Michael Dirda (The Post)

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Lord of the Rings:
The Fellowship of the Ring
Hosted by Michael Dirda
Washington Post Book World Senior Editor
Monday, Nov. 12, 2001; 2 p.m. EDT

On December 19th the first of three highly anticipated screen adaptation of J.R.R. Tolkien's book "The Fellowship of the Rings" will be released nationwide. In anticipation of the films and the rekindled interest in Tolkien's work, Washington Post Book World Senior Editor and Pulitzer Prize winning literary critic Michael Dirda will be hosting a series of online discussions focusing on "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy.

This week, Dirda took questions on "The Fellowship of the Ring," the second of Tolkien's books set in Middle-Earth.

The transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Michael Dirda: Welcome to the second online discussion of J.R.R. Tolkien's great cycle of Middle Earth. Two weeks back we talked about The Hobbit, partly as an independent children's story and partly as the overture to the full symphony of The Lord of the Rings. This week we focus primarily on The Fellowship of the Ring, but I suspect that questions will embrace the whole trilogy, its meaning, ethos and poetry. I should alert the more ardent Tolkien fans that I am an admirer of his work, but not to zealotry. I also revere the comparable fantasies of Mervyn Peake, T.H. White, and Philip Pullman. But perhaps we can talk about this as well as orcs and Sauron and hobbits and a certain lost and found ring.
On with this week's show!

Arlington, Va.: To what cause would you chalk up the distaste for Tolkien on the part of so many literary critics, and do you expect their attitudes to change as a result of the recent resurgence of interest in his work?

Michael Dirda: I don't think it's Tolkien that is disliked so much as fantasy in general. Most critics grew up on the realistic novel, and tend to believe that the mainstream from Defoe on provides the model for what fiction should be. In fact, fantasy, loosely defined, is the most dominant form of storytelling in the world. Greek myths, Grimm fairy tales, African folktales, Latin-American magic-realism, post-modern experimentalism--all these tend to eschew the strict truth to life ideal of "a mirror traveling down a roadway" (Stendhal's formulation).
If you insist that a novel needs to be about the way we live now and describe exactly that way, then obviously Tolkien's world of ents and orcs is going to seem fanciful and childish. But it is, in fact, an artfully whole secondary world and within it he can work out the course of civilizations, complex ideas, elaborate histories and consequences.
Remember: comments on my responses or on questions themselves are always welcome.

Washington, D.C.: Hi Michael -- My question is about the relationship between Sam and Frodo. Sam is his dedicated servant, and Frodo is a loyal friend. But Frodo never seems to fully understand or respect the level of commitment that Sam has for him. For instance, there are times in the book where Tolkien describes Frodo being taken off for counsel, and Sam is left behind and seems to be forgotten. We get a picture of Frodo taking that attitude in general. When Sam is around, Frodo is glad, but if he isn't, Frodo isn't going to fret about it, thus not giving him the same respect he is given. In the end I think it evens out, and when they return to the Shire in the 3rd book, Sam truly comes into his own. But prior to that, what are we supposed to learn from this relationship?

Michael Dirda: That Frodo is a jerk? Or that he has the same attitude toward servants as an Oxford don? The two hobbits are of different classes and Tolkien demonstrates this by their (stereotypical?) attitudes toward each other. Fortunately, Sam is there when he's really needed.

Alexandria, Va.: How did Tolkien get the ideas for these books?

Michael Dirda: From sheer genius, combined with wide knowledge of Northern mythology and story, and a profound understanding of ancient languages like Old English and Norse.

Arlington, Va.: Do you think Tolkien had a specific narrative or thematic purpose in mind when he decided to include the Tom Bombadil interlude, or was he simply including him out of nostalgic affection for a character he had previously created?

Michael Dirda: I'm sure a thematic purpose could be found, but that section does seem like an interlude, a glimpse of a prelapsariain Middle Earth, beyond good and evil, before the sanguinary battles begin.

Vancouver, BC, Canada: 1. Do you think that escapism into the immense world of fantasy and magic that Tolkien imagined, is a beneficial, or detrimental vehicle in serving to avoid today's global realities?

2. Will expediting Tolkien's vision into the mainstream pop-culture via a grossly summarized and dumbed-down format, serve to positively promote, or to belittle, exploit, degrade, and ultimately destroy his magical world, that so many of his faithful followers have nurtured and protected over the years?

