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Pop Talk
With David Segal
Washington Post Music Critic
Wednesday, Jan. 15, 2003; Noon ET

For a few years, he played guitar and sang in a deeply terrible cover band, the Bremers. The highlight of the group's show was a stalker version of "Leavin' on a Jet Plane," which was retitled "You're NOT Leavin' on a Jet Plane." He's been at The Post for going on eight years, first as a Book World editor, then a Business section reporter and finally as pop music critic. He enjoys the work and would like to point out that he is writing his bio, even though it's written in the third person, like someone else wrote it. Segal is doing that so he appears more important than he is, which is hilarious when you think about it!

The transcript follows.

Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.

David Segal: Good afternoon, people. Well, the pop world has given us plenty of raw material, hasn't it? We've got Pete Townshend under suspicion of actually BEING your wicked Uncle Ernie. There were those Grammy nominations, which as usual, got a little weird. Props to some goofy band called Bowling for Soup and not a single nomination for the Neptunes, arguably the most successful and influential producers of 2002.

We can talk, too, about Avril, that charmingly surly waif who came through town the other day.

And some trivia:

I've been thinking about Frank Black lately for a My Top Ten piece that is (finally coming out in a week or two. I've gone Pixies crazy in the last month and snapping up the missing pieces in my collection of Black's solo collection. Along the way I got curious about the sources of some of Black's obsessions, particularly with UFOs, mentions of which appear in a bunch of his songs.

Does anyone know where that obsession came from?

I learned last week.

Ok, folks, let's get our flex on...

Arlington, Va.: What's your take on Pete Townshend? This will tarnish his genius songwriter legacy!

David Segal: I don't want to prejudge the guy, in part because our info about this whole thing is pretty limited and in part because I love the man's music so much and dearly hope that he'll be cleared. But I have to say his defense so far -- that he was doing research for something he was writing about child porn -- is very flimsy. First, I'm pretty sure the law won't care much about that distinction. Second, there are lot of people who write about horrors of child porn and it's prevalence on the Web without entering their credit cards on illegal web sites, which Pete says he did once. Third, everyone who gets nabbed on this sort of charge claims he (it's always he) is "doing research."

We'll see. I'm just saying, it doesn't look promising to me. And again, I hope I'm wrong.

Los Angeles, Calif.: So how exactly is Avril Lavigne an independent songwriter if she has a three-person writing team working alongside her? I've been under the impression she writes her stuff herself.

And, honestly, how long do you give her? I see very little in terms of songwriting or vocal talent. I'm blown away by the Grammy nominations. These guys (and they are mostly guys) are dying to seem hip, aren't they?

David Segal: Well the Grammys are pretty sales driven prize, though less so now than in the past. She is one of the best selling artists of the year and there was no way the Grammys were going to ignore that. The only really huge selling artist who was snubbed is Creed. And they're reviled, so I guess it didn't take much guts to do that.

I like some of Avril's songs, by the way. Not the Sk8ter Boi tune, if that's the spelling, but others, and she really does have buckets of onstage charisma.

As for her songwriting -- she clearly can't do it alone and I think Arista has been pretty savvy about putting out the idea that she somehow wrote those tunes by herself. As I said in the piece, she worked with the Matrix, a trio in L.A. of professionals, and her involvement in the composition of all those "Let Go" tunes seems like vetting rather than writing. The Matrix has worked in the past with the Backstreet Boys, the sort of fluff Avril is supposed to be replacing.

Got to credit Arista for convincing her fans that she's Carol King with an attitude. The liner notes on "Let Go" don't list any songwriting credits. And they're hand scrawled, complete with cross-outs, by what is clearly supposed to look like the penmanship of a 17-year-old.

Genius!

Arlington, Va.: Frankie's mama saw a UFO hovering over a house in Nebraska in 1965. She told him the story when he was a teenager and he got all into them from then on.

David Segal: That's not a bad guess. But wrong.

Washington, D.C.: I thought you were gone?

David Segal: I am gone. The person typing this is someone else.

Herndon, Va.: David,

When I hear people go on about bands I've never heard of I look at them as pretentious wannabe pseudo-intellectuals who just have to like things that other people don't.

But when I refer to a band that others don't know I pity them as clueless slaves to corporate radio.

The hell's wrong with me?

