Anne Swardson

As NATO enters its seventh week of airstrikes on Yugoslavia, Russia's envoy to the Balkans has hinted at a possible political settlement. Meanwhile, ethnic Albanians continue fleeing Kosovo to neighboring countries where refugee camps are quickly running out of resources.

Washington Post foreign correspondent Anne Swardson joined us May 11, 1999 from Skopje, Macedonia, to discuss the latest developments on peace negotiations, the refugee situation along the Macedonian border and European reaction to the Kosovo conflict. A transcript of the discussion follows below:

Arlington, VA: We've heard lots of criticism that Macedonia has been treating the refugees harshly while Albania has been more receptive even though they have less resources. Is this true? Why is this? Do the Macedonians dislike the Kosovars? Is it a political thing?

Anne Swardson: Largely it is true. The police at the refugee camp are extremely rude and virtually brutal to refugees, in my opinion. I think it's safe to say that Macedonians and Albanians don't get along really well. The ethnic make up was 25% albanian before the influx of refugees and I believe, 30% Serb Macedonians. So there's a lot of tension even before the refugee crisis got under-way. They've lost 18% of their experts. Yugoslavia was their biggest export market. And even though the international community has promised millions of dollars, it hasn't come. So if they're a little cranky, it's almost understandable.

Livonia, MI: Numerous media reports talk of "atrocities" committed by Serb paramilitary units in Kosovo. However, it seems that these allegations are rather flimsy. It appears to be almost impossible to find collaborating evidence under the circumstances, because one must assume that all refugees will testify to one side of this conflict. Can you offer an explanation?

Anne Swardson: The main reason there hasn't been any corroborating evidence so fatrocitiesar is that investigators from the International Criminal Tribunal in the Hague have not for obvious reasons been allowed into Kosovo. The refugees who come across tell terrible stories. As a reporter, I try to be a little hard- hearted and get as many details as I can. So that when someone says "four people were killed in my village," generally I get answers. When I get answers that are specific enough to satisfy me, I put it in the paper. I think some of the stories are hearsay. I think clearly from the scope of what has gone on that some atrocities have been committed.

Rockville, MD: Anne,

I'm wondering whether the refugees who are being shipped out to places like the U.S. and other parts of Europe are excited about the journeys, or saddened? Have many of them been outside Kosovo before?

Anne Swardson: It's an amazing thing. Growing up as an American, I've always had the idea that immigrants and refugees are dying to get into our country. I was amazed to interview many refugees who had no interest in staying. I interviewed more than a dozen refugees who were on the first flight to the U.S. and not one of them wanted to stay. They were grateful to the U.S. for allowing them to come, but couldn't wait to go home. You have to remember, these are people who were forcibly ejected from their homes. Not to go back would be to accept the ethnic cleansing that Slobodan Milosevic is trying to perpetrate.

Baltimore, MD: I have two questions:

1-Do European parliaments have the same resistance to ground troops as the U.S. Congress.
2-We've heard a lot of rhetoric over here about how the U.S. MUST win this war, otherwise it's a failure. Are Europeans telling their leaders the same thing?

Anne Swardson: The answer to the first question is that the European parliaments have very little power. I don't know what their opinion is on ground troops, but it doesn't really matter. Second, so far European leaders have been in complete solidarity with the Americans. The paradox is you can't possibly settle for complete victory, because anything less legitimizes Milosevic which European and Americans agree they can't do any longer.

Bowie, MD: I read a report today in the Baltimore Sun wherein an unofficial Yugoslavian government spokesman was accusing NATO of "staging" the refugee exodus. Is this claim being given any credibility?

Anne Swardson: Let me put it this way. It would be awfully hard to get a million people to leave their homes and live in filthy, horrible camps in Macedonia and Albania just to make a point.

Washington, District of Columbia: Ms. Swardson,

How strong is the religion factor as far as relations go between ethnic Albanians from Kosovo -mostly Muslim- and the Macedonians -primarily Eastern Orthodox-? Are there animosities between the two groups because of differences over beliefs?

Anne Swardson: I'm no expert in the region, but people tell me the conflicts are really conflicts of nationalism and ethnicity, not religion. A large number of Albanians are Christian. It's true that most are Muslim, but by and large they're non-practicing.

