Siege at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem
With Father Raed Abu-Sahlia
Chancellor of the Catholic Church in Jerusalem
Tuesday, April 16, 2002; 3 p.m. EDT

Approximately 190 Palestinians holed up inside Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, along with three dozen clergy members, are becoming weak from a lack of nutrition, two of their leaders said in interviews on their cell phones Monday. Israeli tanks and snipers have surrounded the 4th-century church -- one of Christianity's holiest sites -- since April 2, when the Palestinians barricaded themselves inside to avoid arrest during Israel's invasion of several cities and towns in the West Bank. No End to Bethlehem Standoff (Post, April 15)

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia, chancellor of the Catholic Church in Jerusalem, will be online Tuesday, April 16 at 3 p.m. EDT, to discuss the situation at the Church of the Nativity and the Catholic church's stance of events unfolding in Israel and the West Bank.

Submit your questions and comments now or during the discussion.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

Alexandria, Va.: I just attended a major rally for Israel here in Washington, DC.

Sister Rosemary Reuther of Seton Hall University expressed her sense of solidarity with Israel in a way which I found very moving.

Are Catholic clergy allowed to take whatever position they wish to on the Middle East? Assuming that you disagree in some respects with Sister Reuther, do either of you represent the Catholic Church as a whole?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: Yes I am a catholic priest, Arab and Palestinian at the same time.
Concerning your question: we are not involved in the political side of the conflict but we just suffer from it as all our population in the Holy Land,,, therefore, our position is very clear: the church can not be silent in front of injustice.. we are calling very hard to the political leaders to chose the war of peace for all.. and we try our best to show them that way since many of them are blind and deaf and don't know anything other than war.

Arlington, Va.: Nonviolent protest worked for the U.S. civil rights movement and for Indian independence. Do you think that non-violent protest and can ever take primacy in Palestinian society to the point where violence against Israel is socially unacceptable?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: Thank you for your question.. I have always called for nonviolence as a strategy of resistance in order to achieve freedom, peace, justice and reconciliation.
I have already wrote many article in this field in Arabic which were published in the Arabic newspapers and even translated in English.(you can find some of them in my Nonviolence Homepage http://go.to/nonviolence
But, unfortunately this is not working in our case, because it was always very violent from both sides, and the language of military power was always used by Israel in order to protect itself and humiliate the Palestinians.
Nonviolence, in the Ghandian way of resistance needs time, education, media and charismatic leadership.. all these things are not now available..
I am afraid to tell you that we are actually dead locked in violence and this language is stronger than any other language in this struggle.

Let me tell you also that the Israeli occupation which is the root cause and the original sin of this conflict is not at all acceptable.. it is the last bloody occupation in the modern world.. therefore we thing that the end of this occupation will end all forms of violence.. there will not be any reason for the Palestinians to continue in their violence which we call resistance.

Alexandria, Va.: Why aren't you doing more to get these gunmen out of the church? When you fail to demand that the gunmen leave you become complicit in their acts. You don't permit Israeli soldiers to live in your church. Why do you permit armed Palestinian gunmen to live there?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: It seems that you don't know exactly what is going inside the Church.. let me tell you briefly:
- Yes there are some gunmen inside the church, but there are also civilians, priests, sisters and members of the PA police who all asked for refuge inside the church because during the invasion of the Israeli army to the Nativity square they all risked to loose their lives.
- Since they are inside the church, therefore, they are under our protection because the church is an immune place.
- I can assure you 100% that no one of these gunmen used his weapon at all.. our condition for them to stay inside the church is not to shoot at all as we are asking also from the Army surrounding the church not to shoot on the church and respect the sanctity of the Holy Place.
- Now after 15 days we are in front of a dramatic situation: we cannot hand them to the army because they simply might be killed. WE cannot tell them to go out because we offered them refuge. It is up to the political leadership of both sides to decide their future and fate.. we wait and we will see.
- We just ask to have a peaceful solution without any scandal or massacre.
In one word: we are not protecting terrorists at all because these people are our people who's lives are threaten, and we consider them all as human beings who need our protection.. because already the Israeli invasion of the city is and aggression which is not legal nor moral.

