help the refugees? Or during wartime you don't need to respect the sovereignty issue?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: UNHCR always has to work at the invitation of governments who have international commitments to allow us to defend and protect (and assist) refugees. Inside Kosovo working with internally displaced persons it becomes a little more difficult, but now that people have fled across borders our job is clearer--according to our mandate, and the governments of Albania and Macedonia have been exceedingly cooperative and generous. And the people of these two countries have opened their homes to the refugees, despite their own difficulties. . .

Washington, D.C.: Karen,

Many U.N. agencies have been hit hard by budget cutting. How has UNHCR been affected? Has this hindered your ability to help refugees in different parts of the world like Kosovo?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: UNHCR, along with other operational agencies such as UNICEF and WFP who are seen to have real activities on the ground, in the field, have been much less hard hit by budget cuts. We are all funded by voluntary contributions, meaning governments decide each year how much to give us. UNHCR's budget has gone down recently because our volume of activities have gone down (after the former Yugoslavia operations and the Great Lakes of Africa operations) which gives us some overall "contracting" problems, and some of our programmes which give a little extra to refugees like tertiary education and income-generating activities have to be cut back. We end up providing just the bare essentials.

Alexandria, Va.: Karen,

You probably witnessed first-hand the crisis in Bosnia a few years back...Do you notice any operational similarities here?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: Yes, I was in Bosnia for two years during the war, but there (93-95) we had massive outside support, including from UN peacekeepers. In Kosovo we relied on the Kosovo Verification Mission and now in Albania and Macedonia we're back to mostly voluntary agency helpers. In Bosnia we were feeding and protecting 4 million persons--we trust the numbers will not be so high for Kosovars.

Los Angeles, CA: I am a student and have a free summer. Do the refugee organizations need help? Is it worthwhile to go help or better to stay out of the way?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: Unless you have experience in such situations, it's better if you try to get more publicity in the U.S. for the problems refugees are having abroad rather than trying to help out on the ground. You might contact voluntary agencies working in the area to ask if they need help, if not out in Albania, maybe at their HQ here in the US.

Wellesley, MA: Has your organization been able to ascertain the sentiment of the refugees towards NATO's actions?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: This is a question we would not ask refugees, since our humanitarian operation must be very careful to remain completely separate from the military action going on there. We do know the refugees are not among those blaming NATO for what is happening to them.

Greenbelt, Maryland: It would seem from some news reports and the rather frantic calls for worldwide assistance that the UN was caught off guard by the volume of refugees pouring out of Kosovo. Was there any sort of advance UN plan in place for handling these people? Refugees fleeing a war zone is nothing new. Could the UN have been better prepared?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: We (UNHCR and our partners in the UN and among the voluntary agencies) had a contingency plan for 100,000 persons--we were ready to handle this group. We did not count on Kosovo being completely emptied as seems to be happening now; since yesterday our plan is for 350,000 and we are rapidly filling in the blanks and gaps for this plan from generous donor governments all over the world. There is a bit of a dilemma in refugee work in predicting large numbers--one has to remain credible and not also provoke precipitous movements. We're pretty good in emergencies, however, so should be able to gear up immediately to the higher numbers. Early days in any emergency look fairly chaotic, but we believe things are under control. . .

Arlington, Va.: Is there a way to measure the Kosovo crisis against, say, the Rwandan humanitarian disaster of a few years ago? How large of an affected population are we talking about in Kosovo? The earlier posting said 350,000 people. Is this accurate?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: This crisis of course doesn't compare with the 1 million who fled in a few days from Rwanda in 1994. One needs to look at each situation, however, and see how well the region is able to cope with what is happening. In Albania, for example, we are dealing with a dreadful road system, the poorest country in Europe and we simply have to do as much to support the government and people in their generosity to the refugees as we can.

Chester PA: Much has been done to help refugees in Bosnia and Croatia, and now Kosovo. What have you all done to help the hundreds of thousands of refugees relocated into Serbia from the earlier wars in Croatia and Bosnia?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: UNHCR's largest programme in former Yugoslavia until this week is in Serbia and Montenegro. There are over 500,000 Bosnia and Croatian Serb refugees in FRY and we had a large Belgrade office and several field offices helping the government to shelter, feed and move toward self-sufficiency this large number of persons. We have local staff in FRY still working with these people.

Baltimore, Maryland: Karen,

I have a friend who is originally from Belgrade. She attends school locally. She still has family in the Belgrade region and fears for their lives. She would obviously like to find out more information regarding their health and location. What resources would you advise her to use?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: Among international agencies, the one responsible for tracing is ICRC. You may contact their Washington or Geneva office for help.

