| Federal Diary Live
With Stephen Barr
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, Aug. 14, 2002; Noon EDT Confused about how to apply for a federal job? Looking for tips on how to get the attention of a federal personnel officer? Are you interested in working for the new Department of Homeland Security? Kathryn Kraemer Troutman, founder of the Resume Place, joined The Post's Stephen Barr, who writes the Federal Diary column, to discuss government job opportunities and the prospects for federal hiring as substantial numbers of federal employees retire over the next five to 10 years. Troutman is the author of a new book, "Ten Steps to a Federal Job: Navigating the Federal Job System," and has written two books on how to submit electronic and paper resumes that will be accepted by government agencies. The transcript follows. Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions. Stephen Barr: Thanks to all of you for taking time to join in this discussion today. Kathryn Troutman, an expert on how to write federal resumes and use automated systems when applying for government jobs, has appeared in this forum before, so welcome back Kathryn! To get this discussion rolling, please give us a summary of the key issues that every federal job applicant needs to know about or master. Again, thanks for taking time from your schedule to offer advice and insights. Kathryn Troutman:
Hello Federal Job Seekers,
Thanks for inviting me back, Steve. I'm ready to type and answer questions from resume writers and federal applicants. I'm happy to help people write better resumes and successfully get interviews and jobs in the government!
Here's my SUMMARY OF KEY ISSUES FOR FEDERAL JOB APPLICANTS
To KNOW and/or MASTER:
-A federal resume is not the same as a private industry resume.
-You do not have to use a FORM to apply for a federal job. -You do not have to use an SF-171 or OF-612. You can use a federal-style resume which includes the same information.
-The resume should be EASY TO READ!
-The resume should be a separate document from your KSAs
-The resume should reflect the duties and qualifications needed for the job so that the personnel list can see if you are qualified for the job
-You should read the announcement to see if you are qualified before you apply
-Be sure to read "who can apply". Is it an announcement for federal employees only? Or OPEN TO ANYONE?
-You should read the HOW TO APPLY directions carefully! =Follow the directions.
-Be prepared to apply for federal jobs in many different formats. Each agency has their own way of requesting resumes, answers to questions and KSAs.
-Look at my Web site: www.resume-place.com for my columns, books and insight I can offer as an expert federal resume writer, trainer and book author.
That's enough for now.
Newbie from New York: Hi, my fiance and I are relocating to the D.C. area from New York City. From the city of the merchants to the city of the princes. We could use some advice on how to apply for federal jobs. I have applied for three so far so I have somewhat of a working vocabulary for terms such as KSA's and "open to all persons." I make it a point to call the contact person and "confirm" the receipt of my application. I have also noticed a trend to use e-mail/Web forms to apply for certain agencies. What advice can you give to a 30-year-old techie who is entering this strange new world? Kathryn Troutman: TECHIE NEWBIE: Welcome to Washington and the world of government. There's a lot to learn about the job application process. The good news is that the government is hiring. The bad news is that it's really difficult to get the resume right, the KSAs competitive and apply correctly. But with some information from this on-line session and what you could learn from my books, you can be successful with your federal job application. The federal resume needs to contain "compliance details" such as your SSN, citizenship, military experience, street addresses for employers. And it should include some of the keywords from the announcement. Sounds like you can read the announcements very well. Instead of calling the person, why don't you use RETURN RECEIPT or FEDEX (Fedex is better) to send your packages. That way you can track. Getting anyone on the phone is difficult. Thanks for writing. Good luck with your search.
PS, please consider my Ten Steps to a Federal Job -- brand new, you would like the STEPS a lot.
Savannah, Ga.: How can someone without a degree use their "real world" experience in a resume? Many of the announcements I read say you can substitute experience for a degree - is it realistic to think they will? Kathryn Troutman: REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE VS. EDUCATION. Hi Savannah, yes, this is true. You can highlight your experience, skills, expertise and "core competencies" that will be needed in the agencies, instead of education. You can just write about your accomplishments and skills. Put the education section at the end. Impress the personnel staff with your experience and skills. Thanks and keep working on your resume.
New York, N.Y.: What advice do you have for recent liberal arts college graduates with little prior work experience? Are there training programs within the federal government jobs? Kathryn Troutman: RECENT GRADUATES WITH LITTLE WORK EXPERIENCE. Great Question. Yes, there are excellent Internship programs - that are even paid. You can find student internship information at www.usajobs.opm.gov. Look for Student Internships. You can even type in the word "Student" on the second screen (after first time screen) and student jobs will appear.
