| 'The Punch'
With John Feinstein
Author, journalist
Friday, Nov. 22, 2002; 2 p.m. ET On Dec. 9, 1977, a fight broke out between the Houston Rockets and the Los Angeles Lakers. All-Star Rudy Tomjanovich raced to break it up, running straight into Kermit Washington, a good player with a great reputation, and one of the most ferocious punches ever seen in sports. The punch dislodged Tomjanovich's skull, causing spinal fluid to leak from his brain. He was never the same player again, but he has gone on be a successful coach, winning championships with both the Rockets and the U.S. Olympic team. In the years since the punch, Washington has struggled to find another steady job in basketball. In his new book, "The Punch: One Night, Two Lives, and the Fight That Changed Basketball Forever (Little, Brown and Company), journalist John Feinstein describes a notorious moment in NBA history that not only changed the course of professional basketball, but also illumined issues of race, conspiracy, and violence that reverberate to this day. Feinstein was online Friday, Nov. 22 to talk about the book, the incident and its effect on the sport of basketball. Feinstein graduated from Duke University in 1977. He worked at The Washington Post for 11 years as both a political and sports reporter, and has also worked at Sports Illustrated and at the National Sports Daily. He is the author of a number of bestselling sports books, including "A Season on the Brink," "A Good Walk Spoiled," "A Civil War" and "The Last Amateurs." Feinstein is currently a commentator for National Public Radio and Sporting News Radio, writes columns for AOL and Golf Magazine, and contributes to The Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal. He lives in Maryland with his wife, Mary, and their son and daughter. The transcript follows. Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
washingtonpost.com: Good afternoon, John, and welcome. Tell us a bit about both players in "The Punch." How did the incident change the way they viewed the game? John Feinstein: Rudy Tomjanovich was a five-time All Star who was probably on his way to scoring 20,000 points in his career before this career. Kermit Washington was a solid, improving role player for the Lakers. According to players and coaches, neither player was ever the same after the incident. Rudy had to retire by the time he was 31, because he was never the same player even though he went back to play very well. Kermit bounced from Los Angeles to Boston to San Diego to Portland and had a solid and good career, but was then and still is now associated with this one moment.
Somewhere, USA: Why write this book now, John? What were your reasons? John Feinstein: I'd heard Kermit on a radio interview almost two years ago, and he talked about how this incident had haunted him for 23 years. I knew a little bit about him because he's a D.C. guy, and people I worked with at The Post when I first worked at the newspaper always talked about what a good guy he was. I wondered if the event also haunted Rudy, and thought if I could get both of them to cooperate and tell their stories, there was a fascinating book to be written. I didn't know at the time how vivid and emotional the memories of the other people who were there that night would be. And that's an important part of the book.
Clarksburg, Md.: I remember the incident, and obviously RT was running into a fight. It seemed to me at the time that KW could very reasonably believed that RT was coming to join the fight and take on KW. How much blame should be leveled at KW, when he believed he was defending himself? John Feinstein: You're right that Kermit did not know Rudy's intentions, and that's why he turned and swung the way he did. What Kermit has to be blamed for is that if you look at the tape, he turned and has time to see that Rudy's arms are down, and he still followed through with this devastating punch. Never intending to hurt Rudy the way he did. Of course, he was pumped up on adrenalin at the time, and that's why he reacted the way he did.
Waterloo, Belgium (formerly in Silver Spring, Md.): Was A-Rod's gold glove to "apologize" for not giving him the AL MVP award? If the SS award didn't got to Omar Vizquel, one would have (and this one did) that Mike Bordick of the Orioles would have one. Just curious. Judy Furukawa John Feinstein: No. Separate voters. And he deserved to be the gold-glover.
Harrisburg, Pa.: You have written a book about violence between two athletes. Do you have any thoughts on the seeming increase in violence between fans and athletes? Is this something that has risen sharply recently, and if so, what do you think is causing it? John Feinstein: I think fans should stay off the field and off the court at the end of games. I think television has encouraged them to do this by focusing on them. I think there should be an edict not to focus on fans doing this at the time, and I think there should be an announcement saying that anyone going on the field or on the court for being arrested.