Washingtonpost.com: We have a half hour remaining in our discussion with Karen Koning Abuzayd. Continue to submit questions using the link below.

Washington, DC: Given that the poorest nations in Europe -Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro- are sheltering refugees from Kosovo, do you not think that industrially developed nations such as the United States or Germany have a moral obligation to take in these poor Kosovars who are fleeing danger?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: Both the High Commissioner for Refugees and the Secretary-General have made statements asking the Europeans to keep their borders open and to receive refugees appropriately. We believe that when the situation warrants people moving on from Albania and Macedonia and Montenegro (and the people themselves agree), there will be agreement from the international community to welcome them.

Washington, DC: IN the U.S. , we have seen numerous images of the refugees fleeing Kosovo, and heard numerous stories of the atrocities committed by Serb forces. However, there are global protests against the NATO actions in Yugoslavia - is the rest of the world receiving different news than we are? Why do you think that a joint effort to alleviate pain and suffering and eliminate "ethnic cleansing" is getting such a poor reception from a large part of the international community?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: I think there are always persons against military action--and with good reasons. But it is also true that not the whole world gets the same news and some people get very censored notions of what's going on, even right next door. There is also probably an underdog defense--at least that's what I hear from taxi drivers in Washington--the great big NATO and US picking on small countries. These things are a bit beyond my humanitarian brief, however. . .

Fairfax, Virginia: It's a horrendous tragedy that is happening to the ethnic Albanians, and I'm glad we are making an effort to halt the violence. As a caucasian concerned about all people, I must ask why is it that we "bomb" or take drastic action to save only light-skinned people? What about atrocities that happen in, say, Rwanda to hundreds of thousands of blacks? Why doesn't NATO, with a large U.S. influence, try to protect these people?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: I'm not sure what you describe (quite accurately) is motivated by race, but perhaps more by political agendas. Europe is, after all, closer to us and there is more of a concern for spillover, both political and human, into neighbouring countries.
I would like to second your suggestion, though, that the international community should mobilize its political will to solve problems which are much worse in many ways (more people displaced, more atrocities) in places like Sierra Leone. The humanitarian community acknowledges that it is a "bandaid"--a temporary solution only and the world needs to take appropriate political decisions (and sometimes other sorts of action, maybe military) to address root causes of conflict. .

Washington, D.C. : Karen,

I'm interested in getting involved in international relief efforts. I'd like to know how you got started and what I could do to get a job like yours....

Karen Koning Abuzayd: I got started accidentally--volunteering for UNHCR one summer in Sudan while on holiday from my academic job. That was a long time ago. Depending on your age and experience, you may want to become a UN volunteer or to start with a voluntary agency to get your first overseas experience and then move on to the UN. Most organizations require at least two languages and an advanced degree nowadays. .

Washington, DC: What types of public health issues are the most important to address in the refugee situation occurring in the Balkans?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: Right now our biggest health worry is exposure to the cold--refugees are sometimes sleeping on their tractors, in their cars, or out in the open for a couple of days before we can move them on into someone's home or a collective centre. We do worry about general health conditions as the crowded conditions become worse and health is one of the priorities we've identified for the international community to provide assistance.

Annandale, VA: Assuming they could, do you think the Kosovars will want to return to their homes now that most are destroyed? Even with NATO troops, would they feel secure in Kosovo knowing that an angry Serb population across the border seeks to retake their land? I've heard that the Serbs have long memories and don't forgive very often.

Karen Koning Abuzayd: I think most Kosovars, particularly those from the rural areas with very strong ties to their land, will want to go home. We saw this already with the earlier displacement last year--even tho their villages were burned and their livestock killed, as soon as the Kosovo Verification Mission was on the ground and could provide them safety, they went home and started to rebuild and re-plant.

Lanham, Maryland: What is the specific source of the reports that the Serbs are committing atrocities in Kosovo? Does the UN have any way of confirming these reports independent of information provided by news reporters and refugees?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: The sources are the refugees themselves for the most part. We have no way of confirming them, since we don't confirm anything we haven't seen for ourselves. We do worry, however, at seeing large numbers of women and children coming out on their own--where are the men?

Rosslyn, Va. : Watching the television just now, the President apparently just earmarked $50 million in aid to help stem the humanitarian disaster. What kind of impact would a sum like this have?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: This is enormously helpful--not only to meet the shortfall we have for our Kosovo appeal, but also to encourage other governments to do the same. There has been an overall appeal for the former Yugoslavia from all agencies working there which has been only about one-third funded--if we get more money, we will reprogramme it for the new situation.