Arizona: How did the gunmen enter the church? AP has reported they got in by shooting open a door, is this correct? How are they behaving towards the Christian clergy of all denominations who are inside with them?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: Yes they forced the doors of the church from the Franciscan side.. But they didn't have any other choice but to find a refuge anywhere.. and they found that the church is the best place for protection because they where fleeing the Israeli army which suddenly invaded the manger square where they were.

They have good relation with the clergy inside the church.. at they contrary they are living as a big family sharing each other with the little food, water left until now.

The problem is the all of them are under siege by hundreds of soldiers, snipers, tanks..

Herndon, Va.: You mentioned that Israel's bloody occupation is the root of the violence. If Israel pulled out of the occupied areas and built a fence, would the violence end?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: of course it will stop soon, because the Palestinian people is tired also from 54 years of occupation and humiliation and not asking for the moon, sun or stars, we are simply asking to live in peace and freedom on 22% of our own land which actually occupied since more than 34 years..

I thing that you agree with me that if I come and occupy your own home and take three our of your four rooms you will resist me and ask me to leave the house.. now the Israelis have occupied the four rooms and they keep 3 millions of Palestinians inside the fourth room under their control and is telling to them be silent and obedient.. we are simply asking them to leave us live in peace in this forth room.

Arizona: I seem to recall reading somewhere that control of the Church of the Nativity is shared between the Catholics and other Christian denominations, such as the Greek Orthodox and Armenians (and the same holds for many other Christian sites in the region). Could you explain which denominations share control over the Bethlehem site, and how it is shared?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: The nativity church is holy not only for the Christians of the Holy land but to all the Christians of the world.
Now, the Catholics (Franciscan fathers) the Greek orthodox church, the Armenian orthodox church are taking care of the place.. they have historical right over this place.. Every denomination has its own place of control but the share the holy grotto of the nativity together.. this is organized by historical agreement called the STATUS QUO from the time of the ottoman empire..

Inside the church there are:
30 Franciscan fathers and monks
4 Franciscan sisters
8 Greek orthodox priests and monks
8 Armenian orthodox monks
including the 210 Palestinians who asked for refuge inside the church.

Washington, D.C.: What percentage of Palestinians are Christians and what percentage are Muslims? What are relations among them?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: The Palestinian Christian are a small community of almost 200.000 among four millions of Palestinians inside Israel and the Palestinians Authority areas, this meas. around 2% of the total population.
The relation between Christians and Moslems is quiet good since we share the same history, language, geography since more than 14 century.. we know each other very well and we manage to deal with each other in a peaceful way.
The current political problem united both sides more and more because both of us share the same sufferings and seek for the same future of freedom.

Fairfax, Va.: Why were the 190 armed Palestinian fighters allowed to enter the church in Bethlehem? Shouldn't they be offered sanctuary but without arms?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: I have answered this question earlier, but let me tell you that they didn't have any other choice, they were facing death in front of the Israeli invasion of the Nativity square..

When they entered they were armed, this is true, the priests inside should have taken their weapon from the beginning in order to offer them sanctuary, this is true, but now we are facing a fact that all of them are under siege and threat of an Israeliinasion to the basilica, they are afraid therefore they kept their weapon to protect their selves in case of any invasion.. but until now they never used it.

Our Patriarch offered and even asked the Israelis to let him go to the church and collect the weapon of everybody inside, but they didn't allow him at all to go neither to Bethlehem nor to the church..

Boston, Mass.: Dear Father,
What solution to this standoff would you see as a best-case scenario? Thank you.

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: The solution is very simple: the Israelis are reoccupying the whole area of Bethlehem and this is illegal.. they have simply to withdraw and let this people go out and go home safely.. this is the solution that the heads of churches proposed last Saturday to Secretary of State Collin Powell in their letter:
. The Issue of the Basilica of the Nativity



We believe this situation must be handled in two ways:

Humanitarian aid which includes water, food and electricity must be given to the 250 people who have taken refuge in the church. As we know, not all of them are fighters, but there are many civilians in the church, including women and children. Also, the body of the man who was shot.
A possible solution for the Palestinians inside is to have a three days truce declared in which the Israeli army will withdraw from Bethlehem, including the area of the basilica. Then the Palestinian Authority will be asked to collect the weapons and allow the people to go outside the basilica and go safely home.

