| Safety in Public Places
With Randy Bruegman
President, International Association of Fire Chiefs (IAFC)
Monday, Feb. 24, 2003; Noon ET A nightclub fire was ignited Thursday in West Warwick, R.I. when a heavy metal band's fireworks burned out of control, destroying the building and turning the concert audience into a frantic mob. At least 86 were killed and more than 160 others were injured. The town's fire chief said the club did not have a permit for an indoor fireworks display and that he had information indicating no license was issued by the state fire marshal. It was reported that the building did not have sprinklers and was not required to because it did not have sufficient square footage to fall under the law. The disaster came just four days after 21 people were killed and more than 150 injured during a stampede in a Chicago nightclub that followed the use of pepper spray by a security guard. "I think the importance of what we just witnessed in Rhode Island is the fact that with the proper codes, the proper enforcement and the motivation to make buildings safer, we can prevent tragedies like this from occurring," said Randy Bruegman, president of the International Association of Fire Chiefs, in an interview with washingtonpost.com. Bruegman will be online Monday, Feb. 24 at Noon ET, to discuss the importance of fire and building codes, personal responsibility when entering public buildings and the cultural aspect of why we allow this type of situation to occur. IAFC represents approximately 13,000 fire chiefs throughout North America and internationally. Bruegman is fire chief of Clackamas County Fire District #1 in Milwaukie, Oregon. He serves on the editorial advisory board for Fire Chief magazine and is a member of the Review Panel for Building and Fire Research for the National Institute of Standards and Technology. A transcript follows. Editor's Note: Washingtonpost.com moderators retain editorial control over Live Online discussions and choose the most relevant questions for guests and hosts; guests and hosts can decline to answer questions.
washingtonpost.com: Chief Bruegman, thank you for being with us today. The investigation into the Rhode Island nightclub fire is underway. It's been reported that experienced firefighters were shocked at how fast the building went up. What can you tell us about the fire and how dangerous was that building? Randy Bruegman: What we saw in the fire was very typical in what we see in classic fires that we go to everyday. The dynamics that you saw the fire take is what is typically called "rollover," where the fire that extends up the wall and over the ceiling then rolls over very quickly to other parts of the building.
The surprise from the firefighters' standpoint is that that type of occupancy would have that type of flame spread. Normally in buildings of assembly-type occupancies, the materials that are used for interior finishes of a building would not ignite and spread as quickly as it appeared this did.
Vienna, Va.: Are pyrotechnics generally allowed at indoor clubs? Randy Bruegman: They can be if the local ordinance allows such and if the building has the proper design features included. In all cases the authority having jurisdiction provides a permitting process by which the pyrotechnic firm applies for a permit. The permit and the devices to be used are reviewed by the local fire marshal's office and then it is determined whether the display can be utilized or not. In all cases, the building has to be designed for such type of activity.
Houston Tex.: As a former fire marshal, I have personally witnessed night club resistance to following simple rules and maintaining adequate and accessible exits; Can the IAFC provide national leadership via their divisions to get more involved? Randy Bruegman: The answer is yes. One of the goals of my presidency this year which was outlined in the document, "A Time To Lead," was that the IAFC must take a more aggressive role in promoting fire prevention and life safety by ensuring that chief fire officers have a greater degree of involvement with codes and standards. We recently have formed a fire and life safety section within the IAFC to bring a greater voice and focus on those issues that we know save lives and property.
McLean, Va.: As parents of a teenager, we base permission to attend concerts based on our assessment of whether the driving/parking arrangements are appropriate for suburban kids without "street smarts." (We agree on avoiding drugs and alcohol.) How can we be informed of a club's safety compliance status? Thanks! Randy Bruegman: I think two ways. One is call the club and ask them and ask them what their safety compliance has been. If they have been cited for any fire violations in the past 12 months and if their building has the required exits and an installed sprinkler system. Secondly, call your local fire provider and ask them the same questions.
