Families...and So On, hosted by Washington Post families reporter Jacqueline L. Salmon, is a free-ranging and freewheeling look at the American family. This is the place to talk about the burning issues facing the 21st century family, such as whether the world really needs diaper-wipe heaters.

Join Jacqui to share tips on surviving family life, tell stories, throw out particular problems and then brainstorm solutions.

This week, Jacqui welcomes guest Katherine Tallmadge to talk about kid's nutrition and how to prepare healthy, easy-to-make food for children that they will eat. Katherine is a personal nutritionist for many athletes and chefs living in the metro area.

Jacqueline L. Salmon has been writing about suburban family life ("suburban" being a state of mind rather than a geographic location) for the last four years. She is married, has two children and (natch..) lives in the suburbs.

Jacqui's several lives as a mother have included stints as an at-home mom, working part-time and doing the mega-hour/mega-commute thing. She's also the co-author of three books on parenting and child development.

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Jacqui Salmon: Welcome, folks. The summer is winding down and we're turning our attention to back-to-school issues. Today we'll look at eating right when school schedules are eating up time and energy. Kids' nutrition is not a pretty picture, frankly. One out of every 5 children in this country is overweight, and many subsist on steady diets of junk food. So we're talking today to nutritionist Katherine Tallmadge about feeding our kids (and ourselves) healthy, wholesome food that your family might actually enjoy!

Jacqui Salmon: Welcome, Katherine. Let me start off with a question from my own life. Last Saturday, my husband and I compared notes and discovered to our horror that our son's total food intake that day consisted of two bowls of French Toast Crunch cereal, a hot dog, an ice cream cone for lunch and four sodas for dinner. I know, I know. That's not good. So let's start with the basics. What are the basic nutritional needs for kids each day?

Katherine Tallmadge: First of all, I wouldn't panic about what your son had. We all have days like that where we sort of eat for fun and enjoy ourselves. Fast foods and sweets can be part of a healthy diet. Our job is to make sure it's not predominately those foods, but can be enjoyed in moderation. The guidelines for children ages 2 to 6 is very similar to the food guide pyramid for adults. The food guide pyramid for kids calls four grain-group servings (like slices of bread or half cup of rice or pasta per serving). So that could be a cup of pasta or rice or cereal per meal or two slices of bread. A small amount of fat should be eaten at every meal. The guidelines is 30 percent of your total calorie intake (for children and adults). I know that expressing it like that is hard to understand. Eatright.org, the American Dietetic Association, has a food pyramid for young children.

Jacqui Salmon: How about fruits and vegetables? And how about some advice for getting kids (like my son) to eat fruits and veggies when potato chips and chocolate is more exciting? I don't want to FORCE him to eat healthy stuff. But if I don't insist, he most certainly won't help himself to it.

Katherine Tallmadge: That's a good question. It is recommended that kids and adults get 5 services of fruits and vegetables a day. That would be a piece of fruit or a half cup per serving. Getting kids to eat fruits and vegetables..Well, one study that just came out found that families that eat meals together, those children got more fruits and vegetables than families that don't eat together. It's important to make eating fun for children. Play games, ask your children to participate in buying and preparing foods. They're going to love things better if they make them. A good game, for example, is seeing how many colors you and your child can get into the salad bowl. Also, kids are more likely to eat fresh stuff is they're ready for consumption-displayed well and precleaned and chopped so they can eat them as finger goods. Also, exposing them to a variety of fruits and vegetables is very helpful. A child may need 10 to 20 tastes or exposures to a food before he picks it himself. SO don't give up if your child refuses broccoli or salads the first few times. Keep presenting it in a positive way and have them take a taste.

annapolis: Any realistic guidelines for toddlers (20 months old) besides 'expect the unexpected'? My son is very picky, and sometimes seems to live on nothing but juice and milk. Totally rejects fruit and veggies except for bananas and french fries (though I keep trying). He certainly looks healthy and is growing at a normal pace. Also, I have him on soy milk due to allergies, and he seems ok on that.