Boston, MA: Is NATO's air campaign having any real effect on Yugoslavian ground troops there? If not, then why doesn't NATO get forward info from KLA troops so the NATO planes are not just bombing empty buildings?

Anne Swardson: I'm not in Belgrade, I can't really speak to the efficacy of NATO bombings. Certainly it appears from the accidental bombing of the Chinese embassy, that NATO should update its maps. There are reports that the KLA quietly provides information to NATO, I don't know if those reports are true.

Laurel, Maryland: Will the bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade change the dynamic of the war at all? NATO appears not to have slowed down? Was there outrage about the bombing in Europe? It seems to have been quite muted here.

Anne Swardson: European governments I'm sure aren't happy, nobody is. But, it hasn't changed their central conviction that the bombing has to continue in pretty much the way it has. Where the bombing may have an effect is when we get closer to the diplomatic end-game. In terms of the position of the U.N. Security council. European governments might be more inclined than the United States to compromise on the final points as outlined for the end of the bombing.

Los Angeles CA: Do you believe that the U.S. or NATO is willing to threaten the deployment of forces or otherwise offer covert military assistance in order to defend the autonomy of Montenegro, and if so, for how long and under what circumstances could Montenegro hope for such assurances to remain in place?

Anne Swardson: Again, I'm no expert in this area and certainly not on Montenegro. But it seems so far that the threats against Montenegro have been perhaps a bit exaggerated and it doesn't seem to be in any immediate danger.

Washington, D.C. : Anne,

I found your piece on the Macedonia refugees the other day to be quite revealing about their daily life in the camps, especially the boredom factor. Are there any particular toys or things that Americans can send to make life a little less monotonous?

Anne Swardson: Thank you for asking that question and thank you for your kind words. I'll tell you exactly what to send: money. Let me explain why. I live in France and as soon as the refugee crisis broke out, the French Red Cross launched an enormous effort to food packages for refugee families. People were asked to contributed items like rice, pasta and canned vegetables. Those things need to be cooked. Most refugees have no cooking facilities. Needless to say, I haven't seen many of those packages in Macedonia. There's an effective an experienced core of volunteer organizations working in Macedonia. If you want to help the refugees, give money to those organizations.

Richmond, Virginia:
Anne,

Are Europeans pushing hard for Milosevic to be indicted by the War Crimes Tribunal?

To many Americans I know, they believe it's a rather futile exercise. The precedent isn't very good. The evidence against him for crimes in Bosnia was just as strong as those that got indicted. But nothing ever happened to Milosevic. Do Europeans feel the same?

Anne Swardson: It's not so much a question of how Europeans feel, but how the tribunal feels. The chief prosecutor, Louise Arbour was here in Macedonia today and seemed totally determined to make a case against anyone she could make a case against. The problem comes not so much in indictments but in capture. The tribunal does not have its own police force, so western governments have to be willing to go after the bad guys themselves. Arbour also pointed out, though, that the tribunal has made enormous progress against indicted perpetrators in Bosnia, even if they haven't caught all the big fish. In fact, she suggested now would be a great time to go after indicted Bosnian Serb strongmen, Karadzic and Mladic.

Gainesville, VA: Have any serious attempts been made to arm and train not just the KLA but ordinary ethnic Albanians coming out of Kosovo and living in other Yugoslavian provinces or former Yugoslavian countries?

Anne Swardson: I think anybody who wants to fight joins one or another faction of the KLA. In the last couple of months, volunteers have come home from all over Europe and the United States.

No. Virginia: Ms. Swardson, I understand you 're in Skopje. How do Macedonians view the war? Do they agree w-Clinton and Blair or do they want the war to end now?

Anne Swardson: I haven't interviewed a whole lot of Macedonians because I've been focusing on the refugee crisis. I think to an ordinary Macedonian it depends on how it affects them personally. Many people here are prospering. The bakeries produce what must be hundreds of thousands of loaves of bread every day to fee d the refugees. Anyone who can speak English works as a translator. Many people also work as drivers or camera men. I doubt people like that think this crisis is a bad thing.

Fort Collins, CO: I have never heard anything negative toward the USA from any Albanian refugee. Are there negative sentiments? Are they voiced? And what are they if there are? Thanks, and be careful out there!

Anne Swardson: Gee, I wonder who asked that question. As far as I can tell, the refugees love the United States and they love NATO. Even relatively unsophisticated people, refugees from the country, talk about how NATO is good, the U.N. is bad for example. In a certain way, they're rather sophisticated politically and they're certainly happy with the United States.