Silver Spring, Md.: Good afternoon Chief,
I'm a former firefighter from Rhode Island, and rather aggravated at the way the media was handling the information surrounding the identification of victims. I watched one news anchor on a local D.C. station ask the head of the R.I. Red Cross whether families were upset at how slow the identification process was, and had they had many complaints. Is there any way to sensitize the media to the trauma and the difficulties involved in deaths in a fire? Luckily in my short time as a firefighter, there was only one fatality, and I was recruited for CISD for the FF that had been trapped in the room with the body. This isn't easy for anyone involved, and as great as the media is in many areas, death does not become them. Randy Bruegman: The answer is two-fold. At the local level, through the creation of good media relationships with your local providers, the fire service can help direct the tone of the story and protect the vulnerability of the victims' families based upon the relationships you have with local reporters. That gets much more difficult when you're dealing with a national event due to the fact that you have so many national reporters coming in and only staying a short period of time -- those relationships are not established -- therefore, to attempt to attain some kind of control of that and to protect the victims' interests, it is essential that a good public information system be established early on to help direct the information flow and once again to protect the interests of the families involved.
New Orleans, La.: The horrific videotape of the crush at the door of the club leads me to conclude that the number of people overwhelmed the capacity of the door. A similar thing seems to have happened in the Chicago incident. What if anything could be done to prevent such things from occurring? Randy Bruegman: There are two things that have to be looked at. One is the building code in relation to the design of exit-ways. In both of these cases, the question has to be asked whether a larger exit path would have allowed more people to survive the incident. The second aspect that we have to evaluate and factor into our exiting strategies to buildings is the behavioral aspect of people when they are faced with these types of situations.
In both of these cases, the majority of occupants exited to to door that they came in from. We have seen that type of behavior in other major fires. And again it points out the need for us individually to acclimate ourselves to where all the exit-ways are within a structure because, in some cases, the door we came in may not be an option for us to exit in the case of an emergency.
Arlington, Va.: I understand that since the Station was built before 1976, sprinklers were not required to be installed, but can you clarify that law? Do you think that if sprinklers were required, the fire would not have been so fatal? I realize there is probably considerable expense to get a building up to fire code, but wouldn't the cost be worth saving lives? Randy Bruegman: I can't clarify that law because every jurisdiction is different in the codes that they adopt and the allowance of buildings to be grand fathered into that code, which in and of itself is one of the underlying problems that these types of structure present.
I think if the building would've been fully sprinkled I believe the fire would have been contained to the area of origin and would have significantly reduced the threat to the occupants and would've allowed for more time for the occupants to exit before the building became untenable.
We have had this discussion for many, many years at the national as well as the local level in our promotion of the use of sprinkler systems not only in all commercial occupancies but we believe all buildings should have sprinklers, including single family homes. The resistance has been from the building industry because of the perceived increased cost and from the specific areas of the industry such as the nightclub industry because of the expense of putting these systems in, especially in older structures. So what it boils down to in many cases is that discussion before the local governing body which involves the politics and the economics at the local level vs. the fire safety aspect of installing these types of systems. And in many of these discussions, the local fire department loses out in those deliberations.
Washington, D.C.: Sir:
Don't suppose there is a "safest clubs/ venues" list out there? Is there a Web site that, at the very least, lists venues in the area and their respective fire code violations in the past couple of years?
Thank you Randy Bruegman: I'm not aware of any service that provides that type of information but I think it would be an excellent piece of information to provide. It's a good idea.
Southern Maryland: Are there design standards and certification procedures for concert pyrotechnics? Randy Bruegman: Yes there are. There is a National Fire Protection Association Standard, NFPA 1126, "Standard for the Use of Pyrotechnics Before a Proximate Audience" that provides a standard by which pyrotechnics can be used in a venue such as this.
New York City: I find it interesting that it has been reported that during the R.I. fire few people used any of the fire exits and fled to the front doors instead. In my experience, in many clubs, fire doors are painted black or at least blend in with the background and are poorly lit. It's no wonder they weren't noticed in the panic. Rather than creating new regulations, I think it would be more effective to enforce and ameliorate the existing guidelines. Maybe fire exit doors should always be painted red or glow-in-the-dark. Maybe there needs to be flashing lights over doors. Anything to attract attention could save lives. Randy Bruegman: You are exactly right.
Danbury, Conn.: I've been mulling over the idea of purchasing a fire safety ladder for the second floor of my home. Do you think these are a good idea, or is it just another way for companies to make money off of people's fears? Randy Bruegman: No, I think it is an appropriate method to evacuate the second floor of a building especially if you don't have a roof underneath the window that you're exiting from. We always encourage that you have two ways out of your sleeping area and if that is the safest way for you to egress from the window, then we would support that.