Katherine Tallmadge: The basic nutritional needs for children under the age of two is mainly milk or formula (such as soy, like your son). After six months of age, they need a food supplemented with iron. At 20 months, your son is starting to get into the food guidelines for children ages 2 to 6. Check out eatright.org, which will give you the food pyramid for children. But take heart. Children are picky! They have 'neo-food' phobia.) In other words, they don't like ANY new food, and that's natural and normal and part of our drive for survival-to only carefully taste new foods and to avoid anything bitter. The natural drive is to love sweet things. We all have that. So if you're trying to get your son to each more than just sweet things, it takes several introductions and taste and a lot of positive reinforcement and a lot of patience. Don't give up if your child rejects it! I've seen children who hated green beans at first but then turn out to love them after the 20th taste. The biggest mistake parents make is giving up after early rejection of foods.

Vienna, VA: I have a 4 year old who is actually a very good eater. (Yeah!!!) But, there are a few vegetables that I just can't convince her to even TRY. I'm big on disguising foods that she "doesn't like" - I use the food processor to pulverize carrots and add them to tomato sauce, serve vegetarian lasagnas, and feed her mushroom stuffed raviolis. I figure, if she doesn't know ALL of the ingredients and eats it, I've one a round! Of course, one of these foods is summer squash which is going nuts in my garden this year. Any suggestions for disguising it?

Katherine Tallmadge: Disguise summer squash? How about making them into sticks so the child can eat them with her fingers. And serve them with a dip. Kids love to dip foods. It sounds like you're doing a great job in introducing your child to new foods. Keep trying! Stay positive. No cajoling or punishing. That's a sure way to turn kids off to these foods.

washington, dc: what are two or three steps that can be taken
by parents or school administrators to address the problem of child obesity? Thank you. John Shaw

Katherine Tallmadge: First, it's important thing keep children physically active. But even more important is parents' modeling their behavior they want their children to have. They can't sit on the couch and then tell children to go out and get exercise. You may need to define the amount of computer and TV time that children can have so that they get out playing. It's very important that elementary children get 30 to 60 minutes of physical play every day. Maybe even up to several hours of this. You may need to get involved in your school to be a voice in making sure that gym classes and physically active recesses take place. And you can sign your child up for physically active after-school activities that he or she enjoys, such as dance, skating, anything fun. Even ping pong! Physical activity can ALSO be done as a family. Hike together, bike together, dance together. Physical activity can become part of children's value systems when they are initiated into it as part of family fun.

Reston VA: Hi. I have a question for the nutritionist. What does she think of the high-protein diets. Some people I know have lost some weight on them, but other people haven't. Is there any way to tell if it will work for you?

Katherine Tallmadge: The high-protein, very low carb diets are not recommended for health children-for adults and especially not for children. For the child in particular, getting a variety of food from all the food groups is critical for proper growth and development. For adults, the proper way to lose weight is by being physically active and figuring out what little things in your diet you can change. Usually something drastic like a high-protein diet may work temporarily (unfortunately, often by dehydrating people-another reason why children shouldn't do it).

Jacqui Salmon: Just fyi: Katherine has written a terrific article that ran in the Post's Health section last week (Aug. 22. She shows you how you can boost your resting metabolic rate-in other words, eat more and not gain weight. It has a formula that allows each individual to determine their calorie needs. But that's for adults!

va: It makes me really angry that one of the main ways that schools discipline children is by taking away recess, the kids' one chance to be active during the day. I think that this is unacceptable. I think that some form of unrestricted exercise and "play time" is just as important as math or reading. What do you think? And how can we get the schools to re-think this policy?

Katherine Tallmadge: I absolutely agree that physical activity is just as important as other school subjects. Taking it away has resulted in grave consequences for our children. The only way to have any control over PE and other physical activities for children in the schools is to get involved in your local community and school PTA. The federal government doesn't decide PE requirements, etc. It's a local issue.

