Washington Post foreign correspondent James Rupert, currently in Abidjan, Ivory Coast, joined us May 5, 1999 to discuss the situation in the Balkans and the reaction of African nations to the West's outpouring of support for the Kosovar refugees. Rupert also fielded questions on events occurring across the African continent.

A transcript of the discussion follows below:

Washington, D.C.: What is the saddest-most touching story you've encountered when talking to refugees from Kosovo? Or a story that perhaps sums up the problems there?

James Rupert: A few days ago (the last several days are a bit mixed together in my head, I'm afraid), we had a heart-rending stream of refugees emerging from Kosovo at the Albanian border. Hundreds of cars, farm wagons pulled by tractors, people walking. These people had been forced out the day before from their villages in the Djakova (or Djakovica) region. On the way, masked Serb gunmen had halted their column and pulled hundreds of men into a field at the village of Meja, forced them to kneel and shot them dead. The families arriving at the border, in shock at the loss of their husbands, brothers, fathers, were the most tragic scene I saw while on this last assignment. I have two daughters, and talking with a woman suddenly confronted with raising her children alone, I felt helpless at saying anything useful at all.

Boston, MA: Does opinion in Africa seem to understand the often repeated rationale for intervention in Kosovo that Yugoslavia, being in Europe, poses more of a strategic interest than similar situations in Africa? In other words, is the theory of the US intervening only in self-defined strategically important events seen as justifiable?

James Rupert: Heavens, no. The people of Sierra Leone, victimized by gunmen of a Khmer Rouge stripe, cannot fathom why their suffering is less to be responded to than that of Kosovo Albanians. And frankly, I can't imagine making that argument to them.

Windhoek, Namibia: When there are no military targets to bomb in Serbia, will NATO target civilian installations?
What lesson should Africa learn from the Kosovo crisis?
Is the new dictum than to bomb any country into submission if they do not toe the line?

James Rupert: Wow...I'm a little new to this, and wasn't expecting folks from Windhoek! Many people would argue already that NATO has been targeting civilian installations...and even NATO admits targeting what it calls "dual use" facilities, such as TV stations, electrical grids, etc. There is a lot of shading of truth and meaning in our discussion of what's "military" or "civilian." The bottom line is that, as long as NATO continues its current policy of submitting its own people to minimal risk, it will be forced to commit ever greater damage to the Serbian economy as its only point of attack against the government it is targeting.
The lesson for Africa from Kosovo may well be the same as that of Rwanda, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Congo-Brazzaville -- that the West is going to be very choosy and reticent in the post-Cold War world in the way it intervenes with force in foreign conflicts.

ALEXANDRIA,VA: IS IT NOT TRUE THAT MORE PEOPLE ARE BEING KILLED IN THE
ETHIOPIAN-ERITREAN CONFLICT
THAN IN KOSOVO?...AND WHY DO
YOU THINK THE US AND OTHER WESTERN POWERS ARE NOT PLAYING
A MORE SERIOUS ROLE TO END THIS CONFLICT??

THANK YOU!

James Rupert: Sorry, I don't have the figures to compare the Ethiopian-Eritrean casualties with those of Kosovo. The US and others are staying away from very active role simply because they see few immediate interests at stake. Also because they're distracted, notably by the Balkans

Rosslyn, Va.: What's going on with the KLA rebels? Are they still being accused of forcing people to enlist or accosting aid workers? Do you worry they will get out of control?

James Rupert: The KLA appeared to be doing SOME forced recruiting in northern Albania, where I just spent a couple of weeks. But we were not able immediately to determine how many people might have been press-ganged in this way. It IS true that a great many -- clearly thousands -- of young Albanians from both Kosovo and the Albanian diaspora are enthusiastically and angrily signing up with the KLA to fight the Serbs.
I'm not sure exactly who will control them or how much. They seem to have a pretty narrow command structure, but the KLA is pretty secretive. And, probably even the KLA leadership cannot be sure, in the long term, how well they'll be able to control their troops. I would not count on the West, by the way, being able to "control" the KLA through its political or other influence -- at least if that influence is not wielded much more carefully and assiduously than, for example, in Afghanistan with the mujaheddin.

Mexico City: Mr. Rupert-

How accurate do you think reports are about systematic rape, mass graves, etc.? The eyewitness testimony seems to be consistent, but as far as I know, no reporters have been able to verify the stories first-hand. This brings to mind the old adage "believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see."
Also, how do you explain the skepticism of many, even in the U.S., as to humanitarian motives for the bombings?