Boston Mass: There is a lot of concern nationally about the potential hypocrisy of U.S. policy. Specifically that Kosovo is a "humanitarian tragedy" warranting military intervention and for example, (as you mentioned earlier) Sierra Leone and Rwanda aren't. Could you tell us, are there large numbers of refugees leaving other countries under similar conditions?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: There are about 12 million refugees worldwide (plus another 10 million people of concern to UNHCR--internally displaced, returnees and others). They all need assistance of some sort, even those who may have been refugees for a long time. We understand that donors tire of some problems and think they should be solved, but that doesn't help those who are still stuck in the Horn of Africa, e.g.--Somalis and Ethiopians and Sudanese. At the moment there are no great outflows of refugees, but quite a number still in very precarious states. We discuss a lot about how to get people and governments interested in such groups.

Arlington, VA.: In a follow-up to your answer on coordination...If I send money to one of the many relief agencies--is that money eventually coordinated through your organization or does each relief agency target a particular population?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: If you send money to a particular agency, it will be responsible for how the money is spent. UNHCR reports only on the funds channelled through us (mostly from governments). But we work through over 400 voluntary agencies ourselves, giving about one third of our billion dollar a year budget to the agencies we call our implementing partners.

Arlington, Va.: Do you know exactly which humanitarian organizations are there in the border countries to receive and aid the refugees? Could you suggest a few or at least tell me the prominent ones?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: The New York Times, Washington Post, Washington Times and NPR website all have been carrying lists of agencies working with Kosovar refugees--it would be good to check them, since I don't want to leave some important ones out, but here goes: CARE, Catholic Relief Services,Mercy Corps International, Oxfam, International Rescue Committee, Save the Children, Church World Service and many, many more (55 were inside Kosovo with us until last week).

Vienna, Va.: Given the atrocities described in the news, how do you suppose the refugees have even managed to survive thus far? Do you think there are maybe some sympathizers -Serbs?- who have protected them until now?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: We don't know how many have survived. I hope there are some good neighbours inside Kosovo. The actual stories we think we can confirm are more about being harassed and chased out, stripped of identity documents, looted rather than actual killings.

Washington, D.C.: In your opinion, have airstrikes sped up or slowed down the humanitarian disaster going on in Kosovo? We continue to hear both in the media.

Karen Koning Abuzayd: These questions are hard to answer--like the question whether humanitarian action prolongs war. Yes, it may well do, but it may also save lives--wars might have been shorter, but with greater casualties. I think Kosovo was a simmering humanitarian crisis, waiting to come to the boil--but that's been true for years, even decades.

bethesda, md: Reports indicate that if and when this war ends, the refugees will probably not want to return to a province still ruled by Milosevic. What will happen to the thousands who've fled to neighboring Albania and Macedonia? Will the U.N. continue providing humanitarian aid, or is it hoping Albania and Macedonia will eventually integrate the Kosovars into their society?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: Our hope, and that of the refugees (and something Milosevic mentioned with Primakov yesterday) is that the refugees will go home. It would be extremely difficult for the neighbouring countries to absorb so many persons and rather destabilizing in terms of the ethnic mix in the region. .

Reston, Va.: What do the refugees need most immediately? How can we -civilians in the U.S.- go about helping these refugees -- beyond sending money? Any ideas?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: Sending money is best--making sure others know and care about the situation is also helpful. And somehow letting refugees know there are people thinking about them--you'd be surprised how it helps to hear from someone abroad--through radio, tv, mail, internet. .

Vienna, Va.: Are NATO ground troops the only solution in your mind that will stem the humanitarian crisis?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: We can't comment on this (and frankly don't know the answer).

Washington DC, USA: How can American families help out Kosovo refugees ?

Karen Koning Abuzayd: For the moment, by helping the agencies in Albania and Macedonia and Montenegro by sending them funds; perhaps eventually by considering, as a community, inviting a family on a resettlement programme.

Karen Koning Abuzayd: I would just like to wrap up by thanking those who sent in such interesting and serious questions and for showing such interest in our work and the needs of the refugees. We are very keen to stimulate interest in international affairs and particularly in helping people who are forced to flee their countries because of persecution. Thank you all.

Washingtonpost.com: Well, that's all the time we have. Many thanks to those who participated, and thanks to Karen Koning Abuzayd, who joined us live from her office in Washington, D.C.

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