| Q&A With Bob Levey
Washington Post Columnist
Tuesday, Aug. 20, 2002; Noon EDT "Levey Live" appears Tuesdays at noon EDT. Your host is Washington Post columnist Bob Levey. This hour is your chance to talk directly to key Washington Post reporters and editors, local officials and people in the news. Today, Bob’s guest is Robert Gordon, music journalist, filmmaker and author of the recent biography, “Can’t Be Satisfied: The Life and Times of Muddy Waters.”  | Robert Gordon
| Since completing his writing of his Muddy Waters biography, Gordon has also written the wall text for the Stax Museum of American Soul Music, which opens in Memphis in 2003. He will also create several of the short films that run in the museum. He is currently serving as writer and associate producer on the Memphis Blues episode of Martin Scorsese's 7-part PBS series, “The Blues.” His own documentary, “Muddy Waters Can't Be Satisfied,” which he produced and directed with Morgan Neville, airs as part of Thirteen/WNET New York's American Masters series on PBS next season. Gordon has written for major music magazines in the United States and England, and is the author of several books, including “It Came From Memphis” and two books on Elvis Presley: “The King on the Road” and the forthcoming “The Elvis Treasures.” As a filmmaker, Gordon directed the award-winning blues documentary “All Day and All Night,” featuring B.B. King and Rufus Thomas, which aired nationally on PBS and was exhibited at the Museum of Modern Art, NY. He produced the Al Green box set “Anthology,” for which his liner notes were nominated for a Grammy in 1998. His music video work has appeared on MTV, BET, and CMT. Gordon lives in Memphis, Tennessee, with his wife Tara, and their two children.
The transcript follows. Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
Bob Levey: Good afternoon, Mr. Gordon, and welcome to "Levey Live." I always try not to gush, but your book about Muddy Waters is an amazing achievement. The man has been dead for nearly 20 years, the Mississippi in which he grew up is long gone, the blues aren't very popular any more--yet you have recreated a classic American life. Was the book difficult to do, given the hurdles I've just mentioned? Robert Gordon: Thanks for having me here Bob.
The book was VERY difficult to do, for those hurdles and more.
It took me 5 years of research, mostly knocking on doors and beating the bushes. Muddy was illiterate, and from a society -- sharecropping -- about which records weren't kept, so there was no file cabinet with Muddy's secret journal or revealing correspondence to find. It was, largely, an oral history.
Long Beach, Calif.: Why is Big Boy Crudup listed as the "first" blues guy to play rock n'roll? And did Muddy Waters ever play anything other than blues? Robert Gordon: Lots of people are listed as the first bluesman, lots of records are listed as the first rock and roll record, and lots of blues guys are said to be the first to play rock and roll.
I think of Crudup as a country blues player, though his style lends itself easily to rock and roll. He originated the song "That's All Right Mama," which was Elvis's first record for Sun Records (1954), and that may be why some cite him as the first rock and roll player, though I wouldn't agree.
Muddy playing other forms? He was a deep blues player at heart, favoring slow songs. However, in the 1960s, in a misguided attempt to reach a wider audience, Chess packaged him with a huge brass ensemble, like a Sinatra session layed over blues--it didn't work. And later in the 60s, they put him with some Miles Davis-like jazz cats, creating the "psychedelic blues" album Electric Mud. It has more redeeming qualities than you might think, though it's not always an easy listen.
Somewhere, USA: Are you Robert Gordon, onetime Rockabilly star? If so, aren't you from the D.C. area? I went to school in Bethesda with folks who claimed they were your cousins or nephews. Robert Gordon: While I have cousins, nephews, and creditors all over the US, I have been asked by my wife and family not to sing--rockabilly or anything. I am the writer RG, and a fan of the rockabilly singer of the same name.
My girl, by the way, is red hot.