David Segal: Excellent question. I feel the same way, whenever I spout about a band that nobody has heard of. We both recognize that there is really nothing quite so ugly, so boorish, so utterly inane as a pop snob know it all. There are, by the way, plenty on this chat almost every week. One has written today to hector me for getting a word in the title of the Interpol album wrong. It's Turn On the Bright Lights, not Turn Off, as I had it in a previous chat. Can you imagine the mind set of a person who would store up that info, then log onto to this chat and get all huffy about it?

I must assume that this person hates himself.

Indialantic, Fla.: Blind Boys of Alabama! Did you hear them on "Imus in the Morning" this morning? Wow. I was blown away. Gospel a capella with rhythm guitar and a bass guitar (electric.) That early in the morning and sounding great.

Just wondered if you liked/listened to them. Thanks!

David Segal: The Blind Boys opened for Peter Gabriel a few weeks back and they were pretty great. A weird setting, MCI Center, for an act like that, but they had the crowd. And one of those dudes did something that amazing -- he sang a note for, I swear, on solid minute. I've never heard anything like it. People were awed. And clapping.

Arlington, Va.: Hey Dave, no idea why Charles Thompson writes about ufos, but I am usually alone in claiming Trompe le Monde is leagues better than any other Pixies LP. It is amazing to see their influence on bands from Modest Mouse to those lousy Vines. Anyhow, wanted to share some faves of late: Spoon's Girls Can Tell, Manu Chao's Estacion Esperanza, Ugly Casanova. Oh and Strummer and Mescaleros' 1999 Rock Art and the X-Ray style is great and sad and utterly worthy of the great man's musical legacy.

David Segal: Trompe is a terrific album. My favorite is Bossa Nova, which also gets dissed pretty regularly for reasons that I can't figure out. There's a Pixies DVD coming out soon with lots of interviews with critics and musicians and I hear that Bossa and Trompe get abused. What is wrong with these people? Don't they know it's Turn ON the Bright Lights?

Just kidding about the last part.

Pete Townsend ...: He'll have to explain "Tough Boys". He wants to bite and kiss them?

David Segal: There have been plenty of homoerotic notes in Pete's music. Have you ever heard "And I Moved" which I think was on the B side of the Rough Boys single? It's really about getting seduced by a guy and the seduction is actually tender and the melody is really sweet.

Of course, there is no connection between homoerotic urges and kiddie porn, at least none that I've ever heard.

Crozet, Va.: Aren't all these garage rock bands like the Strokes, Hives, White Vines, etc. just a lot of hype that record companies and rock journalists hope is the next big thing so they'll have something to write about. It's all been done before. I remember watching the Strokes on SNL the first time and thinking, "Hey, I know that song. It's American Girl by Tom Petty." That song wasn't original in 1978.

Let's face it, music is the dullest it's been since the late 50s, early 60s period after the first rock and roll pioneers went away and before Dylan and the Beatles came along. And you know why? Pampered, overindulged suburban kids aren't going to make good music. They need to suffer first, or at least be around lower class types and rip off what they're doing.

David Segal: I have to disagree. First, every band you've ever heard is ripping off the groups before it. Tom Petty will happily tell you who he was robbing. It's just that you probably weren't old enough when you heard American Girl to think -- hey, this sounds a lot like the Byrds!

I think the Strokes are more than a rip off, by the way. The test for me is this: is it possible for another group to rip off X band's sound. I think the Strokes are distinctive enough for the answer to be yes. And we might hear some Stroke-alikes real soon.

Also, most of the energy these days in pop is in hip-hop. That Missy Elliott album is amazing. If you're dining only on rock, you don't have a balanced diet!

Glenmont, Md.: The song that the Townsend episode brings to my mind is "Uncle Ernie" from Tommy...

David Segal: Yes. The sort of song that an abused kid might write.

Frank Black's UFO: When he was a child, he and his five-year-old brother saw a cigar shaped UFO hovering over his house, it didn't make a sound. The entire family saw it and they called the police, who followed it.

I'm Clarksburg. Do I win?

David Segal: You're quite close.

Washington, D.C.: Aren't you a little old to be reviewing pop culture? Your gushing over Avril Lavigne and hatred for Britney Spears seems odd at best. You wouldn't compare two men, would you? So Avril is selling records now -- big deal. Did you see Britney trash Madonna? No!