But, I think that the decision is political and it is not up to us as religious leaders to decide..
We just want a peaceful and honorable solution which will save both the human lives and the holiness of the Holy Place of the Nativity, because we think that it is impossible to make out of this place of peace a place of bloodshed.

Columbia, Md.: What is the official position of the Catholic church on Israel, the Israeli occupation (not just the most recent one) and the national rights of the Palestinian people?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: There is a clear position which was expressed by both the local churches in the Holy Land and the Universal church (The Vatican), I will sum it in this way and let you visit my colleague's homepage (http://www.al-bushra.org) where you find all the material, or write me at my e-mail address (nonviolence@writeme.com) and I will send it to you by e-mail

The position is:
We recognize the right of Israel to exist in security on secure borders (78% of historical Palestine) and in exchange we ask the same right for the Palestinians to live in freedom on their own land (22% of historical Palestine) with an independent state including East Jerusalem as a capital>

Visit my homepage (http//go.to/nonviolence) to see what is our position on the final status for Jerusalem : we speak about one city, for two peoples, three religions, open to everybody (and international spiritual capital for all).

Cambridge, Mass.: The standoff at the church can't last forever. How should it be brought to an end, in your opinion?
Also, can you tell us about the mood inside the church? How are you keeping your spirits up? Thank you.

washingtonpost.com: Since the siege, what has daily life been like in the church? Have you been in touch with other churches and church leaders?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: Of course the standoff cannot last for ever, because this is simply impossible.
Therefore, we are trying our best to find a solution and we are pressing of both side to reach that solution as soon as possible.

The mood inside the church is difficult because they don't have now any water, food, electricity.. there are some wounded people. the Israelis are surrounding them from all sides.. they try day and night to terrorize them with sound or light bombs.. actually there are balloons flown over the compound of the basilica with cameras controlling all their movement.. the last three days noisy laud sound are directed to the churches.

Washington, DC: Why are the clergy members remaining in the church? Are they choosing to stay out of solidarity with the gunmen, or are they being kept in by the Palestinians or Israelis?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: The clergy inside didn't want to leave the basilica for many reasons:
1) The have the duty by their superior to stay there and not to leave the basilica which might be harmed by both the Israelis of the Palestinians if they leave.
2) They expressed several times that they are sharing with the Palestinians everything even the little food and water they have.
3) I can assure you 100% that they are not held hostages by the Palestinians at all.. I have spoken with Fr. Ibrahim Faltas several time every single day, and he is in a very good mood even if he wants a happy end of this crisis,
4) They can go out anytime they want, even the army and the Palestinians inside told them to go, but they simply don't want to go out, because this will create a more difficult situation inside the church, and will give the Israelis either invade the church or simply to launch tear gas on the compound in order to oblige the Palestinians to go out.. Therefore, I think that their presence inside is very important as a protection for both the Palestinians and the Basilica.

Minot N.D.: Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: since this "war on settlements" supports its violent actions with religious imperatives, Jewish or Islam ---maybe religion has become a crutch and a curse?
But as a supporter of non-violence, have you any plans to round up sufficient priests and supporters to surround the Church and demand that all military forces disband...as a nonviolent act to stop more bloodshed?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: Thank you for this question:
Since the first day of the crisis at the nativity church, we tried our best and for three times, with all the religious leaders of Jerusalem, including our Patriarch Michel Sabbah, all the other Patriarchs and heads of churches, we tried to go to Bethlehem from Jerusalem, but the soldiers at the checkpoint didn't even allow us to enter Bethlehem.. we had to stop there and protest and pray..

I would prefer to do this immediately with huge number of peaceful people.. but no way at all to Bethlehem.. even the population of Bethlehem and all the surrounding area are under strict and complete curfew since 15 days.. they cannot move out of their homes.. otherwise they will be shot on.. only the cats and dogs can move in these days there.. all the area is declared a closed military zone.

Concerning you first question about religion: This is true 100% In this country you cannot distinguish between politics and religion at all.. already all their conflict in the Holy Land is based on a false theology and a racist ideology with a falsification of history and geography.. But, Thanks God, there are some signs of hope that religious leaders from the three monotheistic religions are moving towards collaboration after the famous Alexandria meetings.

Columbia, Md.: As far as non-violent protest goes, I seem to recall that at least one Christian Palestinian town (Beit Sahour) attempted a non-violent tax revolt in the first intifada. Were you involved with that? How did that turn out?