Bob Levey: It's easy to cry foul about Muddy Waters and money. He obviously never got as much as he deserved, and had to sue for a lot of what he did get. But wasn't this to some degree his own fault? The man was illiterate and extremely unsophisticated, after all. Please comment. Robert Gordon: There's more reason than Muddy's illiteracy to cry foul about the money. In defense of the Chess Brothers at Chess Records, they were forging a new road. There wasn't a book where they could find advice on how to run a small blues record label. In my book (Can't Be Satisfied: The Life and Times of Muddy Waters (buy it now)) I tell about several instances when they took from a successful Chess artist's royalties to give to a longtime favorite (Howlin' Wolf for example) when the latter's sales were low. The Robin Hood method of accounting.
However, the Chesses (and Gene Goodman, their publishing partner), did some straight up bad stuff (had Muddy sign blank forms, for example, as a way to try to take ownership from him of his songs--around 1972). The bad publishing deal was settled out of court, with payments to Muddy, later in the 1970s.
Alexandria, Va.: I listened to Muddy Waters Live at Newport and I can hardly hear the electric guitar. Was Waters ever a guitarist the way that B.B. King was? Robert Gordon: Wouldn't you love to have sent a great engineer back in time to Newport or, even better, to Smitty's Corner or Pepper's Lounge, a Chicago south side club on a night when Muddy and the fellas were just kicking it wild and raucous for kicks? I searched out such tapes, hunting down several rumors, but turned up nothing.
BB King told me that Muddy opened doors for him. "When Muddy was playing, I was plowing--mules that is" he says in our Muddy Waters documentary which will air on American Masters (PBS) next June.
BB plays a single-string style in the manner of T-Bone Walker; Muddy plays a slide guitar style. Listen to songs like "Still A Fool," "Standing Around Crying," or "She' Alright" to hear him loud and clear.
Chicago, Ill.: How much does my new hometown figure into blues history? I'm still exploring Chicago and would love to more about its musical history. Robert Gordon: In my book, Can't Be Satisfied: The Life and Times of Muddy Waters (have you bought it yet--hold it close to the screen so I can feel it... good, very good), I try to tell the story not only of Muddy, but of all the blues--because Muddy lived the whole period. I trace the blues from its roots in the Mississippi Delta (around the time of Charlie Patton), to its refinement there, and then its move north to Chicago.
Muddy wasn't the first to go to chicago, nor the first to play electric guitar, but he was the one who assembled the band, the electric band, that extended the feeling of the solo blues artist to a whole group. He created the urban, city blues as we know it today (and, as a result, created the foundation of rock and roll).
Can you hold that book up to the screen again? Mmmmm....
Washington, D.C.: Do you play an instrument yourself? If so, do you find that makes it easier to be a music journalist? I am interested in music journalism but don't know too much about music terminology/technique -- I just know what I like and don't like. Any advice? Robert Gordon: I'm a fan, writing from the perspective of the audience. Knowing what you like and don't like is the first step; after that, you have to be able to express those feelings, and justify them.
Bob Levey: Why didn't you call the book "The Hoochie Coochie Man" (the title of one of Muddy's most famous songs)? Seems somewhat obvious, at least to me..... Robert Gordon: That was the the title that wasn't. Muddy certainly lived the life of the hoochie coochie man. (If you have to ask what hoochie coochie is, you don't need to know.) In doing the research for my book (did I mention the title? It's Can't Be Satisfied: The Life and Times of Muddy Waters), I tried to get past the man on the stage and to the man at home. The two great breakthroughs were befriending Muddy's granddaughter Cookie, whom he raised, and meeting his girlfriends (through his children--all outside his marriage). He was the Hoochie Coochie Man, but I found that even that was explained by his life as a sharecropper. He was 30 when he left the delta, and that time in a culture of submission seemed to explain everything about him. He couldn't be satisfied--sexually, monetarily, or most any way.
Alexandria, Va.: What was Muddy Waters' financial situation during his life? John Lee Hooker actually did quite well, but Bo Diddley was not well-off. Is it true that Muddy Waters actually painted houses while he recorded for Chess? Robert Gordon: Muddy lived his first 30 years in debt to the plantation owners. His first week in Chicago, at a factory, he brought him almost fifty dollars--more than he made some YEARS on a plantation.