3. Is nothing sacred in our capitalistic, materialistic technological media driven quests to own and exploit, everything and anything for the sake of a buck?

Perhaps some things are better left to the imagination -- or in the hands of believers that truly respect such ideals, and are capable and willing to respectfully pass on such knowledge and ideologies responsibly through the written word, and the near lost craft of verbal interactive storytelling. I have serious doubts as to whether a corrupt and phony institution such as Hollywood could ever promote Tolkien's complex precious jewel with the respect and authenticity it rightly deserves. We shall see...

Michael Dirda: 1) I suppose too much of even a good thing may be detrimental, but for the most part I can't see anything but good in reading or escaping into Tolkien. ON the most simplistic level, he teaches the values of moral commitment, courage, endurance and faith, while also reminding us of how much our destinies are determined by time and fate. On another level, he simply offers comfort for those afflicted in troubled time. Here, one knows, all will be well.

2) Movies these days are spectacle. I suspect the film will suggest something of Middle Earth's magic and beauty, but will slight Tolkien's sturdy poetry. Film tends to turn the subtle into the obvious.

3) Nothing is sacred.

Washington, D.C.: Why do you think The Hobbit was written as a fairy tale for children, but The Lord of the Rings is complex and directed at adults?

Michael Dirda: Yes. We discussed some of this last time. The Hobbit may be, in some ways, a tighter, more focused work of art as well. The Lord of the Rings suggests so much more than it says--and so we have all these supplementary volumes about Middle Earth, starting with The Silmarillion.

Arlington, Va.: I think that because of the events of September 11, Tolkien's works will become even more popular -- because of the epic struggle between good and evil that parallels what the United States is experiencing right now (for children). I am thirty-two, however, I found myself re-reading the trilogy, and found it comforting somehow.

Michael Dirda: Yes, I think it is comforting right now. My colleague, Cliff Sloan, has written a terrific piece on this theme, comparing the Harry Potter cycle with contemporary events and tracing parallels and suggesting that it, too , functions as a way of understanding and confronting evil. If my producer Meredith is watching, maybe he can dig up Sloan's piece. Othewise you might want to look for it online.

washingtonpost.com: Deconstructing Harry (Newsweek, Oct. 4, 2001)

Alexandria, Va.: It may be relevant to note that The Lord of the Rings is not a true trilogy in the sense that is not three separate works with a common theme. LotR is actually a single story that was a broken into three volumes, not by Tolkien, but by his publishers to make it more marketable. There is even speculation that Tolkien himself didn't come up with the three titles of the volumes, but someone working at the publishers did.

Michael Dirda: Yes, I know it's a single novel, but for discussion purposes we're taking it in its three parts. I do think The Two Towers is rather a weak title for the middle volume.

Eagle River, Alaska: About Tolkien's "bad" poetry: The Lord of The Rings has fascinated me for many years. I've read the series more than a dozen times, but, like most people, I relished the prose and endured the poetry. Then, about twelve years ago, I gained a fresh insight. While dutifully struggling through a poetic passage, my then wife, looking over my shoulder, began to sing the very verse I was reading. My annoyance at the interruption to my concentration quickly changed to wonder as I listened and experienced the poetry in song. Her ethereal (almost elvish) voice and melody unlocked the passage in a way nearly magical. When she finished, I asked her to sing it again -- and again was entranced by visions of the Riverdauther, Goldberry, dancing in the starlight among the lilies by the river's edge. I then asked her to sing other passages and the result was the same. Astonishingly, she had never before read Tolkien or even the very passages she sang, and the melody was not borrowed, but spontaneously created from the flow she perceived in the language. I surmised that the poetry was meant to be sung, not contemplatively read in silence. I concluded that the deficiency in Tolkien's poetry was in the reader. Now, I consider the poetry more beautiful than the prose by far. Sadly, I cannot hear the magical melodies myself and the one who sang them for me is gone.

Michael Dirda: What a lovely note. And a touching last sentence. Gone must be the loneliest word in English. Still, I do believe that some audio versions of the LotR includes the poetry sung -- didn't Flanders (or was it Swann) compose music for the Hobbit and LOTR. Or am I misremembering? The Road Goes ever on.

