Excerpts From Lewinsky's Testimony
Q. What I have placed in front of you is ... a chart that you have ... earlier testified about of contacts between yourself and the president.
As I indicated to you informally beforehand, this grand jury session today is for you to answer questions from the grand jurors.
And so without any further ado, I will ask the grand jurors if they have any questions of Ms. Lewinsky.
A. JUROR I think I'm going to start out.
Q. JUROR Ms. Lewinsky, in your testimony when you were with us on the sixth, you mentioned some of the steps that you took to maintain secrecy regarding your relationship: that you would bring papers or ... you would accidentally bump into each other in the hallway. You always used Betty as the excuse for you to be waved in and on many occasions you would go in one door and out of the other door.
A. Yes. ...
... Q. JUROR: ... Were these ways to maintain your secrecy your idea or were they recommended to you by anyone?
... A. Some of them were my idea. Some of them were things that I had discussed with the President. I think it was a mutual understanding between us that obviously we'd both try to be careful.
Q. JUROR: Do you recall at all specifically which ones he may have recommended to you as an idea on maintaining the secrecy?
A. Yes and no. The issue of Betty being the cover story for when I came to the White House, it became my understanding I think most clearly from the fact that I couldn't come to see him after the election until unless Betty was there to clear me in and that one time when I asked him why, he said because if someone comes to see him, there's a list circulated among the staff members and then everyone would be questioning why I was there to see him. ...
Q. MR. EMICK: ... Were there ever any discussions between you and the President about what should be done with letters that you -- letters or notes that you had sent to him? ...
A. It was my understanding that obviously he would throw them away or, if he decided to keep them, which I didn't think he did, he would put them somewhere safe. ...
Q. What about whether on your caller ID on your telephone the word POTUS would appear and whether anything was done in order to make sure that POTUS did not appear on your telephone?
A. My caller ID at work; it would -- when the President called from the Oval Office, it would say POTUS and when he'd call from the residence, it was an asterisk. And I told him that. ...
Then one time he called me from the residence ... on a line that had a phone number attached to it and so when he called, he said, "Oh, did it ring up, you know, phone number? It didn't say my name, did it?"
And so it was -- that was something that I was concerned about.
Q. Did he ever express to you a reluctance to leave messages on your telephone voice message system?
A. At home?
Q: All right. Tell us about that.
A. One time in a conversation he just said he didn't like to leave messages.
Q. OK. What about the times that you would visit him? Were those times selected in a way so that there weren't people around or that certain people weren't around?
Q. OK. Would you tell us about that?
A. There were obviously people at the White House who didn't like me and wouldn't be understanding of why I was coming to see the President or accepting of that and so there was always sort of an effort made that either on the weekends -- when I was working in the White House he told me that it was usually quiet on the weekends and I knew that to be true. And after I left the White House it was always when there weren't going to be a lot of people around.
Q. And what about particular individual people? Would there be particular individual people who would be -- staffers in the oval area that you would try to avoid in order to help conceal the relationship?
A. Yes. Nancy Hernreich, Stephen Goodin, Evelyn Lieberman. Pretty much anybody on the first floor of the West Wing.
Q. How did all these people come to not like you so much? What were you doing? Were you breaking the rules of the White House? What were you doing to draw their attention to not liking you so much? Before the relationship. From the time you got there all the way up to the time what I'm saying is what did you do to deserve for them not to like you?
A. Before the relationship started?
Q. JUROR Yes. What did you do from --
A. I don't think there was anything I did before the relationship started that -- the relationship started in November of 1995. I had only been at the White House as an intern in the Old Executive Office Building for -- for a few months, so most of my tenure at the White House I was having a relationship with the President.
I think that the President seemed to pay attention to me and I paid attention to him and I think people were wary of his weaknesses ...
Q. JUROR But you do admit a lot of the places that you weren't supposed to be you were always found. You do admit that there were things that you were doing, in order to see him that they were feeling that was going against the rules of the White House? ...
A. Yes and no. There really weren't any of these staffers who saw me in the places that I wasn't supposed to be. And that was part of the effort to conceal the relationship. So does that make sense? ...
I did make an effort, I think, to try to have interactions with the President and I think that was probably disturbing to them. I know that if the President was in the hall and he was talking to people and I passed by, he'd stop talking and say hi to me. I'm not really sure.