Washington, D.C. : I remember there had been talk about a month ago of establish a permanent NATO presence in the Albania and Macedonia, given the ongoing and likely lingering conflict. Has that idea gained any support? Are there plans in the works?

Anne Swardson: I'm sorry to keep admitting my ignorance, but I don't believe NATO traditionally plays a peace keeping role or has a permanent presence anywhere. If there was to be a long-term peace-keeping mission here, presumably it would come under the United Nations.

Dulles, Va.: from your discussions, do the refugees realistically believe they will ever be able to go home and return to a life like the one that existed before they were forced to leave?

Anne Swardson: Certainly, what the refugees want more than anything else is to return home and they'd like to return home. Yes, they know their houses are destroyed and their villages burned down, but I think they still believe, that thanks to Western intervention they can return to a life free of the persecution and oppression they've known for the last few years.

Vienna, VA: Ms. Swardson,

I've not read a piece yet on any trouble that the U.S. military or other officials have had in handling the refugees out of Kosovo. I've seen photos of them playing with children and stories talking about how they've tried to make the refugees feel at home at Fort Dix. They seem to be doing a decent job in what must be a difficult situation. Is this your assessment of their work so far?

Anne Swardson: Totally. The saddest day in the refugee camps so far is the day that the NATO soldiers started pulling out and turning them over to the humanitarian organizations. It's not that the NGOS are doing a bad job. But, Kosovars, as I said earlier, really believe in NATO and its power to protect them. Children who were traumatized at the site of military uniforms because of the way they were treated by the Serbs, loved playing soccer with British soldiers. Even now with some restlessness in the camps, all it takes to calm things down is a few NATO troops walking through.

Bethesda, MD: Ms. Swardson,

In Albania, officials are apparently having problems with overcrowding in the north around Morina. But their push to move refugees further south is running into resistance. Is there a similar problem in Macedonia?

Anne Swardson: Actually, the problem in Macedonia is ironic: Even though the camps are overcrowded and the refugees are unwelcome, none of them want to be transferred to Albania. About a week ago there was talk of transferring 60,000 refugees from Macedonia to Albania. They expected 600 in one bus load and got 82. They're going instead to Denmark, Italy, Norway, Australia, Canada and the U.S, but they won't go next door. They're afraid of crime, they want to stay close to home and they don't feel they'll be treated any better in Albania than they are here.

Alexandria, VA: Are there any numbers that suggest how the crisis has affected the greater European economies, or confidence in say the euro or European markets?

Anne Swardson: The Euro has fallen a fair amount since its debut on Jan 1. Last time I looked (and that was a while ago) it had fallen about 10%. But I think that's due more to Europe's economic fundamentals, than the war, which so far has not had any significant effect on the larger European economy. Let's face it, these are pretty small countries from an economic point of view.

Washington, D.C.: Anne,

I read your response to the refugee question and have a follow-up. A lot of refugees SAY that they do want to return apparently, but isn't that what all those displaced Bosnian Serbs and Muslims now living in the Midwest said before coming to the U.S.? They still haven't returned. The parents are joining the PTA or whatever and their kids are getting laced up with Air Jordans.

Anne Swardson: My sentiments exactly. I think that older Kosovars probably will go home. But when those 20-somethings get a load of their first shopping mall, go to Mcdonald's--Pristina doesn't have one -- and get a home-delivered pizza, I think their resolve to go home is going to weaken considerably.

Boston, MA: Do you think NATO will send ground troops into Kosovo if the speculated political settlement does not occur soon? If so, what do you think the chances are that investigators from the International Criminal Tribunal will be allowed to go in at the same time, as Louise Arbor has suggested they should?

Anne Swardson: I just don't know about ground troops. It must be a terrible dilemma for NATO policy makers. I guess that's the price they pay for beginning the war by ruling out that option. I don't think investigators from the tribunal would go in with ground troops. Arbour said today that while they want to go in as soon as possible, they need a certain security to do their work.

Anne Swardson: I'd like to thank everyone for your interest. It's nice to know that so many readers care about this important issue.

Washingtonpost.com: Well that's all the time we have. Thanks to all who participated and thanks to Anne Swardson, who joined us live from Skopje, Macedonia.

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