James Rupert: This is a tough question. In wars, passions run high and facts get exaggerated...a natural human tendency. On the other hand, we can't dream of dismissing these horrific reports simply because a participant in the conflict, the Serbian government, is refusing journalists, diplomats and international institutions the access necessary to confirm them.
Clearly, the reports are reliable in the broad picture that they paint. There is plenty of scope for the details to be incorrect, perhaps exaggerated. So I would be cautious about the detail, but I would also step back to look at the big picture being offered us -- of a horrendous pattern of brutality being committed in Kosovo -- and I regard that big picture as thoroughly reliable.
The skepticism over the "humanitarian" objective of the bombings? That comes, of course, from the targets that NATO is choosing and the growing impact they are having on Serb civilians.

Wheaton, Maryland: Jim:

Do you think that the U.S. and the international community can learn any lessons in peacekeeping or humanitarian protection from the experience of ECOMOG in Liberia and Sierra Leone. Also do you think that the pulling of the observers from Kosovo nearly two months ago was a strategic mistake. Keep up the great work covering Africa! Thank you.

James Rupert: Well, thanks for the compliment. Nobody in the West, including the press, devotes enough time and resources to reporting on and understanding Africa. I frankly feel that we (the press and including the Post) have to struggle to do an even honorable job. But thanks.
ECOMOG: Yes, I think there are lessons to be learned, although they're buried in the details. In Liberia, ECOMOG was both a huge failure and then, under the command of Nigerian Gen. Victor Malu and with a lot of coordinated and careful help from the West, it became a great success for a limited time. It allowed the return of an elected government to Liberia.
One part of the lesson is the cooperation that existed, notably among the US, the European Union, the West African states and Liberia's by-then exhausted militias. That was the moment when it worked.
There are other lessons, no doubt, but they remain for a more detailed, narrow discussion...

Ashburn, VA: If my understanding is correct, the president-elect of Nigeria is a former military ruler himself. Do you think his regime will be any different than the military rule in the past?

James Rupert: Yes, Olusegun Obasanjo is a retired general. But there is plenty of scope for his rule to be different. For one, he's been elected, even if in a process that had numerous flaws. Secondly, Obasanjo is a pretty independent, even quirky guy. People who know him say he is unlikely to be successfully leaned on by his ex-military cronies. Also, Nigeria itself is different. Increasingly dangerous in some ways, notably with the conflict in the Niger delta. But also with the most vibrant civil society anywhere in this part of the continent.
I don't know how well Obasanjo will do. But there is plenty of room for hope...

Washingtonpost.com: We have a half hour remaining in our discussion with James Rupert. Please continue to submit questions.

Baltimore, MD: James,

I know you're not based in South Africa, but is there a reason that the country's transition from apartheid to democracy has gone so smoothly? I realize that Mandela played a huge role, helping unite various tribes, warring factions. But men like Mandela come around once a century. Were there other lessons that other African nations could learn from the South Africa experience? I'm speaking of troubled areas like Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Nigeria etc....

James Rupert: You're right, I don't know much about South Africa. But I do think it wasn't only Mandela who allowed for a basically peaceful process of change. In both black and white South Africa, there were powerful institutions able to channel popular sentiment to leaders and to help leaders keep angry people calm. These include churches, labor unions and others. This fabric of civil society is weaker virtually everywhere else in Africa....but it is growing stronger even in the most isolated areas. I was astonished to notice this even, say, in the Central African Republic or Gabon -- places that have had no real experience yet with democracy.
It is this slow growth of civil society that offers the best hope for African states improving their governance and solving their problems, I think.

Washington, DC: I've read your answers about Kosovo. Coming from Africa, though, you must have a perspective about how bad things are in a more absolute sense. Did you ever think to yourself while reporting in Kosovo that the problems in the former Yugoslavia, while terrible, just don't compare to the African slaughter that happens every day?

James Rupert: Heavens, no. I think what's happening in Kosovo is entirely comparable to what happens in Africa. I just got back to Abidjan from Albania last night and this morning was telling my bureau assistant, a Ghanaian, about what I'd seen. He shook his head and said, "my God, I thought this only happened in Africa!" And I was really astonished at this sign of how deeply we've imbibed the idea that Africa has some awful problems that the rest of us are immune from, or have evolved past.
I've spent plenty of time in recent years in Bosnia, Chechnya, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, Israel/Palestine, Algeria....and, for that matter, southeast Washington DC. And I have to say it's much more the SIMILARITIES of the problems than the differences that strike me.