Q. JUROR Just a follow-up to that.
Q. JUROR If they didn't see you, well, how did they know?
A. I don't know what they knew. ...
Q. JUROR: Because if you said you made an effort to hide yourself ... the Secret Service are the ones that saw you.
Q. JUROR: Okay. So ... how did they know that you were there ... ?
A. I don't know. ... I've heard reported in the newspapers and on TV that the Secret Service, someone said something to Evelyn Lieberman and I ... had had a real negative interaction with Nancy Hernreich early on in my tenure at the White House and so --
...I'm a friendly person and -- and I didn't know it was a crime in Washington for people -- for you to want people to like you and so I was friendly. And I guess I wasn't supposed to be.
Q. JUROR: So that interaction that you had with Evelyn Lieberman was when she was telling you what?
A. She stopped me in the hall and she asked me where I worked, in which office I worked, and I told her Legislative Affairs in the East Wing.
And she said, "You're always trafficking up this area." You know, "You're not supposed to be here. Interns aren't allowed to go past the Oval Office."
And then I thought about what she said and I realized that, well, I wasn't an intern any more. I was working there. And I kind of believe in clear communication, so I went back to Evelyn Lieberman, to Ms. Lieberman, and I -- I said, "You know, I just wanted to clarify with you that I work here, I'm not an intern. So, you know, I am allowed to go past the Oval Office." I don't think I said that, but I had a blue pass.
And she looked at me and said, "They hired you?" And I was startled and then she said, "Oh, well, I think I mistook you for someone else or some other girl with dark hair who keeps trafficking up the area." And ... that was maybe in December or January of '95 or '96. ...
Q. JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, were you ever reprimanded or chastised by your immediate supervisor in Legislative Affairs for trafficking up the area or being where you weren't supposed to be or being away from your desk too much? Anything like that?
A. Being away from my desk had been mentioned to me, but trafficking up the area and being where I'm not supposed to be, no.
... my view with work is that you get a lot more done and people are a lot more willing to help you when you have a personal interaction with them. And so the person who held the job before me would fax the drafts of his letters to the staff secretary's office and then at some point during the day when someone got the draft they would make the changes and then fax it back.
And I found it to be much more effective to take things over to the staff secretary's office and interact with the person -- I can't remember her name -- Helen -- to interact with Helen and have Helen edit the letters right then and there and then I could go back and to me it was a faster process.
So there was also -- you know, I also wanted to try to see the president. So, I mean, I did make efforts to try to see him in the hall or something like that because --
Q. JUROR: So the route to the staff person's office was a route that you could still veer off and see the president?
... Q. you have indicated earlier that it was Betty Currie who waved you in all the times during 1997 that you saw the President. Did you ever talk with the President about whether he could wave you in instead or whether it would be a good idea for him to wave you in personally?
A. Yes. I think that that's what I mentioned earlier. ...
Q. OK. What about -- you had mentioned that you took a different route into the Oval Office than you would take out of the Oval Office. In addition, did you ever take routes to get to the Oval Office that seemed calculated to avoid certain Secret Service or White House personnel?
A. Not Secret Service, but I liked or I preferred to sort of meet up with him and then we'd walk in together. And I preferred to go in through the Rose Garden because then I wasn't going -- I wasn't risking the possibility of running into someone in the hall right outside the Oval Office. ...
Q. (PROSECUTOR): ... I think you've testified earlier that most of the sexual contact that you had with the president tended to occur in the hallway, rather than in the study, although sometimes it was in the study itself.
Did that have anything to do with whether or not it would be easier to see you in the study as opposed to the hallway?
A. I think so, but I don't specifically -- I don't specifically remember discussing that with the president, but there were circumstances that that sort of was obvious to me.
Q. And would that include the fact that windows in the study tended to be uncurtained?
A. Just that, windows. Yes. ...
Q. (PROSECUTOR): In that regard, you also mentioned that you would move from the oval area or that sometimes you'd start in the Oval Office and then you'd move towards the hallway. Did the president ever initiate that move?
A. I think we both did. I mean, it just depended on the day. It wasn't --
Q: Was it understood that you wouldn't actually have a sexual encounter in the Oval office?
A. I'm sure it was understood. I -- I -- I wouldn't have done that. I mean -- so -- I'm sure he wouldn't have done that.
Q. (PROSECUTOR): Are there windows all around the Oval Office?
A. There are windows all around and it just I know this may sound silly, but it wouldn't be appropriate. You know.
Q. What about any discussions with the president about not acknowledging one another at parties or photographs, for example?
A. He called me in my office the day of Pat Griffin's going away party and had asked me if I was going to go. I said yes and he said, "Well, maybe we can get together after that."
And I told him I didn't think that was a good idea, that people were going to be watching. I was paranoid anyway and -- so I said, "I think it's a good idea if we just sort of ignore each other at the party and don't really say anything." And that's what we did.