The musical hits, even if the accounting was messy, allowed him to get better paying gigs, so ultimately, in Chicago, he lived okay. He bought a big home in 1955 after Hoochie Coochie Man, and rented out the upstairs and the basement--mostly to his bandmates.
He didn't really live comfortably, truly comfortably, I don't think until around 1977, when he'd left Chess Records and signed to CBS. He got gigs opening arena shows for Eric Clapton and the like, and the living became much easier.
Alexandria, Va.: Chess Records released "Muddy Water's Greatest Hits" in 1956. Despite its title, is GH the first Muddy Waters LP? Were these songs first recorded as singles in the early fifties and then released all at once as an album? Robert Gordon: Technically, yes--it's the first released on LP format. It remains a great collection; I urge people to start with most any MW greatest hits.
His first LP recorded as an album was in 1958, Muddy Waters Sings Big Bill Broonzy. It's not my favorite.
Muddy was largely a singles artist; albums as a concept, as opposed to a collection of singles, didn't really start up til about the mid-1960s. Think Beatles.
Bob Levey: I adore my children, but I certainly don't adore their taste in music. When I'm feeling charitable, I refer to rap as "swill" and Disney theme songs as "oatmeal." How can I get my kids (and by extension, the entire younger generation) to appreciate the Mud-ster? I've tried, and failed abysmally..... Robert Gordon: Bob, have your tried putting Viagra in their cereal?
Well, really, I think the music speaks for itself. Often, new listeners come to the blues when they hear the original version of a song they've heard someone else cover. How many Michael Bolton fans discovered a great catalog when they stumbled onto Otis Redding singing "Dock of the Bay"?
In Muddy's case, I'd say it wouldn't hurt to have JXL, the European DJ who just remixed Elvis's "Just A Little Conversation", take a stab at "Still A Fool" or "Got My Mojo Working."
Several Muddy albums are made to reach out. Try the later LP, "Hard Again," which has a pretty rocking sound. It's very accessible. Lots of people also like Muddy's "The London Sessions," though, in that series, I prefer Howlin' Wolf's.
Bob Levey: As you report so well in your book, Muddy Waters may have been a heck of a musician, but he was a truly rotten husband and father. He had at least six wives, some legal, some not, and at one time he impregnated a 13-year-old girl. I lost count of his children, illegitimate and otherwise. He drank constantly. One granddaughter says in the book that Muddy was "not very nice." How did you balance the musician against the man? Robert Gordon: That was one of the few good things about this book taking 5 years to put together. I was always a Muddy fan, had seen him play about 15 times, had many records. As I came to know him more, I found out what a bad guy he was around the house, and one draft of my book was really influenced by that. Over time, however, I realized it wasn't my place to preach, to be school m'armish, or pass judgement. I was the biographer, documenting the life. And the book reads better because of that. Over 5 years I was able to strike a balance.
Bob Levey: Big Bill Morganfield, Muddy's son, is trying to make it as a blues performer. He issued an album in 1999. What do you think of him? Robert Gordon: I had a great encounter with Big Bill, which I document in my book. What book? Oh, the biography of Muddy, called Can't Be Satisfied: The Life and Times of Muddy Waters. He burst into tears in mid-interview, and it was just as his career was starting--we've had a special bond ever since. I like his albums, and he's a great performer. I hope he makes it real big.
Washington, D.C.: Which modern blues singers do you listen to? Are there any new musical styles that you think have the potential to become the new blues -- thoughtful, emotional, powerful? Robert Gordon: I like a variety of stuff--blues and otherwise. To get a real sense of my taste, dig up the two companion CDs to my first book, "It Came From Memphis." Those have good blues on them, old and new, and other related styles.
I just got a new CeDell Davis CD yesterday that I really liked; he's a Mississippi hill country player, stricken with polio--plays guitar with a butter knife.