DC: My toddler and preschooler get healthy foods -- when they eat. There are some days that they seem to eat non-stop and then they seem to go for days without eating anything. Nothing to worry about?

I also refuse to make individual dinners for everyone around the table -- what are some of your suggestions for dinners that adults and kids can agree on.

Katherine Tallmadge: Good question! It's normal for children's portions to vary widely from day to day. On some days, they might be more physically active than other days and that will change their food requirements. Kids eat when they're hungry, we've found. I agree that you shouldn't be a short-order cook for your family. Although you may try to have at least one item at each meal that a finicky eater will eat. You can choose foods that are simpler to prepare. And don't be disappointed if everyone's doesn't eat everything. Try to give everyone a job so they're involved in preparing the meal. Kids love that, and they enjoy the food more. All fun foods can also be healthy. You can buy leaner hot dogs, lean ground beef for burgers. Pizzas can be healthy if you keep them high in vegetables and less heavy on the pepperoni. Also, make dinner a special event. Everyone should be expected to sit at the dinner table for a certain length of time. No television or telephone calls. Make eye contact and just talk. Make it a pleasant event.

Jacqui Salmon: Katherine, in my household, the rule is that if you don't like what's being served for dinner, you can get up (quietly and quickly) and make yourself a peanut butter sandwich and bring it back to the table. Do you think that's a good idea?

Katherine Tallmadge: I don't see why not. If it's working for you and your family and the kids are happy with what they're getting. So long as they keep trying new foods, so what? It's very important that food and mealtimes not become battlegrounds. Just present foods positively and don't make a huge deal if kids don't want it. But don't give up either! Keep trying at future meals.

Jacqui Salmon: So, in other words, don't force children to eat? How about requiring them to at least take a few bites?

Katherine Tallmadge: No, don't force children to eat. If you have a household full of healthy foods, then the choices are all good foods. Peanut butter sandwiches and yogurt at the dinner table are fine. But not potato chips and Dr. Pepper. Those foods should be limited. They can be a part of a healthy diet, but in limited quantities.

Farragut Square, DC: I am frequently appalled when I see families solely feeding their children "kid's food" such as hot dogs, ramen noodles, french fries, and cheese sandwiches. My feeling is that a child by age 3 or so should more or less eat what the family eats. I also think that introducing children to the tastes of these salty, high-fat foods ruins their tastes for more wholesome foods. What is your take on this?

Katherine Tallmadge: I agree. Children should be exposed to more healthy foods. A lot of parents end up giving up and doing what's easy. And who can blame them in this busy world? It takes time and effort to raise a child who likes eating a variety of healthy foods. But the effort is worth it-for that child's long-term healthy, as well as the child's short-term energy levels and physical development.

McLean, VA: Can you suggest some foods for packing school lunches? I have a 6 year old... I want to pack nutritious lunches--but any suggestions since lunches are not refrigerated?

Katherine Tallmadge: As a matter of fact, I found some great tips on the eatright.org. It has a whole section on back-to-school nutrition. The first step is to make sure the child leaves home with a healthy breakfast. Very imporant! That way, they are more able to learn and stay awake and energetic until lunch. As for lunches, pack a lunch or have your child eat a school lunch. School lunches are supposed to comply with U.S.D.A. dietary guidelines, but often because schools use food sales as revenue-raising, there are other foods available that are not within USDA guidelines. That's happening more and more at schools these days. Ice cream sandwiches, french fries-those are hard for a kid to resist. Keep a current school lunch menu in your kitchen and go over them each day and talk about the choices with your child. If your child takes their lunch, insulated lunch boxes are fantastic. An ideal lunch is any kind of sandwich with lean luncheon meat, fruit, yogurt and, with all that healthy stuff, a small bag of chips. Other lunch ideas are cold chicken, even a slice of cold healthy pizza. If your child can take a snack to school, yogurt, luncheon meats, cottage cheese, slices of cheese, ready-to-eat fruits and veggies, animal crackers, bags of cereal, dry fruit.