Q. And what about with respect to a photograph that was taken at the party and whether --
A. I mean, we didn't discuss this. I didn't know there was going to be a picture taken. ...
Q. So in that case, that would be a concealment effort, but not one that the president and you had collaborated on.
Q. All right. What about an occasion when the president suggested that the two (of) you might attend a movie and sort of bump into each other outside the movie? Tell us about that discussion.
A. He told me he was going to watch a movie with some friends of his and that if I wanted to I could bump into him in the hall outside and then he'd invite me into the movie. ...
And he said yes and I don't remember who he said was going to be there, but I said I didn't think that was a good idea.
Q. And why would you have to make prior arrangements for you to bump into each other rather than having sort of a -- you know, walk down the hall together to the movie?
A. Well, I --
Q. I know it's kind of obvious.
A. For obvious reasons, I guess, because it wouldn't be appropriate. It -- people would -- people would wonder what was going on.
Q. Right. Right. Okay. What about the fact that you made -- that you sent gifts and notes through Betty rather than directly to the president?
Was that something that was done in order to make it less obvious that the notes were actually to the president? ...
A. You can't -- I mean, you can't send a courier thing to the president, you know, a courier to President Clinton, so --
Q. JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, did you ever discuss with the president whether you should delete documents from your hard drive, either at the office or at home?
... Q. JUROR: Did you ever discuss with the president whether you should deny the relationship if you were asked about it?
A. I think I always offered that.
Q. JUROR. In discussions with the president?
A. In discussions -- I told him I would always -- I would always deny it, I would always protect him.
Q. JUROR. And what did he say when you said that? What kind of response did you receive? ...
A. ... I -- in my head, I'm seeing him smile and I'm hearing him saying "That's good," or -- something affirmative. You know. Not -- not "Don't deny it." ...
Q. (PROSECUTOR): Ms. Lewinsky, with respect to the weekend visits, did the president ever initiate that idea ...?
A. Yes. The -- I don't remember if it was the Wednesday or the Friday when the relationship first started, he said to me at some point, you know, "You can come see me on the weekends. I'm usually around on the weekends." So --
Q. And did you understand what that meant?
A. Yes. To me, it meant there aren't as many people around on the weekends. ...
JUROR. ... When you first made the determination that you were moving to New York and you wanted to explore the possibilities of a job in private industry, can you recall how you first got the recommendation about Vernon Jordan's assistance in this endeavor?
A. I can't. I know that it was -- what I don't remember was if it was my idea or Linda's idea. And I know that that came up in discussions with her, I believe, before I discussed it with the president. I know that I suggested to the president or I -- I didn't suggest, I asked the president if Mr. Jordan might be able to assist me. ...
JUROR. ... Did you and the president ... ever talk about sort of, you know, that you weren't really having sex? ...
JUROR: Was there ever sort of an understanding that, well, oral sex isn't really sex? Or did you talk about that?
A. We didn't talk about it. ...
... JUROR: After you left the White House, it seems as if you attended a number of public functions where you came in contact with him. Was that by chance? Was that something you wanted to do? Was it a way to see him? Was it something that he suggested? ...
A. Sure. No. Those were all ways for me to get a chance to see him. I'm an insecure person and so I think -- and I was insecure about the relationship at times and thought that he would come to forget me easily and if I hadn't heard from him -- especially after I left the White House, it was -- it was very difficult for me and I always liked to see him and it -- and usually when I'd see him, it would kind of prompt him to call me. So I made an effort. I would go early and stand in the front so I could see him, blah, blah, blah.
Q. PROSECUTOR: Let me ask a follow-up question to that because I think it may have been in about October of `96 when you had a telephone conversation with him just prior to you going to Billy Shaddock to get a photograph.
Q. During the conversation before, did you and the president have any discussion about your dropping by and seeing him at a public departure?
Q. All right. Would you tell us about that?
A. Let's see. I spoke with him -- I think it was October 22nd, and then I saw him at an event October 23rd and he called that night and I had mentioned to him on -- I think it was a Tuesday, the first phone conversation, that I was going to be at the White House on Thursday.
And when he called me Wednesday night, he said -- I was upset with him and so then he said, you know, "Don't be mad. Don't be mad." You know. "Are you coming tomorrow?"
And I said yes.
So he said, "Well, why don't you stop by Betty's office, stop by to see Betty and then maybe you can come see me for a few minutes before I leave." So --
Q. Okay. All right. The reason I was asking that as a follow-up is that's sort of a prearranged semi-public occasion for the two of you to see each other.