When you write your federal resume you will have to describe your major papers and projects. Include a list of relevant courses. Write about any community service work that could be relevant. Include a list of skills that you can offer. The sample "Gary Blankenburg" which is in my Federal Resume Guidebook is a favorite for students. This sample includes all of the features (and work experience). Good luck with your federal job search.
Chantilly, Va.: I'm a recent casualty of WorldCom and have applied for several federal jobs. In most cases I've sent my resume on-line but have not heard any responses (after 2-3 weeks). Two weeks ago I sent an overnight package to DOT-TSA for a Lead Analyst position. What is the usual turn-around time for responses? Kathryn Troutman: TURNAROUND TIME - WORLDCOM CASUALTY. Hi Chantilly, I'm sorry about the Worldcom situation. We're helping lots of Worldcom people from Texas apply for federal jobs now. 2-3 weeks is not long in the government application world. And the TSA turnaround is kind of long too. But you can follow-up on the TSA announcement by attempting to call the person on the announcement to track the package. You can always try to call the person listed on the announcement. You can send packages where you can track. Or you could even send a return receipt card that is stamped, and ask them to send it back to you. It's tough to track applications in government, especially if it is on-line. Good luck with your applications. Keep applying!
Bowie, Md.: What does "Open to all sources" mean? Does it mean any U.S. citizen? Kathryn Troutman: OPEN TO ALL SOURCES. Yes, that means any U.S. Citizen.
People inside of government and outside of government.
Arlington, Va.: I have noted a number of vacancy announcements have a very short open date and extraordinary narrow KSAs. Are these "wired"? If so, please provide tips on how to find legitimate competitive positions? Kathryn Troutman: SHORT OPEN DATE / NARROW KSAs. It's hard to say if the job is wired. But if you are qualified, you should apply anyway. But with a short closing date, you may not have time. Keep reading announcements with more broad KSAs for which you are clearly qualified. Keep your KSAs and use them again and again after you tweak them for the particular KSA, agency mission and skills. Just keep reading announcements, you will see a huge difference in all of them. Thanks, keep at it, Kathryn
Washington, D.C.: I am interested in a Baggage Screener position with the new TSA. I have submitted my resume for all three DC Metro airports and have not yet been contacted by anyone letting me know the status. I keep hearing that Homeland Security is such a high priority, yet the process seems stuck in the mud. Any idea what is going on at TSA or any tips on how I can get through? Thanks! Kathryn Troutman: BAGGAGE SCREENER APPLICATION - SLOW RESPONSE. Hi! I think you should send the package in again. This time use a large envelope. Enlarge the type on your resume so that it's easy to read. I hope you fill out the questionnaire online. Yes, Homeland Security is a high priority, but they have received thousands of resumes and are kind of behind. If your packages are on the bottom of the stack, they could be lost. Send them again.
Jacksonville, Fla.: I have created a resume using the Resume Builder on the USAJOBS Web site. I don't have my degree but have accumulated a bunch of hours at different colleges while serving in the military. Should I list each college and the hours from each? Kathryn Troutman: RESUME BUILDER AND LOTS OF COLLEGES -- You should summarize your courses, number of hours, major fields. The various colleges are not as important.
Example:
"Completed 85 credit hours in Business Administration, communications and Marketing from 1995 to present. Currently hold a 3.5 GPA from all courses. Attended 5 universities and colleges with distance learning and in-class courses. Full list available upon request."
I hope that the Resume Builder can handle a description like this. If it can't, you should move out and write your resume in WORD and not be stuck with a rigid format from a Resume Builder. Thanks.
Dumfries, Va.: I'm a retiring military officer based at Ft Belvoir, Virginia. I'm interested in a position with the Transportation Security Administration, or with whatever emerges for the creation of the Homeland Security Department. How does a new person crack the civilian personnel system? How does one know if submitted resumes are being considered, are non-competitive, etc? Kathryn Troutman: TRACKING AND FOLLOWING-UP ON YOUR APPLICATION. This is Step 9 of my Ten Steps to a Federal Job book - coming out in one week. I had a great time writing this chapter and I had help from my email Career Corner readers. They told me how they email, fax and call the personnel lists to track their applications. You can call, email and/or fax to ask about your package. You can also ask why you were not considered and what you can do to improve your package. If you can get somebody on the phone. It's hard, but possible.