Kids are fickle and go with the latest trend they are "sold" but your blatant hatred of Britney and everything she stands for is unnecessary. She's a culture and still has millions of fans. Get over yourself and get out of your own way -- jerk!

David Segal: I hate Britney? Where did you get that idea? I love that little hussy and I've got the clips to prove it.

Tenleytown, D.C.: David: Never heard of April Lavigne (hey, the kid is grown) until seeing her performance on Saturday Night Live this last week. Her performance (like most of the show that night) was lackluster at best. No evidence of a rocker in sight. It was a terrible showcase for her talents.

David Segal: You know, Avril isn't really meant for the audience at SNL. You've got to see her in a crowd filled with 13-year-old girls to get a sense of her charisma. She had Nation on fire Sunday night.

Hampton, Va.: Dave:

Appreciated your take on the Phish shows, even though I thoroughly enjoyed them without the benefit of super funky nuggets. (Alas, I did come home to the wife smelling "like Otto's jacket," to quote the classic Simpsons line.)
I understand the band doesn't play your kind of stuff, but, just curious, were there any of the long, risky jams that you really got into? That last night was the best of 13 shows I've been to, in particular because Trey stepped out of the limelight and the band moved together as one. When they're on like that, they make funky, rhythmic and surprising music like no else can in a live show.

David Segal: After that show, I heard from a bunch of Phish fans that they thought it was a lackluster performance, that the band seemed a little pooped. You came away with a different impression and all I can say is, I'm no position to judge, since that was my first show.

That said, there were a few moments in those long jams that I found moving. But not many. This really is one of those phenoms in pop where you're either on board or you're bored. Everyone around me looked transported. To me, those jams wander a little too far and wide, and there's too much jazz influence rumbling around. What was cool to hear was just quickly they could scatter and fall back into formation. They're terrific musicians and they clearly work hard as hell.

I was bummed that the drummer didn't do his vacuum cleaner solo. The vacuum was sitting by his drums but for some reason, he never picked it up.

Re: Strokes: Isn't the inherent problem with bands like the Strokes is that garage-style music can only get you so far? Check out those great Nuggets collections on Rhino and you'll see my point. Almost every garage band that hits only makes it to the second album before the limitation of the sound becomes an issue. The Ramones played forever, but their music became less vital each successive album.

David Segal: It's true. You really have to evolve or die in the music biz. One of the few bands that did that was the Clash. I mean, they were a garage band, as they proudly announced on their first album. But by London Calling they were jumping into everything. They got some grief for it from the faithful and not all of it worked -- there are parts of Sandinista that make me cringe a bit -- but those guys had nerve. And they recognized the problem you're talking about.

Alexandria, Va.: Why is Creed reviled?

From what little I know about them, I don't like them, but I didn't know others hate them.

David Segal: It's because they sound too much like earlier and better grunge bands. They're sounds also sound too much like each other. When I was at their show I kept thinking that they had just played the song they were then playing. Finally, there's so much egotism dripping from lead singer Scott Stapp that he's hard to like.

Washington, D.C.: You say Avril Lavigne "Clearly can't write her songs by herself". Why not? Is there something about youth that makes one incapable of song-writing (Phil Elvrum, Conor Oberst, etc.) Or is there something about bad music that needs a team of writers to work on it (essentially any pop musician.)

David Segal: This isn't a youth thing or a team thing. It's an Avril thing. Lots of kids, solo, have written songs. She just isn't one of them.

Arlington, VA: OK, then how 'bout this. He was playing in the yard with his brother when he was four or five, and some silent aircraft-like unexplainable object flew over their heads and it stayed with him.

David Segal: We're going to accept this as a winner.

Frank -- then Charles -- and his younger brother Erroll were playing in the backyard of their dad's house in Cape Cod when they were roughly 13 and 12. As they were playing, they saw what they each remember as a group of spacecraft that were hovering over their house. The craft stuck around for about 15 minutes. The boys never spoke about it again, until they got together when their father died.

Frank Black's UFO connection: Frank's mother was an extra in 'close encounters of the third kind.' i know this for a FACT, man!

David Segal: That's excellent trivia.