Houston, Tex.: The "incident" is rarely, if ever, spoken of in the Houston media, despite its far-reaching impact on the NBA. What made you decide to delve into the topic, and was it difficult getting the Rockets organization and Rudy T. to open up about it? John Feinstein: Well the main challenge when I decided I wanted to do this book was getting Rudy to talk about it, because he had not spoken about it in the past in any detail. And I knew it was sort of an unwritten rule, not only in Houston but in the NBA media not to ask Rudy about this. I sat down with him in person and told him this could be cathartic with him, and I think I was fortunate that having gone through alcohol rehab five years ago and now being an active member of AA, he's at a place in his life where he felt comfortable talking about everything. I guess I was at the right place at the right.
Fairlington, Va.: I enjoy your segments on NPR every week and thoroughly enjoyed "The Punch." "The Punch" is seemingly the most comprehensive analysis of that fateful night and its aftermath, and I'm sure Rudy, Kermit and you hope that it has been an era-ending catharsis, but is there really any optimism that it has been put to rest? Don't they and you fear that your exceptional investigative work has only torn the scab off a long-healing wound? John Feinstein: The good news is that as a result of the book, Rudy and Kermit are talking to one another. And if the book does nothing else, I'm thrilled about that. They each read the book, which I sent them in advance, and they both called me and said almost the same thing: "Gee, I never knew all that about him." Rudy invited a player that Kermit had been working with to the Rockets training camp as a gesture to people to say I have forgiven Kermit Washington, you can too. My goal is for the three of us to have dinner some night.
Washington, D.C.: This incident -- an accident, yes? No one intended such serious consequences. Why did Washington have to struggle so much as a result? John Feinstein: You can't call it an accident. It was an intended punch. But the damage certainly wasn't intended. We see fights in sports all the time that don't have disastrous results like this. I think Kermit has suffered because this event has become such a defining event in sports. Whenever there's a fight in basketball or in sports, boom, out comes this tape. I think when you're held up as the ultimate example of what can go wrong in a fight, it's very very hard for people to get past this idea that this is who you are, even though this is not who Kermit Washington is.
Washington, D.C.: Michigan men's basketball: I get the forfeits, and the banners coming down, and the money going back. That all makes sense because we didn't legitimately win the games, or earn the titles or money. But to deprive this year's INNOCENT AND UNTAINTED squad from post-season competition? Is this a preemptive move to avoid the embarrassment of NCAA action? Or is there a taint on the current team that I am missing? Confused Ex-Wolverine P.S. GO BLUE, BEAT OSU! John Feinstein: It is a preemptive move, in the hope that the NCAA will not come down on them harder. They want to take themselves out of post-season play this year (a) because they are not likely to make post-season play, and (b) so that it doesn't affect recruiting for next year and beyond. Beyond that, while Tommy Amaker is a close friend and I understand what you're saying about these kids being innocent, Tommy knew the investigation was underway when he took the job, and had provisions for possible probation put into his contract, and the players also knew about the investigation. Remember this: no one involved in big-time basketball is innocent. The one thing that should happen, though, is that Steve Fisher, who is now at San Diego State, should be punished.
Fairlington, Va. (follow-up): After your dinner with Rudy and Kermit, how about a sequel: "The Dinner -- One Night, Three Entrees and the Dinner that Changed Violence in Sports Forever." John Feinstein: Love it. But there'll be four entrees -- I'm always hungry.
Arlington, Va.: What surprised you about both Tomjanovich and Washington? What didn't you know -- or didn't anyone know -- about them before you began this project? John Feinstein: I certainly didn't know what Rudy had gone through since the punch, and as I said he never talked about it. He never talked about his recurring dream that he died for 20 years. He never talked about worrying about how no matter how much he accomplished, he'd never escape the specter of being the guy who got punched. He never talked about his alcoholism. He was actually funny talking about rehab, because he said they were going to teach him how to stop after two or three things. I didn't know any of those things. I also didn't know, as I said before, how intense were the memories of the other people involved that night, and how it affects them to this day. And I didn't know how much the NBA's rules on fighting have been changed as a result of this incident. I also didn't know how difficult Kermit's upbringing was, here in Washington. Finally, I didn't realize how close Rudy came to dying that night -- that if he had not received excellent medical care, right from the beginning, that he might not have survived.