Memphis, TN: Thanks for the discussion. Was wondering your opinion about organics for kids. I am the father of a 3 and 7 year old and am trying to feed them more and more organics. Still have chips and cookies as treats but made with organic ingredients. We have been eating this way for several years and the kids know no other way now. Cost more but it is worth it in my opinion.

Katherine Tallmadge: If you can afford organic foods, why not? Personally, I agree that fresh, organic food is a wonderful option-although not everyone has that option.

Somewhere, USA: My 8-year-old stepson is willing to try new foods, but insists on living on a diet of hot-dogs, pizza, burgers, and other fast food. He lives with his mother most of the time and she rarely, if ever cooks (but he does get "oreo o's" from her for breakfast). The boy now thinks that the lettuce and tomato on his chicken sandwich from Popeye's constitutes as vegetables. On several occasions, he has come to our house, from his mother's saying he's "starving". When he's with his father and me, we try to have family meals as much as possible...well-rounded with protein, veggies, carbs, etc. He really enjoys the "family time" at the table AT HOME. Is there anyway we can communicate to his mother (who rarely eats) that he's depending on her and her bad habits are becoming a reflection on him?

Katherine Tallmadge: That sounds more like a family-counselor issue than a nutrition issue. It sounds like you're doing the right thing by introducing him to new foods and a different and more civilized way of eating. My opinion is that's probably all you can do. As far as changing the mother, I don't know if that's within your power.

Germantown, MD: Hi! My sixteen-month old daughter was born with a congenital heart defect for which she has had two surgeries. She seems to be growing normally and doing just fine. Her cardiologist said that he is not concerned at this point about limiting her diet. But...I've read in the past that eating habits established as a child can influence whether a person will have weight problems in later life. Should we limiting the foods that she eats now, with an eye to the future? And if so...can you suggest some heart friendly snacks that are relatively easy to make?

Katherine Tallmadge: The best thing to do is to stick with your child's physician's advice. You may want to work with a nutritionist. You can find local nutritionists at eatright.org.

McLean, VA: What's your opinion on Lunchables?

Katherine Tallmadge: I don't want to sound like a fuddy-duddy! In a pinch and occasionally, Lunchables are fine. Probably better than fat-laden Chinese takeout. But I wouldn't use them daily. Use them infrequently. Remember that you're trying to get your child open to new foods and a variety of foods. Fast foods tend to reinforce the salty, fatty flavors and don't open the child to new food experiences. As a society, we're getting too far away from home-prepared meals and it's costing us dearly. Even though it might take an extra 10 minutes to slap together a sandwich and throw in a yogurt and a small bag of chips, it's worth it.

VA: I'd like to recommend "The 15-minute vegetarian gourmet" by Paulette Mitchell for anyone trying to eat a healthier diet. The recipes are all very flavorful, and many would appeal to kids. Also, the quick preparation time is well suited to people with children. This is my favorite cookbook.

Katherine Tallmadge: Thanks for the recommendation.

Vienna, VA: RE: Summer Squash, I had to ask!! I hadn't thought of that, and she loves to dip, so thanks! I'll try it.

For how to get the child to eat the fruits and vegetables, I give mine the choice... For dinner do you want corn, peas or greenbeans. She picks it then she eats it. Last night she actually chose broccoli. For after school snacks, she's not EVER given chips or candy as a choice. She has a choice of whatever fresh fruits we have in the house. Do you want grapes, a banana, kiwi, cantaloupe or apple? If she says none of the above, that's fine...dinner usually isn't too long after we get home.

Katherine Tallmadge: Excellent idea. Giving children a range of choices lets them have more control over what they're eating-and they enjoy it more. Of course, you have sneakily given them only healthy choices. Great idea.