Clarksburg again....: Wasn’t you concerned why your mother wasn’t interested in this as she has seen this thing up close?
- Exactly! But you know, she’s a very religious person and has, as far as I know, absolutely no interest in this subject-matter. And I had never heard it being discussed in my house, and I never heard it being discussed again.
- Anyway ... there’s another incident with a ship when I was 5. I was playing in the yard with my brother and a metallic-type of rocket ... I was thinking about it like some kind of missile...
Like a cigar-shaped craft?
- Yeah, exactly! It flew over the yard where we were playing and it was completely silent. And for some reason my brother and I just looked at it as it went over the house. We didn’t discuss it afterwards. And it made an impression on me, deep inside me...I mean, we were so young! We just went back to play.
- Now I’ve kept this memory with me for my whole life and I have never discussed it with my brother. And in my own mind I had invalidated it as an incident. I assumed I probably saw a military-plane fly over me...you know, I didn’t see a rocket ship or cigarr-shaped missile or anything like that. And that’s what I’ve been telling myself for all these years. But for some reason...off all the airplanes I’ve seen flying over my head, the only incident I think about is from when I was so young!

David Segal: Cool!

We're talking about the same episode here. Big difference in ages, though. I got my info from Erroll, who apparently added a few years in his version of these events.

To Washington, D.C.: I hate to tell you but to put the words "Britney" and "culture" in the same paragraph is an unforgiveable offence!

David Segal: You think Britney isn't part of the culture? She's had a huge impact on our culture. I don't mean to say she's "cultured," though she's a smart cookie. But get yourself to a Britney show, if there is another. You'll know what I'm talking about.

Alexandria, Va: C'mon David. Why the kudos for Avril and her ilk? Behind the wannabe punk clothing is a spoiled girl who can barely carry a melody. The same with Michelle Branch and Vanessa Carlton -- who should be brought up for war crimes for her cover of "Paint it Black."

David Segal: Look, what are you comparing Avril too? The Pixies? The Stones? I don't think that's the right criteria. You have to evaluate an act like Avril in the context of its fan base. It will never work for you. And I certainly would never make any claims that would put her in big leagues of rock. But she certainly can sing and she damn sure can get a crowd of kiddies into a tizzy. That's it. But that's a lot.

Flaming Lips: Dave;

I am so digging the Flaming Fips Yosimi Battles Pink Robots album (I know I am a late bloomer ...) what do you know about this band (I am a new comer) I hear they are from Nebraska? Could this be? I have also heard they are just "he" one guy ... I am very confused and unhip. Please help!

David Segal: Head to allmusic.com and check out the Lips there. The band is now a trio, been around for many years. Changed their sound a lot for an album called "The Soft Bulletin" which is considered their masterpiece and which I'm certain you will flip for. I did. I still do.

Townshend + Child Porn Accusations = The New Red Scare: Please lay off Pete until there are some more facts.

I hate people and groups who criticize "X" without seeing or hearing it for themselves, -- i.e. ol' ninnies who come down on rap songs but have never actually heard them. Child Porn in not rap, no, but I think Pete, if said defense is true, was doing the right thing by seeing it for himself before trying to attack it.

Also, don't the people going after child pornographers have it backwards? If you want to stop Big Tobacco, for instance, you don't go arresting smokers!

I think Pete's story has merit. He claims to have possibly been abused by a relative as a child, which he wrote about indirectly in his work (Tommy). It might sound flimsy, but you sound flimsier for giving weight to the unproven accusations with so little information available!

David Segal: I'm not in court here so my prejudging is pretty benign. I'm just taking Townshend's explanation on its face. If it's illegal to visit kiddie porn web sites and illegal to enter your credit card because you want to purchase something off one, I don't think it matters whether you were doing it for research or not.

Also, there's a good reason to fight kiddie porn at the buyer end. If there's no market for it, the suppliers will be out of business. Of course, the feds better be tracking down the suppliers, too.

Washington, D.C.: Seriously, Dave. It's music times like these that make me say, "Darn, I really wish there was a Skid Row album coming out soon."

David Segal: Really? Has it gotten that bad?

Washington, D.C.: Since Avril can "get a crowd of kiddies into a tizzy", does she face the same dilemma as Britney -- how to keep the fans as they age? I loved bubble gum when I was 10. When I was 20, you couldn't have caught me dead listening to it. Since it's all marketing anyway, how will she do it?

David Segal: It'll be very hard. Especially because she's getting famous so fast. The anti-Avril backlash is coming, I'm sure, because any time an artist rises so high, an opposite force pops up and starts in with the brickbats.