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: I am involved in all kind of nonviolent activities since years, especially the last two years..
I have already been a deacon in Beit Sahour itself during that Tax Revolt.. and I remember that the 5th of November 1989, we had a huge gathering in our Catholic Church in Beit Sahour in order to support that civil disobedience..
Some movements were born out of that revolt such as the center of rapprochement between people.. they are going on such activities until now during what they call the ISM ( International Solidarity Movement) you can visit their site:
The Palestinian Centre for Rapprochement between People
64 Star Street, P.O.Box 24
Beit Sahour - Palestine
www.rapprochement.org
=================================
The center is a non-profit making NGO, started in 1988 during the first Intifada.
PCR runs community service programs, youth empowerment and training programs.
PCR is also very much involved in the non-violent resistance against the Israeli Occupation to Palestine.

College Park, Md.: Has anything like this happened before? That is, Israeli or Palestinian fighters taking sanctuary on holy ground in the conflict.

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: This is really unique in the history of this conflict and it seems that it will turn as a real special event.

But, I can recall to your mind that this is not new in the history at all, even in the Jewish tradition they have what they used to call the Cities of refuge (see Ecclesiastic, Ch. 19) and they had also the immunity of the alter in the temple (See Psalm 118)

Now, our position is very clear: As far as these people are inside the church they are under our protection because they asked for refuge and the promised not to use their weapon... and we tell both sides to respect the holiness of this unique Holy Place which should remain a place of peace, because it is impossible to make out of the birthplace of the Jesus, the Prince of Peace, and make it a place of war.

Washington: A simple proposal to end the standoff. All weapons in the church are gathered by the priests inside and removed from the church -- they simply don't belong there.

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: Thank you for your proposal, it is really great and we can do it soon.. but the problem is not there: the problem is the the Israeli army want them all to surrender, and in this case they will be arrested and might be killed.. We are looking for a peaceful solution which will secure both the lives of these people and respect the Holiness of the Holy place..

We will be very glad if the army will simply accept your proposal.

Reston, Va.: Father: I was fortunate enough to visit to visit Bethlehem during a too-short Holy Land trip in 1998. Where inside the church exactly are these men holed up? It's a huge complex I know, so are they crowded into some sort of offices? Are they in the crypt itself? Is there any information about living conditions inside the church, for everyone involved? Peace be with you.

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: I welcome you back another time to visit the Holy Land even during this difficult time.. because we need you solidarity.

Now, for your question:
These people are inside the church and everywhere hidden but not in the script at all.. The problem now is that with the balloons flown with cameras above all the compound, every movement inside the church is under control, therefore, they move from a place to another, and try to stay out of the reach of the snipers who are positioned on the top of the surrounding buildings.. already two men were shot dead and two others were wounded.

The conditions inside are extremely hard and tragic without food, water, medicine and electricity since 15 days and for 250 people..

Father Raed Abu-Sahlia: Dear friends and leaders:
Thank you for your clever and wonderful questions.. I have tried my best to answer some of it in the short time I had since one hour and a half, but it is now midnight here in Jerusalem and I have to go to sleep because we will have another hard time tomorrow in these difficult days.

I hope that you will pray for both of our peoples so that they will know the way for peace after long time of war.

For more information and further details about the subject of the Basilica, or the conflict in the Holy Land, or the news about the Christian communities in the Holy Land, especially the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, you can either visit my Nonviolence Homepage (http://go.to/nonviolece) or write me at my e-mail address (nonviolence@writeme.com) or simply subscribe in order to receive my twice a week newsletter (Olive Branch from Jerusalem)...

I would like also to thank Eleanor Hong from the Washingtonpost.com who gave me this occasion to answer your questions and share with you my own opinion which remain only my own simple and humble one.

Thank you all
With my best wishes from Jerusalem


Fr. Raed Abusahlia
Chancellor of the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem

Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem
P.O.Box 14152 - Jerusalem 97500
E-mail address: latinpat@actcom.co.il
Personal e-mail: nonviolence@writeme.com
Patriarchate's Homepage: http://www.lpj.org
Personal Homepage: http://go.to/nonviolence
Fr. Labib's Homepage: http://www.al-bushra.org
My brother's Homepage: http://go.to/samipage