It's hard to know if your resume is being considered if you don't hear from anyone. If you don't hear anything in one month, you should call them. The TSA is hiring, so they are trying to find qualified candidates. I hope that your resume makes your KSAs and Qualifications extremely clear. I hope your resume is in very readable type and it's not crowded. They have a lot of resumes to read. I am recommending 12 point type at the very minimum.
Thanks for writing.
Arlington, Va.: TSA Hiring problems!!! How does a candidate complain about the hiring process at TSA? How do you learn where you stand? Kathryn Troutman: TSA HIRING PROBLEMS! You should write to your congressman. You could also write to Brian Friel with www.govexec.com. He's working on an article about the TSA hiring practices.
bfriel@govexec.com
You should also read www.govexec.com about Homeland Security issues. It's really a great source.
TSA is behind with hiring. They are inundated. All I can say is send your package again. Send it flat. Make the type big. Make the KSAs really clear in the resume. Make your package stand out with a cover letter that sounds compelling. Good luck, Kathryn
Oh, also read my column on my website: www.resume-place.com "HOMELAND SECURITY RESUMES" Great tips there on KSAs, qualifications and core competencies needed for homeland security jobs.
Nicholasville, Ky.: I am currently working for the Department of Defense, and I am most displeased with my job. I am currently trying to get hired with the Transportation Security Administration. I am not sure how to express my experiences for the KSAs. For TSA, I was wondering if there is a certain wording style that I should use in the KSAs. PLEASE HELP, I AM SO FRUSTRATED! Kathryn Troutman: TSA KSAs. Just make the KSAs stand out. From the announcements they say that the "rate and rank" based on your KSAs. If the personnelist reviewing your resume CAN'T FIND THE KSAs, then you're not going to look too good. Put the KSAs on page one of your resume so that are very clear and easy to read. The wording should integrate some of the wording from the announcement. Read my column on my Web site: HOMELAND SECURITY RESUMES. My business, Resume Place, also provides critiquing, editing and writing services for TSA and other federal applicants. That's just for your information. Thanks and good luck. Keep trying.
Alexandria, Va.: I am currently in the Government and have been applying using Resumix. The Army has a site called ROAR, after you apply you can go out to the site and check the status of your application. I did that, but found no information. When I tried to call, there was no phone number on the announcement. No way to email anyone. You are basically left with no means to find out your status. Have you or anyone run across a solution to let agencies know that they have problems like this? Kathryn Troutman: ARMY ROAR - RESUMIX SYSTEM. Well, my experience with ROAR has been good. It has worked for me in the past and it's a really great system. I know that Army is working on consolidating all of their regions' resume databases into one database. I'll be that ROAR is down temporarily because of this restructure. If you have a CPAC office at your base, you could actually call somebody at the CPAC and they can check with the ROAR administrators and tell you what's going on with it. The system is really a good one. It will come back. Kathryn
Elkridge, Md.: Applying for a federal job is so time-consuming. I want to work for the federal government very, very much. But I find myself applying for private employment jobs because it is easier. Are there some software applications that can help speed up the federal job-hunting process? Kathryn Troutman: TIME-CONSUMING FEDERAL APPLICATION PROCESS. Yes, it's like a part-time job. But if you get emails sent to you with job announcements, you can be reading them each evening. You can sign up for emails from www.usajobs.opm.gov. Also another good Web site is www.federaljobsearch.com. This is a paid site but great for searching geographically for jobs. Also if you have a good federal resume and a set of KSAs, you can apply for most jobs in an hour or two. It's a long process, I certainly agree. My Ten Steps could help you understand the process better - from my new book. Thanks, good luck.
Bushwood, Md.: You advised the baggage screener applicant to resend the application package in case it was stuck at the bottom of the pile. With this in mind, would sending in multiple applications for the same position increase my chances of being selected, or would it just confuse the issue? The strategy here is based on the assumption that more than one personnelist is reviewing the applications for the listed position. Kathryn Troutman: MULTIPLE APPLICATIONS - Well, I certainly don't usually recommend sending multiple applications. But I have heard that the TSA contractor is behind with reviewing applications. I think that if it were me, I would send another package and mark the front of the envelope with this note:
"2nd package submitted - PLEASE CONSIDER MY APPLICATION
1st package sent 07/15/02"
I don't want to cause extra work for the TSA reviewers, but sometimes packages do get lost. If the package was sent 4 weeks ago and you can't get a response from anyone, what else can you do? You want to work for the TSA, right?