Washington, D.C.: I can't be present for the on-line discussion but just wanted to leave a quick comment. I have been a loyal Tolkien fan for 30 years and love his work. It should be noted however that according to all sources I have read he was a reluctant popular writer. His first and dearest love was language and his stories evolved out of both that interest and his desire to provide a mythology for Britain. The Hobbit was written to entertain his children and to investigate his characters and The Lord of the Rings was written to study them further -- primarily because the fans of the Hobbit were so insistent that his story continue. Tolkien was a very private person and all this attention paid to his work and life would not doubt have made him as uncomfortable as it would have amused him.

Here's hoping the movies live up to the challenge and quality of the books.

Michael Dirda: Thanks for the informed comment.

Washington, D.C.: It may be interesting for Vancouver to note that Tolkien was very keen on the idea of making his story into a film.

Michael Dirda: I didn't know this. Was it so that his "message" would be promulgated? Or did he just want to see his world made flesh?

Bethesda, Md.: On re-reading the Hobbit and LOTR, I was struck with the similarities between this work and the Harry Potter series.
Examples:

Both have spiders that take protagonists away into the forest (I like the Hobbit's spider scenes better than those in Harry Potter -- the escape was more clever).

Both have magical devices that make their bearers invisible -- the ring, and Harry's invisibility cloak.

Both have an evil dark lord who is foiled by an unlikely hero.

There are other similarities. Are these similarities explained, in your view, by the fact that they aren't all that original to begin with (did Tolkien get them from other sources), or by the fact that the author of the Harry Potter series was, consciously or not, echoing what she had read of Tolkien?

Michael Dirda: Probably all your answers to your questions are correct. Certainly Tolkien knew his mythology and would have no trouble with invisibility (think of the Tarnhelm). And J.K. Rowling certainly read or at least knew by osmosis the work of Tolkien. I suspect that fantasies like those of Tolkien and Rowling partake of the archetypal, a descent into the Jungian collective unconsciousness of the race. Hence the Wise Old Man, the Dark Lord, the life-giving beautiful Woman, the magic that comes from within as much as without.

Chicago, Ill.: Despite the author's objections that 'The Lord of the Rings' was just a story for entertainment, it seems to have a transcultural and transgenerational resonance with people. What if anything is the Trilogy really saying to people?
Thanks.

Michael Dirda: Art isn't about messages, it's about the creation of waking dreams through language (or colors or sounds). The whole texture of Middle Earth, in all its complexity and gaudiness and history, is Tolkien's real message. But its subsidiary ones must include a tribute to moral fortitude in the face of evil.

Lexington, Ken.: I know Tom Bombadil does not have a large role in the book, but he does illustrate an omnipotent kind of continuity between powerful characters (namely through Gandalf). My question is this, do you think it is prudent to omit this character from the film?

Michael Dirda: Well, I don't think of film as ever being faithful -- it's simply another way of telling the same story. And film has to leave out so much already, so discarding a major, if slightly irrelevant character may not be as disastrous as it sounds.

Winston-Salem, N.C.: Don't think I'll be able to make the chat. Is there any better advice for reading The Fellowship of the Ring then that my brother gave me when I got bogged down early on and I passed onto my son: skip Tom Bombadil? I understood that the movie also makes this choice.

Michael Dirda: Sure, one can skip anything. I don't see how anyone can put down the book once the Dark Riders appear, or when the Fellowship meets Strider at the inn.

Washington, D.C.: Can you suggest some background reading for the film? I'd like to know more about his inspiration, but I'm not trying to be obsessive about it.

For instance -- mythology, folklore, etc.

Thanks.

Michael Dirda: Read the book. But you might also enjoy W.P. Ker's The Dark Ages, a wonderful account of the dark, oppressive world of the sagas and epics. In it he says the archetypal saga moment is "the defense of a narrow place against odds." At one time there was a Mentor paperback.

Albuquerque, N.M.: We are 8 and 10 year old kids who are very interested in Tolkien since our dad read them to us a few years ago. What was Tolkien trying to symbolize with the ring that could be both good by helping Frodo turn invisible and bad by turning him crazy?

Michael Dirda: Well, the ring is always bad, even if it temporarily helps those who use its power. Always beware of easy solutions to one's problems might be one lesson of the ring's nature.
Anyone else want to help our young auditors?