Bronx, NY: In your opinion, what underlying interest does the U.S. have in intervening in Kosovo? I am unconvinced the U.S. is appalled by reports of genocide and widespread suffering in Kosovo; in lieu of similar reports in central Africa and Iraq. Don't you sense hypocrisy or at least dishonesty among U.S. policymakers?

James Rupert: I think the US is genuinely appalled and is intervening -- if in an uncertain way -- because of that. Yes, of course, there is a LOT of hypocrisy in our greater willingness to intervene in Kosovo than, say Africa. It is a hypocrisy linked, in my view, to the cultural closeness, or distance, that the majority of Americans -- or Europeans, or whomever -- feel from the disaster at hand.
Also, in these particular years, the bad US experience in Somalia plays a role. There are certainly other factors that if we had time, we could list....

Rosslyn, VA: Do the U.S. and NATO receive symbolic brownie points with Muslim anti-Western terrorists for defending the Kosovar Muslims?

James Rupert: No, I am quite sure they don't .

Washington DC: Mr. Rupert,
My question: Given what you said previously, is the KLA a kind of group that the U.S. could potentially align itself with? A few months ago, I know the group had many extreme members: hardline Marxists, terrorists, and some criminal elements. But recently many have been killed, I've heard. Where does that leave the organization?

James Rupert: Some policymakers suggest that the US should engage, and thus help mold, the KLA to try to encourage the sort of post-war future there that the West would prefer to see. That clearly is an option, but the West would have to address the same questions it addressed unsuccessfully when it tried to do that with the Afghan mujaheddin.
I'm not sure what the current makeup of KLA is....It's still very secretive.

Indianapolis, Indiana: Could you comment on the role between tribalism and politics in Africa. It appears to me that national unity -and therefore stability-is commonly compromised by loyalties to one ethnic group. Is there any hope that this will significantly change in the future?

James Rupert: Tribalism, regionalism, clans...all these are serious problems in African politics. But the real root of instability is the retention of authoritarian, artificial states and governments imposed by the European colonialists. They simply must become more democratic. That's a task of years and generations, but it is underway, notably in the growth of civil society on this continent.

WAshington, DC: Mr Rupert,

The countries of Sub-Saharan Africa are among those receiving the highest amount of economic assistance in the world yet remain among its most poor. I realize it's an old issue---giving money to dictators just doesn't work. But in your opinion, are there types of assistance that you think help the countries and move them toward more economic freedom and democracy?

James Rupert: I think the most effective aid is probably that that helps promote local economic and political development, including that of civil society. Notably in education, especially for women...

Philadelphia, PA: In a recent "Foreign Affairs" article, Chris Hedges seemed to suggest that by the time we finish bombing Kosovo, there will be no Albanians there except the KLA, which will be in a position to advance a claim to a "greater Albania." What do you think of this idea?

James Rupert: Looks like this might have to be the last question I get to. Sorry, there are several I didn't get to answer...Good questions, everywhere....
I haven't read Chris's article, but no matter what happens at this point, the KLA WILL be the dominant political force in post-war Kosovo. I dunno whether that's gonna be good or bad...

Mexico City, again: I notice you've mentioned civil society in the context of democratization several times. In your informed opinion, what hopes are there for reconstructing civil society in the Republic of Yugoslavia, which has now been perhaps irremediably polarized? Also, do you feel that ethnic pluralism constitutes an insuperable barrier to rebuilding democracy in Yugoslavia eventually? I.e., is the solution a truly autonomous Kosovo within Yugoslavia or an independent Kosovo -and I realize that this goes well beyond the scope of your duties as a reporter-?

James Rupert: Okay, good question, and they're letting me do one more...!
Yugoslavia started the 90s with a considerable base for a democratic civil society -- the freest press in E. Europe, for example. I don't know how much of that will be recoverable, but hopefully -- insha'Allah -- a good bit of it will. I'm afraid I can find little hope for ethnic pluralism in the near to mid-term future of Yugoslavia, so whatever stability can be established there will remain tense.. I dunno that the Albanians would now accept anything but full independence in Kosovo.

Washingtonpost.com: Well, that's all the time we have. Thanks to all for participating and thanks to James Rupert, who joined us from Abidjan, Ivory Coast.

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