Baltimore, Md.: People, get a clue. Avril's "alternative" image is just as contrived and manufactured as Britney's. One does not get to be on MTV if one has not been filtered by the corporate media system. Trent Reznor and Marilyn Manson are not really twisted tortured souls but since it helps them sell a lot of records, they are more than happy to put that image out there. It's all about the product folks. The only truly subversive music being made is techno.

David Segal: Ok.

Arlington, Va.: I have to disagree with previous poster's comments re: Avril on Saturday Night Live - I was expecting to hate it and switch channel but was completely disarmed by her stage presence. I really liked her! And I'm a 35 yo female...
That said, is the cd worth buying?!

David Segal: I think it's pretty good, yes.

Virginia: Daaaaave - am i justified in being weary and cynical of the record industry each year finding a new crop of HOT YOUNG TALENT WHICH WILL CHANGE MUSIC FOREVER, only to have said talent dry up and blow away after, like two albums? seriously, the list of best new artists over the last decade reads like an inventory of tower records' cutout bin. thanks, and love the chats.

David Segal: Thanks.

I think it's the nature of pop to devour its young every two years. It's a pretty ephemeral industry. We're fickle, the labels are trend spotting constantly, we're constantly craving something different -- it all conspires to keep the top of the charts in a pretty steady state of churn. That said, there are tons of artists out there who put out terrific music for years. Like Frank Black. But you'll never hear them on the radio or anywhere near Billboard.

Asking the pop merchants to stop spitting hot young new things is like asking the auto makers to stop updating the design of their cars.

Positive Note: STOP ALL THE BELLYACHEIN'!!!

No- music has not suddenly all crud- I think that the homogenization of radio makes people feel this way- if you are in a sound rut take a chance on some of the great sounds emerging from Britan (Coldplay is the tip of the iceberg) or yes, turn to hip-hop which is AMAZING and which you WILL like if you try it... start with De La Soul ... and relax.

David Segal: Mazel tov.

There is a lot of excellent music out there. It's harder to find, but it's out there.

Reston, Va.- Re: Pixies: Trompe was far better than Bossanova, which had some stand outs fer sure, but nothing beats Dolittle. Saw them in '91 w/ Pere Ubu at Johns Hopkins (last show ever there I think) opening up and theres nothing like Kim Deal standing there drunk as hell trying her best to play the bass line to Gouge Away while all us kids are ripping up the front row of theater style seats, turning them upside down and jumping up and down on the BOTTOMS of the seats. Oh yeah, and watching the folks in the balcony go ape---t and make the whole place shake during Crackity Jones.

I miss being 16.

David Segal: Dang, I wish I'd been there. Never saw them live.

Arlington, Va: I just don't get the grammy awards. Do they only nominate stuff that gets a lot of stuff on mainstream top 40 radio? because it certainly doesn't represent the "best" to someone who knows their music. I am not being a snob - but you have to admit that bands that truly put out remarkable records last year get no recognition whatsoever in the AMAs or the grammies (Flaming Lips and Wilco come to mind - heck, I thought even Ryan Adams had gone mainstream enough to have a shot... Rhett Miller's fantastic solo album came out - one of the best songwriters around - and he gets nothing, even though he popped up his sound for that effort. Sad sad sad...).

So really - is it all about what sold to the kiddies and middle America? Because it's not about innovation or intelligent songwriting. Just because the public consumes it in mass quantities doesn't make it good! (So Creed's snubbing was nothing but good news....)

David Segal: The Grammys have actually improved a whole lot. Christopher Cross dominated the awards during his very brief reign. A guy named Michael Green re-jiggered the nominating process and, seriously, things have much improved. They've got a long way to go, certainly, but there's some excellent bands in the mix this year. The Soundtrack of Our Lives? They would never have been mentioned a few years back.

Frank Black: I bought his debut self-titled album back in college. It was the cool college rock at the time. Never bought anything else. What other of his albums would you suggest?

David Segal: I like the new one "Black Letter Days." Pretty mellow, but some great stuff.

David Segal: OK, people. I think our work is done for this week. Join me again next time, same bat Web site, same bat time.

Till then,

Rock on with your bad self.

David

David Segal: And sorry that I couldn't get to more of your questions. Next time!