Silver Spring, MD: My 11-year-old daughter has enthusiastically embraced vegetarianism and I applaud and support her in every way. She has been very thoughtful and creative in sticking to her dietary beliefs for over four months so I think she will stick with it for the long run. I am concerned however that she is not getting enough protein in her diet and would like some suggestions for school lunches that are not totally peanut butter based.

Katherine Tallmadge: Good question. Peanut butter doesn't have a lot of protein in it. It's mostly fat. If a child is a vegetarian, it's important that she have beans or a bean product in every meal. Such as soy milks, tofu, textured vegetable protein (it looks like ground beef). You can add milk powder to the peanut butter sandwich. Yogurt would also be very good. I think bean burritos are great. Slopping joes made out of tofu are also good. There are also tofu hot dogs and 'boca burgers.' They're made with soy protein and they're delicious. Bean and rice salads. Child vegetarians need beans or a bean product at every meal to get enough protein. But keep in mind that children who eat dairy products or eggs as part of their vegetarian regimen are probably getting sufficient protein from those foods, as long as they're eating something high protein at every meal.

va: Because schools are becoming more and more crowded, many schools are staggering lunches to have enough space in the cafeteria. This means that some kids eat lunch as early as 10:45, while others don't eat until almost 1:00! It is very hard for a young child to go from 8:00 am until 1:00pm without eating, yet schools seem reluctant to incorporate any sort of "snack time." I think this is terrible, but teachers won't allow children to eat in class, so they have to suffer through until lunch time. It's so hard to get the schools to change anything, I really don't know what to do. But I do know that, as an adult, I cannot go for 5 hours without eating.

Katherine Tallmadge: I agree! Can you give your child a yogurt to have at 10 or 11 if they don't eat lunch until 1? If not, become involved with your school PTA or in their food service program, because you're right, children need that nourishment. They can't go 5-6 hours between meals without a snack. They just can't function in school for that many hours without food.

MD: My husband has the pickiness of a kid. He won't eat fruits or veggies and prefers high-fat methods of cooking (frying, sauté in butter, etc). I have taken to trying "assembly" sorts of foods where he can load up on the fatty stuff & have meat and I can concentrate on veggies and low-fat options. Some examples are fajitas (he uses ground beef, beans, cheese, & salsa; I use beans, veggies, a bit of cheese, and salsa) and pasta (he chooses meatballs & marianara sauce on, I choose roasted veggies & olive oil). But I am all out of ideas. Do you have any suggestions on how to make 2 meals for 2 people without actually cooking 2 separate meals? BTW, when I say "I'm having such-and-such, you're on your own", he says "OK" and drives out to McDonald's. Yuck.

Katherine Tallmadge: Have you tried to compromise? Add some veggies to his marinara or see if he would like some salsa in his fajita? A lot of us who are passionate about nutrition have to be careful about not turning our loved ones off. It's important that we can compromise, knowing that maybe our loved ones may not be as conscientious as we are. Try the softer, gentler, slower approach. Maybe you can make sure when he has pizza that there are some veggies, such as mushrooms and peppers on it. Expect SMALL successes and reward very small successes. If that doesn't work, you can try reverse psychology. Eat and enjoy your food without getting him to change anything to see if he'll come around. Spouses and family members often come around if you leave them alone and set a positive lesson. Have you tried peeling grapes for him in bed? A fun idea!

Jacqui Salmon: We're out of time now. Your questions were just great. Katherine, thanks for joining us and how about some final words?

Katherine Tallmadge: I think it's important that eating healthy should be positive family experience. Food preparation shouldn't be lost as an art or activity in the family. Children need to be taught the fundamentals of food preparation and cooking. They love it when you involved them in the kitchen. Then they are more likely to enjoy the healthy foods they will them a lifetime, and they will inspire their friends and their future families to eat healthy and cook well. Physical activity must be a positive family activity as well. Establishing healthy physical activity patterns is critical for growing up healthy and staying healthy. But it's important that physical activity and healthy food preparation be positive family activities. Children will remember them for rest of their lives. Hang in there! Your children will thank you over and over when they're healthy adults.