Herndon, Va.: Mr. F: I miss your absence from Kornheiser's show, and suffer along with you most Saturdays as Navy sinks. Do you think violence of fans toward players is becoming more of a threat than players toward each other? John Feinstein: Thanks for the kind words about Tony and Navy. I can honestly say the only thing I miss about ESPN is doing Tony's show. I think that fights are always going to be a part of sports, because emotions can get out of control during a physical competition. That's going to happen. There's absolutely no excuse for fans to be anywhere near players -- before, during or after games. That's fixable, if the people in charge want to fix it.
Washington, D.C.: Is violence more acceptable in some sports than in others -- for instance, hockey? Or do you think hockey, too, would be better off without the fights? John Feinstein: I think hockey would be better off without the fights, but the people who run the sport don't. They wink at fighting, act as if they want to stop it but don't really take action to stop it. I give the NBA credit for realizing after this incident that something had to be done. There were 41 ejections for fighting in the NBA in 1977. Last year there were 8. So they have made progress. All those rules came out of that night, because as David Stern said, they couldn't allow men who were this big and this strong to square off and throw punches at each other; this is what it could lead to.
Rockville, Md.: I really enjoy your breadth of knowledge and your Navy Football radio work. And I agree, playing Notre Dame every year is bad for the Middie program. My question is Maryland basketball, my true passion. ESPN is covering Maryland hoops this year for a few minute segment every Tuesday Night. Behind the scenes, on the practice floor, in the offices, in the huddle, etc. This first week Gary Williams was initially shown berating his players. I am sure as the season progresses Gary will be depicted in a good light. At least I hope so. What do you think of this kind of access given to ESPN? Good for Maryland hoops or bad? I know you received the same kind of access for your book, but this is quite different. John Feinstein: I would only give me that kind of access. I think there is a tendency among people in sports to think that you must always say yes to television, that you "need the exposure." I don't think Maryland needs any more exposure at this point. They're the national champions. If I were Gary I would have told the folks from Bristol to take a hike. But he didn't call me to consult.
Arlington, Va.: John, I am currently reading you book "The Majors: In Pursuit of Golf's Holy Grail," and am really enjoying it. With that said, it's my personal belief that Augusta National is a private club and therefore has the right to choose their members, what's your stance on the attacks that Martha Burke is leading in her fight to get women members into Augusta? And what do you think Finchem will do? Thanks John Feinstein: First of all, a plague on both their houses. Of course Augusta has the right to choose its own members; that doesn't mean it is right to have only men. Having said that, I think there are issues in sports -- like athletes beating up their wives and girlfriends -- that include women, that Martha Burke should be focused on, rather than getting some rich woman into Augusta. I am personally sick and tired of the whole issue. Having said that, the New York Times editorial saying that Tiger Woods should lead the boycott was among one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Kim Finchem, however, could take action by urging everyone on the tour not to play there, if he chose to do so. Clearly, he prefers to hide behind the notion that the tour doesn't sanction the Master's, which is a lot of hooey. The prize money there is official PGA money, and the winner there gets a five-year exemption to play on the tour. By me, that makes it sanctioned.
Arlington, Va.: There has been a link between sports and domestic violence. Do you think sports fans take a cue from their athlete heroes and the behavior somehow becomes a natural reaction? John Feinstein: I'm no psychiatrist, but I think there's something to that. I think regardless of what that idiot Charles Barkley says, athletes are role models. Perhaps they shouldn't be, but they are. And when they misbehave, that sends a signal -- particularly to youngsters who watch them on the field or on the court -- that this is the way to do things.
Washington, D.C.: They based a whole episode of the "White Shadow" on the same thing happening in a high school game! John Feinstein: I remember watching "The White Shadow." It was a good shadow. Obviously, they were trying to make a point that this could happen at any level of basketball. It's almost amazing that it hasn't occurred more often. Thankfully.