Arlington, Va.: Tolkien also had a fervent love of the history of the British Isles, which is evident in his writing. I was re-reading the Appendices at the end of Return of the King, and the history of the Numenorean Kings or the House of Eorl could well be likened to the history of the Plantagenets or Viking dynasties. How great it must have been to write something that so many people enjoy, incorporating all your interests and hobbies!

Michael Dirda: Yes, indeed.

Pittsburgh, Pa.: To your knowledge, was Tolkein influenced in any way by Richard Wagner's "Der Ring des Niebelungen?"

Michael Dirda: He must have known the operas, and certainly the doom-laden world view of the Ring cycle is similar to that in parts of the Lord of the Rings. There is, of course, the magic ring, as well, and the Tarnhelm that grants invisibility, and the working out of a complex pattern over several generations, and dwarves and giants and other supernatural creatures. And love lies at the heart of everything.

Philadelphia, Pa.: What do you make of the Lancelot/ Elaine/ Gwynhefer triangle with Arwen, Eowyn and Aragon? I read a lit criticism of this topic while I was researching a paper on Lancelot in some of the original French texts -- it's really interesting to see how many mythologies Tolkein brought into play in very subtle ways in his books -- but with a happier ending (Eowyn with Faramir, for instance).

Michael Dirda: Can you explain what you learned, if there's time?

Arlington, Va.: Taken as a whole, Tolkien's work seems to describe how magic and the supernatural have withdrawn from the world, yet he was a professed Christian. Do you see any incongruity or conflict there?

Michael Dirda: There might well be conflicts, but certainly a Catholic -- as Tolkien was -- would know that we are living as exiles from a lost paradise, that actions alone are not enough to save us, but that we also need supernatural grace. I think you could fit LOTR into a Christian frame--with a bit of planing and pushing.

Silver Spring, Md.: I'm with Winston-Salem: When people complain about problems getting into the first book, I tell them to skip ahead to Bree and the Prancing Pony. The Barrowdowns are great, foreshadowing the evil ahead, but there's a lot of English pastoral nostalgia that doesn't seem to fit as well with the darkness of the rest of the book. It's worthwhile to reread all of the book later, but I find that for some people it can help to cut to Strider, the battle on Weathertop, and the race to the Ford. That's where, to paraphrase Terry Pratchett, it gets truly miffic.

Michael Dirda: Yes, indeed. Though I rather like that evocation of the pastoral, But then mine is a gentle, docile soul, ever looking for a tranquillity that escapes me in real life.

Albuquerque, N.M.: Is there a Tolkien museum in England? We are going there with our mom and dad for Christmas.

Michael Dirda: Don't know, don't think so. Does anyone know for sure, one way or the other? You can probably find this out on some kind of Tolkien Web site.

Washington, D.C.: Any thoughts on the phenomenon in the Fellowship of the Ring where friends become enemies, i.e. Gandalf and Saruman, and the enemies who become friends, Gimli and Legolas? Perhaps this is interesting only to me, but I have always thought on this parallel between the two sets of characters.

Michael Dirda: I would suppose it's part of the ongoing existential pattern: To some degree we are what we choose to be at any particular moment. As a result, we can wipe out the good of half a lifetime in a moment. Or redeem ourselves in the same way. Isn't this a Christian attitude too? Even the worst sinner can repent and be saved -- and vice-versa. flux.

Alexandria, Va.: The Bombadil interlude was included by Tolkien as away to include some ideas in the story that might otherwise be left out. Other than saying that Tolkien was fairly cryptic on Bombadil other than to refer to him as an enigma rather than anomaly. If Bombadil is truly an enigma, one can assume then that there are clues as to his identity and role in the larger Tolkien cosmology elsewhere in the story. This school of thought has led to years of speculation and detective work as to who Tom is and what exact role he fulfills. There is some fascinating reading out there. Try "who is Tom Bombadil" or "what is Tom Bombadil" in your search engine and see what you come up with.

Michael Dirda: thanks

Washington, D.C.: I asked about background reading earlier --

I have read the book; I'm looking for additional reading before Jackson's vision hits in December. What are the myths to study?

Michael Dirda: See my earlier answer. You should then read the Northern myths and sagas.

wiredog: In the Foreword to LoTR Tolkein says that he started the Silmarillion first but, in order to actually sell books, put that aside and wrote LoTR. I think that accounts for the backstory that shows up throughout.