Keep at it.
Denver, Colo.: The TSA hiring system is somewhat of a joke. First please note that if you would like to Fax a resume to them, there is only one Fax number to use for all the jobs they have posted. Think about several thousand people trying to Fax their resume to one number. They list a customer service number to call, however if you are applying for anything but a screener, they are clueless. I have been inquiring on when to submit KSA's and even though they claim to be Federal employees, they have no idea what a KSA is. They will give you another number to call which will produce several things. It will ring numerous times with no answer. You will receive a recorded message that says state your question and they will answer in 24 hours. The first time I tried this it took over a week to hear from them and the answer to my question was "If you are still having a problem please call us". They had a job fair in Denver and they were completely overcome by the number of people that showed up. Kathryn Troutman: TSA HIRING SYSTEM - A JOKE. Yes, it's not great. Here's my responses. ++Don't fax. Don't even try. Faxes look bad and they're not readable. ++Customer service phone. I've tried to call also. I've never gotten an answer. The people who answer the phones are contractors who don't know about KSAs unfortunately. ++ Don't try to call them. Yes, it is overwhelming.
What to do: Read my article Homeland Security Resumes about blending the KSAs into the resume. Make the KSAs stand out because that's how they are supposedly "rating and ranking" applications. Make the type big. 12 to 14 point type. Make something stand out on you resume. Relevant education, experience, projects. STAND OUT. STAND OUT. STAND OUT. THEY ARE OVERWHELMED. If you are good, make sure somebody can see it on the front page! Persevere! They are hiring. Good luck.
Takoma Park, Md.: Hi Kathryn -- I am exactly the kind of "outside talent" the federal government supposedly wants to recruit, but the "hiring" process is a sham. I applied for two recent GS-14/15 communications/spokesman openings at agencies (GSA, Defense) where I have contacts, yet in both cases the job was "filled" a few days after the closing date. A friend of mine who is a senior OPM official tells me that federal workers are "circling the wagons" to protect their promotion opportunities, making it harder than ever, not easier, for outsiders to be hired. True? Kathryn Troutman: FEDERAL HIRING IS A SHAM, even for OUTSIDE TALENT. That's really too bad. The government really does want outside talent and really needs you too! Well, the current feds can circle the wagons all they want, but their numbers are becoming fewer. You should be patient and keep applying. You should make sure your federal resume stands out and just keep applying. Make sure your KSAs are written with accomplishments and are very interesting and impressive (keep the personnelists on the edge of their seat reading your materials). I recommend that you keep at it just because it's hard. You truly can break this code. Make sure the resume is superb. One of my books could help if you want to see what a beautiful federal resume looks like. Thanks.
Alexandria, Va.: Sorry to have to ask this, but what are KSAs? Kathryn Troutman: KNOWLEDGE, SKILLS AND ABILITIES -- KSAs. Many of the federal vacancy announcements ask for KSAs to be written on separate sheets of paper -- in addition to sending a resume. A typical KSA narrative statement could be this: "Ability to communicate orally" or "Ability to Communicate in writing" or "Ability to plan and coordinate" or "Knowledge of a certain software package".
The applicant needs to write 1/2 page or so about their specific experience that supports this knowledge, skill or ability. The KSAs are rated and ranked with grades. They are very important. But not all announcements ask for the KSAs to be written. And sometimes, the KSAs should be covered within the text of the resume (as in the TSA announcement instructions).
Thanks for asking. Great question. Kathryn
Falls Church, Va.: Re: applying for fed job too time consuming -- several agencies are now posting vacancy announcements on-line, where applicants can actually apply for the position on-line. I just applied for a position with U.S. Mint via their online application and it took less than 20 minutes. Great experience, as far as applying for a fed job. Kathryn Troutman: U.S. MINT - GREAT ON-LINE RESUME EXPERIENCE. Yes, isn't it great to copy and paste a resume into a resume builder? The US Mint is a really interesting place to work. Many agencies will allow you to post a resume on-line. This resume should be an ELECTRONIC format. This resume should include no bold type, no indentations, no bullets or underlines. It should be a text resume that is ragged right, flush left. But the paragraph lengths should not exceed 10 lines to allow for readability by the personnelist. Thanks for the positive note one one hiring process.