Greenbelt, Md.: When emergency exit doors and windows are suddenly opened, doesn't that give the fire a big oxygen boost, allowing it to burn faster? Is there any way to combat that effect, so that more people can get out without increasing the flames? Randy Bruegman: The answer to that is yes and in some cases is true; it depends on the dynamic of the fire at the time and the configuration of the building itself. In larger structures the use of roof ventilation doors are utilized to help control not only the fire but the smoke travel as well and that is usually used in conjunction with a fully alarmed and sprinklered occupancy.
Washington, D.C.: Do we know what kind of interior finishings the club had? Can an architect/engineer/interior designer be blamed for not specifying the proper materials? Thank you. Randy Bruegman: I think it's too early to tell exactly what was involved in the interior finishes of this fire and that will be one of the aspects of what is investigated and determined in the investigation of this fire.
Silver Spring, Md.: Regarding a club's fire code record, are they required to release that information to the general public upon request? Or is it more prudent to go straight to the local fire marshal? Randy Bruegman: I think it would be more prudent to go to the local fire marshal.
New Orleans, La.: One of my concerns in using another exit is that at least I know the door I came in is a way out. I have been in theaters where exits were locked and had it been a fire it would have been a trap. Also I have seen some of these door have alarms with time delays. I don't want to be pressing on a door for 30 seconds waiting for the time release to open. That could be the the difference between life or death. Why are such time delayed door allowed or are they in violation of NFPA? Randy Bruegman: I'm not aware of a time delay on an exit door. I am aware of alarmed exit doors so that it alerts building staff that an exit door has been opened. This is more from a security standpoint than from a fire exiting standpoint. The point that you raise in respect to "I've been in buildings where the doors have been locked," is the indication that you shoud've notified the building owner and asked them to correct the problem immediately or not stay in the building.
Arlington, Va.: I live on the 10th floor of an older (1968) apartment building that does not have sprinklers. Do you have any suggestions for me on how to escape if there was a fire? The only exit we have is the front door; the windows do not open wide enough for a human being to fit through (plus, we're on the 10th floor!). I guess I should just hope for the best? Randy Bruegman: Do you have an option to move? Because the building that you live in puts you a greater risk. You may want to explore relocating to a building that is sprinklered and has adequate exiting. I also would suggest that you contact the building owner or the building homeowners association suggesting that the building be retro-fitted and brought up to current code standards.
Alexandria, Va.: The fire department in Alexandria has greatly reduced the incidence of fire in the city by a very aggressive campaign of code-enforcement. The fire-fighters aren't crazy about it (they'd rather be fighting fires), but it works and it's made the city one of the safest places to live and work and play. Randy Bruegman: I would first of all congratulate Alexandria. Recently retired fire chief Tom Hawkins has been instrumental nationally in focusing on fire prevention and life safety issues and this is reflective of that leadership.
Washington, D.C.: What role do fire fighters play in consoling families in cases such as these? Randy Bruegman: They play a critical role. Not only are the fire fighters on scene charged with responding to and mitigating the emergency but they're also the ones who will remove the victims and in many cases will be the ones who have the first contact with the victims' families as they arrive on the scene in an emergency.
Randy Bruegman: The two tragedies that we have experienced in the last week and a half in this country are indicative of a need to change the way that we look at fire safety in our local communities. As the most advanced industrialized nation in the world it is appalling that we still have one of the highest fire losses and fire death rates in comparison with other progressive industrialized countries. We must take a more aggressive approach in assuring the safety of American citizens through comprehensive code and standard adoption that ensures that buildings new and old meet a baseline level of performance from a fire and life safety standpoint.
It's also imperative for each one of us to accept individual responsibility when we enter a structure to look around, make sure that there is proper exiting, to make sure those exits are properly marked and that other building safety devices such as sprinklers and alarm systems are in place. And if at any that you don't feel comfortable in being able to exit a building quickly in the event of an emergency, don't stay in that building.
In summary, we have the technology to control fire in this country through the use of sprinkler and alarm systems throughout the building industry from residential to the largest commercial building and through the proper enforcement of codes, not only when the building is built but through the life of the building, we can have a dramatic impact on the fire loss and life loss in this country in a short period of time. The question is are we willing as a country to demand this level of protection.
washingtonpost.com: That wraps up today's show. Thanks to everyone who joined the discussion.
© Copyright 2003 The Washington Post Company | 