Just finished Fellowship on Sunday, starting Towers today.

Michael Dirda: Hope you're enjoying it.

Washington, D.C.: For me, the 'Fellowship' was the best of the three stories -- the background, depth, hidden vista's and story lines were the most well thought out and written -- the other two stories seemed more like 'pot boilers.' Do you agree or am I just too impressed with the Moria section?

Michael Dirda: The Moria section is just about my favorite too. Though I'm very fond of the chapter where Aragorn enters the cave and summons the spirits of the army that failed in its duties years before. The last sentence is something like Aragorn leaves the cave "And the dead followed." Still gives me goose-bumps. Still, there are times when the idea of the Lord of the Rings is actually better than its execution.

Washington, D.C.: Would you agree that a possible moral of LOTR is "Don't judge a book by its cover?"

Michael Dirda: Yes. You mean in the largest sense, I trust.

Englewood, N.J.: Why do you suppose there is more urgency in the "Hobbit" than in the "Fellowship of the Ring"? I recently re-read the first book. I had never paid attention the first time to the length of time the characters spent waiting or planning, whereas in the "Hobbit" the Dwarves imbued a sense of urgency to their mission although on face value reclaiming gold is less important than destroying the One Ring.

Michael Dirda: It's just a shorter, more compact work--a single adventure. Perhaps Tolkien shifted from being a story teller to becoming a mythmaker.

Los Angeles, Calif.: Suddenly I see an almost one-to-one simile between LOTR and the current terrorist situation: The Shire = the U.S. (and all democratic countries); Bin Laden = Sauron; the Taliban = the Orcs, our armed forces = the Rangers, etc. What say you?

Michael Dirda: This is similar to Sloan's piece about Harry Potter. Lord Voldemort as bin Laden; etc. etc. Evil is trite? The battle between the forces of good and evil is always the same?

Philadelphia, Pa.: In short -- that Strider is meant to represent Lancelot in his quest for the Holy Grail -- single minded determination, the best fighter, possible other-worldy ancestors, and love for a woman that he can't have (although in the book it's self-imposed restraint, not marriage to another). When Eowyn falls in love with him, it's similar to Elaine with the images in the mirror -- she's in love with a perception, not reality... but he's already in love with another, who he remains true to throughout the book. Lancelot may or may not have married, depending on the version, but his heart always belonged to Gwynhefer.

Michael Dirda: thanks

St. Paul, Minn.: Hi Michael, I find that the Fellowship of the Ring has tremendously powerful hooks for readers. This summer I reread the Lord of the Rings (for the first time since junior high school) thinking that I could just read the first book and then hold off on the second until next year when the second movie is released. No chance -- once I was past Bree there was no turning back. I devoured the rest of the books in a couple of weeks. What is it about the story's construction do you think that is so irresistible?

Michael Dirda: It's a quest--we want to see it brought to its fulfillment. And we wonder: Will Frodo destroy the ring?

Virginia: Interested in your take: Why is this book so immensely popular? Why did it sell so well, to become the most popular book of the 20th century? Would you agree that it is The Book of the 20th century?

Michael Dirda: Depends on what you mean by book of the century. It's certainly universally popular, but Ulysses is closer to my idea of the book of the century. It's popular I suspect because we yearn for adventure, both spiritual and actual. We all want to live lives of consequence.

Albuquerque, N.M.: Why weren't there more female characters in Tolkien's stories?

Michael Dirda: There weren't many in his sources and in ancient literature, so maybe he lacked models. Oxford too was largely a male world. Or Tolkien felt he couldn't draw women characters well.

Washington, D.C.: Strange questions, but maybe worth a shot: Who are our modern day Frodos?

Michael Dirda: Who indeed?

Albuquerque, N.M.: We have also read Pullman's Golden Compass trilogy. How does this trilogy compare to the Lord of the Rings?

Michael Dirda: I think Pullman's is the great children's fantasy of our time. It moves more swiftly than LOTR, but contains nearly as many kinds of people and events. And it is just as dark, with a similar bitter-sweet ending. Renunciation and loss seem to be the fate of all heroes.
And with that we seem to have come to the end of our hour. Be sure to check back for our next session on the Lord of the Ring on November 30 at 2. That'll give you plenty of time to read The Two Towers. Till then, Frodo Lives!