Washington, D.C.: Does the TSA vendor have any experience in federal hiring? I am frustrated with applying to TSA. Kathryn Troutman: TSA VENDOR - I think that they do have experience with federal hiring. I can't say exactly who the vendors are. Maybe you could find out by reading www.govexec.com and reading a column on the TSA Hiring Contract. I know that the demand of hiring so many people is difficult. I know the job announcements on monster.com look pretty good and I'm glad to see they are announcing the jobs in a place other than just www.usajobs.opm.gov. That's the good news. What happens after the resumes come to their office, I don't know. I wish that the process were totally on-line. That people could copy and paste their resume into a resume builder so that there was NO PAPER AT ALL. But maybe it's too late to change the system. Reading resumes and looking for KSAs to rate and rank is extremely difficult process when thousands are received everyday. I'm really glad I don't work for that contractor. Really.
Washington, D.C.: Just some information, a person just wrote in a question about ROAR. I am currently using that system as well. The system will not show anything unless they did the self nomination (which step usually people forget) also the ranking will not be posted until at least 7 days after the job is closed. Kathryn Troutman: ROAR AND SELF-NOMINATION. Thanks for the note. Yes, that's a good point. Just because you put your resume in the database does not mean you've really applied for anything. You have to also SELF-NOMINATE for a particular position. Then wait. Try the ROAR system again. It does work. Thanks for your update on this.
Bay City, Mich.: How do you know that a job has been filled with the TSA -- when it is no longer posted? Do they ever notify you when you apply whether you don't qualify, etc.? Kathryn Troutman: TSA JOBS - FILLED. Yes, when it is no longer posted. Or when the announcement that might still be posted says they are not hiring for particular airports. I don't think you will get a notice that you were not qualified, but I'm not positive about that. I wish they had a tracking system so that people could track their application. If the contractor had used an automated system for their applications, maybe this could have happened. AS it is now, it's pretty much a human situation and with so many applications, it's a sea of paper and envelopes.
Albuquerque, N.M.: I recently applied to a job with Minerals Management Service (they use some kind of online system), and I received a response in TWO DAYS, my application with TSA has been over four weeks with NO RESPONSE. Why isn't TSA using a system like THAT? Is there something we could do to have them change the process? Kathryn Troutman: ON-LINE APPLICATIONS ARE THE BEST. Yes, The on-line systems are great. The Minerals Management Service might be using QuickHire where you copy and paste your resume, then answer some questions online. I think that on-line for government -- especially with mass recruitments -- has to be mandatory. How can any group of people read thousands of resumes and "rate and rank" based on KSAs? Why don't you write your congressman and complain about the lack of responsiveness and information about your application. Agencies receive "congressionals" from their Congressmen all the time. These letters really do get responses. I mean it. IN fact, most agencies have one person in particular who write the "Congressionals". I'm not happy about this process either. My clients aren't getting feedback either and they really want and need these jobs. I see fabulous resumes from amazingly qualified people going to TSA. What's happening to them? Philadelphia, Pa.: Hi Kathryn, I found you from a Steve Barr Show appearance while searching the Web. We have e-mailed before. I will be moving to Germany to join my fiancιe who is a DOD employee who supports the Army Artillery. We cannot marry until his divorce is final. I plan to purchase your Electronic Federal Resume Guidebook to assist me in my application. I will not be an category "A" applicant [Military Spouse Preferred Status] until after we marry. Therefore, I must apply in either "M,N or O" Status, that is all U.S. Citizens [except ordinarily residents]. My question is: What does the term "ordinarily resident" mean in this context? I interpret it to mean a U.S. Citizen who is an ordinary resident of the area already. Therefore, is it better for me to apply before I move to Germany or to wait until I have preferred status? Once I apply, can my status be upgraded after we marry? Thanks Steve and Kathryn for bringing this important information to me! Kathryn Troutman: MOVING TO GERMANY. Well, congratulations on getting married and moving to Germany to work. Lucky you! You should apply now. Don't wait. The status will change. go for it. Read announcements, submit your resume into the Resumix database and/or send the resume and KSAs to agencies now. They need to know you are coming overseas. Write a cover letter explaining that you are coming. Introduce yourself. Sell your sells. You are on a marketing campaign. Do not wait.