I like the N. Mississippi All Stars, Corey Harris, Alvin Youngblood Hart... I'm gonna offend people by forgetting them.
I think Keb Mo is doing something interesting, almost Bonnie Raitt-ish in a way. He's a real pop artist, great sense of craft, but he has a solid blues background, and I like the way that informs his songs. It's a way to grab new listeners and bring them to the blues.
Did I mention Jon Spencer? White Stripes? Mr. Airplane Man? Lorette Velvette? There's lots o' good stuff out there.
New York: Who is still making good blues today? Any women? Robert Gordon: Bonnie Raitt. Lorette Velvette is a Memphis guitarist and chanteuse; her American album on OkraTone Records is culled from her 3 European albums. It's called Rude Angel, I think. She's great--find that rekkid.
Deborah Coleman's a great player, Shemekia Copeland's a great singer--is her new release out yet? Dr. John produced it, should be great. There's that other young white girl who plays real hot, Bonnie Raitt like -- though I swear she looks like a jr. high cheerleader!
San Francisco, Calif.: Could you talk a little about how you write -- the process of it? Where do you write, with what, for how long at a stretch, etc. I'd love some advice for what works for people. Robert Gordon: I write all the time. That's the thing about writing--you can't just say you want to be a writer. Writer's write. I keep a pad and pen with me at all times, and am always taking notes. I phone my ofc answering machine with ideas, sentences, etc.
I keep an ofc outside my home (got two small girls. Cuties.) and when my writing is best, I'll look up and see that several hours have passed and that there's words all over the computer screen--must have been mine. That total immersion/absorption.
Trust your muse. Wing it. Try new stuff. Write.
Bob Levey: In a review of your book, The New York Times says that Muddy Waters' blues had "an elegrant grace" and "an Ellingtonian twinkle." Not to disagree with that august journal to the north, but that's USDA-certified balderdash. I say Muddy Waters was all about sex--hard-driving, lecherous, rhythmic, down-and-dirty sex. And you say???? Robert Gordon: Well, I don't want to create a rumble between the two papers--or do I? Let's do it in Baltimore--you get the crab cakes, I'll be there.
I think there is a grace to his slide playing, both visually and aurally (to coin a word). You hear him playing that stuff, and sometimes he works that slide sound to the nuance of a firefly's glow. It's really beautiful. usually, he doesn't stop there, cranking up the SEX right afterward (taking his musical cues from his bedroom technique, I imagine).
In terms of Ellington, I think they relate as band leaders--both encouraged their players to stretch out and enjoy solo careers.
Long Beach, Calif.: How does one give Muddy Waters royalty
on a song when most of his tunes were revamping of the tunes of others? Any solutions to this vexing problem? Robert Gordon: Oooh baby, you've hit upon a deep one here. I personally think it's subjective (the law doesn't agree). If you cop the song from Mud, you pay him. If you cop a line from Mud, you tell him thanks, like he said thanks to Memphis Minnie, or Arthur Crudup, etc. The flashpoint for this discussion is Robert Johnson, and it's something of a sticky mess. Listen, for example, to a CD called "The Roots of Robert Johnson" and you can hear what he borrowed and/or copped.
Bob Levey: You really plucked my strings when you described the concert that Muddy Waters gave at The University of Chicago in 1965. I was there! I had never heard him before. He wore his trademark porkpie hat and one of his horrible Hawaiian shirts. And he played six encores! I could have listened to 60. The guy really made it happen. Was he always so willing to put so much work and so much time into such a small gig? Robert Gordon: That's the story in the book, right, where the white guy asks him if he's ever heard of Robert Johnson and he replies, "My main man."
yes, I think he did put that much effort into all his shows. Well, there were lots of nightclub gigs where, earlier in his career, he was a shill for the club owner--holding court at a table, joining the band only for the last songs of each of the 5 or 6 sets. But by the 60s, he was back to form.
Whenever he played, he put all of himself in the music. I never left a show disappointed.