Herndon, Va.: Mr. F: How's the swimming going? I can beat you at 50 yards (with a head start). John Feinstein: Right now, almost anybody could beat me. The worst part of book tours is that I don't get to work out as much. But I have won as many national championships as Mike Krzyzewski. Only on relays, though.
San Bruno, Calif.: Why didn't Rudy's teammate Calvin Murphy retaliate against Kermit Washington? I hear he was quite a fighter (and also a championship baton twirler!). John Feinstein: Good question. Calvin says to this day that his first instinct was to "kill the son of a bitch." He was a Golden Gloves boxer in high school, and even at 5'10", was considered the toughest guy in the NBA. He said that seeing Rudy and all the blood made his legs go rubbery. And said to this day he thinks it was an act of God that kept him from going after Kermit. I think the best way to describe it is that they were all in a state of shock. John Lucas said he just wanted to run and get out of the building. They were all afraid Rudy was dead. There was that much blood.
Millbraie, Calif.: Did basketball players at the time take drugs such as steroids that contributed to the level of violence? Other than this fight, what were some other classic NBA fights? John Feinstein: Kermit was certainly not a steroid user. never took any kind of drugs. Didn't smoke, didn't drink. I know steroids were not nearly as prevalent in sports then as they are now. A lot of players in the NBA did use drugs back then; that was a problem. The year before, there was a fight in the NBA finals between Darryl Dawkins and Maurice Lucas that almost turned into a riot in Philadelphia. There is also a tape of Calvin Murphy jumping in the air and grabbing Sidney Wicks by the afro and pulling him down, and punching him into submission, even though Wicks was almost a foot taller than he was. There was also another fight in 1965 when Willis Reed took out three Los Angeles Lakers, but none were seriously hurt.
Houston, Tex.: Re: Augusta and Women. The conspicuously silent voice (to me, anyway) in this whole controversy is the LPGA and LPGA players. Why is that? I'd like to hear what Nancy Lopez, et al., think. John Feinstein: Ty Votaw, the commissioner of the LPGA the other day came out very strongly in favor of opening Augusta to women. I think they'd like to play there. Nancy Lopez has been mentioned as a possible first member. She lives right near there.
Arlington, Va.: I remember a comment (was it yours?) in response to the New York Times editorial on Tiger, that asking Tiger to oppose Augusta's policy in his role as the premier golfer is far less objectionable than asking him to object because of his ancestral ties to another oppressed minority. Assuming I a remembering that right, was that your comment? If not, do you agree? John Feinstein: I'm not nearly that articulate. It was probably Wilbon. I don't think under any circumstance Tiger should be singled out, because he's a minority or because he's the best player. No one ever asked Jack Nicklaus or Arnold Palmer to boycott the Masters when Augusta excluded blacks and Jews.
Fayetteville, Ark.: How do you feel about the exemption sports figures (and coaches) have for acting uncivilly or even criminally intra-game. The actions of school coaches are not accepted of teachers; and throwing one punch in a bar would have you arrested but not so if you are engaged in sports. John Feinstein: Complicated question. There's no doubt that violent acts that take place in almost all sports would lead to arrest if they were not on the playing field. I think that you draw the line when someone hits someone with a stick over the head. I think that today, if Kermit and Rudy happened, some PR-crazed prosecutor would have pursued charges against Kermit, even though as despicable as it was, it happened in the context of the game. As for coaches, if any of them ever lays a violent hand on a kid, all of them should go to jail. Even my friend Bob Knight.
Clifton, Va.: Did you interview both Washington and Tomjanovich for the book? Do they have any more perspective on the incident now? John Feinstein: Obviously, I spent hours and hours with both of them over a period of several months. Rudy told me at the end when we finished our last interview that he found it cathartic to talk about this and everything he had gone through, particularly his alcoholism. And I think, hope, that in reading the book and reading what John Lucas said about the need to say "I'm sorry, period," as opposed to "I'm sorry, but...," Kermit came to a different level of understanding.
washingtonpost.com: That wraps up today's show. Thanks to everyone who joined the discussion.
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