Germantown, Md.: Current thinking in the commercial resume world is go no further back than 10 years and not to list graduation dates. This is a tactic to mask age. Same hold true in federal resume world?
Thanks. Kathryn Troutman: HOW FAR BACK SHOULD YOU GO? Federal resumes go back 10 years with compliance details. That means, you should add your company street addresses, supervisor names, salaries and dates for 10 years worth of jobs. Then before 1992, you can list the jobs if they are relevant. But you don't need all the details. You can list your job title and descriptions and even accomplishments in order to present your qualifications the best to government. Most people with 15-20 years do not stop their resume at 1992. They go further back but with less details. Thanks. Great question.
Wilmington, N.C.: I've noticed that each agency has a different system to apply (i.e. NASA has Stars, RESUMIX, COOL). Why can't we apply in one place and find out where our applications stand? Kathryn Troutman: MULTIPLE APPLICATION SYSTEMS - Yes, they are all different. You will get used to it. Just read the directions and keep applying. You need a paper resume and an electronic resume. There isn't just one place to send your resume. Sorry. Wouldn't that be just great?
Jacksonville, Fla.: You said not to FAX in resumes. Most of the vacancy announcements I have looked at specifically state that Faxing is the best method due to the delays in processing federal mail (additional screening). I know they are not as legible, but should we do the opposite of what is specifically recommended in the vacancy announcement? I have a feeling the reviewers probably feel safer looking at faxes. Kathryn Troutman: FAX DISCUSSION. Well, personally I don't like faxes because they are so ugly. But in Washington, DC since the postal service is a problem (anthrax stuff), fax is okay. But I think that paper -- Fedex (with a tracking number) or UPS is better. Use nice thick paper, ivory or gray. Honestly, you have to stand out -- any way you can. Paper, large type, clear black ink. The reviewers are tired and their eyes are hurting because most people's resumes type are so small. I know this because I see them all day long critiquing, writing, etc. I don't recommend fax. Baltimore, Md.: Nothing against you, Ms. Troutman, but it seems kind of pathetic that someone has had to write three books on how to submit a resume or an application for a government job. Simply said -- why is the process so difficult? Kathryn Troutman: THREE BOOKS. I agree. My new book Ten Steps to a Federal Job is 280 pages. Why does it take so many words. I don't know the answer. I honestly wish it was just a cover letter and resume and a stamp. But it's not. And the government is hiring, so we have to play their job application game the best that we can right now. The samples in my books and insight are really helpful. I mean it. So, keep at it.
Dallas, Tex.: Hi Kathryn, I too am a WorldCom casualty, and like many others, struggle with submitting KSA's with our resumes for Federal jobs. If I applied for a job with no or few KSA's, and have since updated them, can I re-apply and expect that the application will again be reviewed, and a new score will be given? Kathryn Troutman: WORLDCOM, KSAs AND FEDERAL JOBS? Hello, you should keep applying for jobs. Work on your KSAs so that they describe examples. Some announcements ask for KSAs, others do not. Some want the KSAs in the resume. It's all different as I have said. No you probably cannot re-apply for an announcement that is CLOSED. The TSA announcements I have written about have longer lasting closing dates.
THANKS EVERYONE FOR WRITING TO ME TODAY AND ASKING YOUR REALLY GREAT QUESTIONS. Good luck to all of your TSA applicants, former Worldcom and IT professionals, those of you who are trying to break into government. My best advice is to keep trying to apply, do not give up. Consider it a challenge to get it. It will be a major life challenge for you. The process is difficult, but the jobs are truly there. I know that because I am inside of those agencies all the time and I see the employees and hear about their work. Please check out my Web site and sign up for my email CAREER CORNER newsletter. I write about all kinds of inspiring federal job search tips. And consider my Web site/books: at www.resume-place.com. Thanks again. Good luck with your search. Kathryn Troutman in Baltimore, Md.
President, The Resume Place, Inc. www.resume-place.com
Stephen Barr: Kathryn, thanks for fielding all these questions. We had so many today and just not enough time to get to them all. My thanks to all of you who have spent time with this transcript.
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