Bob Levey: Muddy Waters would never have been Muddy Waters if he had stayed in Mississippi. Like thousands of blacks during the 1940s, he saw Chicago as the promised land--and for him, that's what Chicago turned out to be. Is Chicago still the home of the blues, such as they are? Or do the blues now belong to the burbs and the other continents as well? Robert Gordon: Chicago Blues are just Mississippi Delta blues brought north and turned up. The Mississippi Delta is the home of the blues.
However, in the days when regionality has given way to nationality (thanks to TV, radio, and the internet), the blues live whenever they're played--played by someone black, white, blue or green, who can transport you from whatever you're doing to a place of relief and release. Blues is in the ear of the beholder.
Bob Levey: I'm fascinated by "the furnish"--your description of what a land baron in Mississippi gave his workers. It included equipment, a ramshackle house and a little money. Muddy Waters evidently never got over the security of "the furnish." He essentially got a "furnish" from the Chess family, too, didn't he? Robert Gordon: Absolutely. The "furnish" is essentially the theme of Muddy's life--the effect of being born, raised, and fully formed as a sharecropper in the Mississippi delta.
Earlier someone asked me about Muddy's finances in Chicago--and Muddy knew, even in his slow years, that Chess would take care of him. If he couldn't pay a bill, he could bring it to Chess. If he had a woman pursuing him with a paternity suit (as he often did--his attorney told me, "You know that song Muddy did, 'Tiger In Your Tank'? Well Muddy had a tiger in his tank.") Muddy knew he could bring the problem to Chess Records and they'd help him. In a way, I think he put Leonard and Phil Chess in the "bossman" role--it was how Muddy knew to operate--but they also assumed the role pretty well.
Bob Levey: Muddy Waters' career was swamped (and nearly killed) by rock and roll, as you describe in the book. But you don't mention what Muddy thought of rock. Loved it? Hated it? Tolerated it? Robert Gordon: There's an image in the book, James Cotton says it, of the two of them sitting outside the clubs in the latter 1950s, staying in the car, listening to what was going on inside. Muddy was trying to understand the new beat--which was essentially his beat, just played faster (the Rolling Stones proved that).
He tried to adapt a bit, but ultimately he was happiest playing his deep slow blues.
Listen to an obscure Muddy song called "My Dog Can't Bark," by the way, to hear the slide guitar sound Bob Dylan copped a few months later on "Highway 61 Revisited." I discuss those circumstance in my book, which happens to be called Can't Be Satisfied: The Life and Times of Muddy Waters and is available at bookstores everywhere.
Bob Levey: You're also quite an Elvis-ologist. Tell us about your new Elvis book. Heck, tell us about the OLD one... Robert Gordon: I've written 3 other books besides Can't Be Satisfied: The Life and Times of Muddy Waters. My latest Elvis book is called the Elvis Treasures, and it features artifacts and documents you actually take out of the pages; it's very cool. I also did an Elvis coffee table book, The King on the Road--both in association with EP's estate, Graceland.
My first book, with 2 companion CDs, is called It Came From Memphis and is recently back in print. It's quite a lot of fun.
Bob Levey: In the book, you report that Muddy Waters was very popular in Europe--at one time more popular there than he was here. Why? Robert Gordon: he kicked off the British Invasion with his visit to England in 1958. Those who embraced his electric sound bought guitars and formed bands, bringing the sound here a few years later. Those who didn't became, as one of my interviewees said, "mouldy figs."
Bob Levey: Blues, Muddy Waters style, is barely heard on commercial radio any more. Why? Wouldn't there be an audience for it? Or do program directors think of blues the way they think of jazz--as a form whose day has come and gone? Robert Gordon: Good music will live forever. Blues will find an audience; as Muddy says--as long as people feel pain.
Bob Levey: Many thanks to Robert Gordon, and congratulations again to him for a terrific book. Be sure to join us next Tuesday, Aug. 27, when our guest on "Levey Live" will be Val Ackerman, commissioner of the WNBA. that discussion will begin, as always, at noon Eastern time.
© Copyright 2002 The Washington Post Company |