A. Right. I don't -- I don't know necessarily that I was going to go to the departure.
Q. I see.
A. But that was maybe kind of a cover story.
Q. I understand.
A. Or I'm not -- I know he had a departure and I know that I was going to see him for a few minutes before the departure because I thought -- I remember thinking that I might get to kiss him, so -- ...
JUROR: Did you get to see him that day?
A. No, I didn't.
JUROR: Okay. Could you tell us a little about that?
A. Sure. I -- the short of it is that I didn't end up seeing him because Evelyn Lieberman was hanging around and left with him that day.
JUROR: She was someplace where she didn't belong.
... A. ... He had this big 50th birthday party at Radio City Music Hall and there was a cocktail reception and at the -- when he came to do the rope line and he -- after he greeted me and talked to me, he was talking to a whole bunch of people in and around my area and I had -- can I stand up and show you?
MR. EMMICK: Sure. Sure.
A. Okay. If this is the rope line and here are all the people and the president's standing here, as he started to talk to other people, I had my back to him and I just kind of put -- put my hand behind me and touched him.
... A JUROR. Did anybody see you?
... A. No.
A JUROR. But there were people around.
A. There were, but it was -- he was talking -- everybody was enamored with him. .. He was always very close to me when -- whenever he'd do these rope lines and would sort of make a point of talking to me ... while other people were there and he'd usually hold my hand -- you know, sort of shaking hands and just -- would continue to just touch me somewhere. I mean, not intimately, not ...
MR. EMMICK. Right. Just to set the scene, are there a lot of people kind of bunched together at the time?
A. ... If everybody in the room came and stood in this one small corner, that's -- I mean, that's how crowded it was. So it was and my back was to him and he was, he was holding onto my -- I think he was holding onto one of my arms or something, I had a sleeveless dress on.
... And it wasn't -- it wasn't a -- it was maybe sort of a grazing over of that area, but it wasn't, it wasn't how you might imagine it if someone described this, from a scene from a movie. It wasn't like that, but it was -- you know. I don't even know if he remembers ...
A. I'm not really sure, because I don't think it was to necessarily gratify him or arouse him. ...
... It was just -- playful, not something I'd ever thought I'd have to discuss publicly.
JUROR: ... Out of all of the times you had intimate contact, were there times when the President would touch you either on the breasts or in the genital area directly to the skin or was it always through clothing?
A. Directly to the skin. Both.
A JUROR: I have some questions about the 50th birthday. That's when you gave the President the yellow tie. ...
There's been some press accounts about that tie, last night and today. ...
My question to you is have you authorized your attorneys or any other spokesperson through you to discuss that evidence?
A: Gosh. I don't think I've necessarily given a direct authorization.
... There have been a lot of instances since the beginning of this thing that there's been information that's come out from places where I hadn't expected it and that includes my own -- the people on my team. ...
JUROR: So you don't know whether that information is coming from people that you have discussed it with?
A. ... I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there was confirmation or some of that information came from there.
... I'm sure it was somewhat limited because with my agreement, we're not allowed to talk to the press. We're not supposed to. ...
Q. BY MR. EMMICK: So I guess there's --let me just rephrase it. It sounds like you wouldn't be surprised by it, but do you have any direct knowledge that it occurred?
... JUROR: On the day you were here testifying, there was a report on the TV --
A JUROR: The president in the Rose Garden wearing that tie. Did you see that?
A. That evening I did.
JUROR: When you saw him with the tie, what did that say to you?
A. I understand you had to do what you had to do. That's what it meant to me. I had looked -- because I had seen him wear this tie prior, a few other occasions since January, I had looked the day before my testimony because I thought he's just the kind of person that's going to wear this tie to tug on my emotional strings one last time before I go into the grand jury and say this under oath. And he didn't.
And him wearing it the day I came to testify sort of having to know that I wasn't going to see it until the end of the day, to me was just kind of you know, hey, you had to do what you had to do. But --
... A. JUROR: Do you think that he would remember that it's from you? ...
A. Ties were a big issue with us and I used to bug him all the time on the phone, "Well, when are you going to wear one of my ties?" ...
And I used to say to him that "I like it when you wear my ties because then I know I'm close to your heart." So -- literally and figuratively.
A JUROR: Can you tell me what your thoughts were when you saw the pictures of Nelvis wearing the first tie that you gave the President?
... A. I had two very different thoughts. My first thought was "You jerk. You're trying to show me how little you care about me ... to show me that you gave it to someone else, it meant so little to you now."
And my second thought was that it was sort of some sort of message of some sorts. I don't know what. Because I could see the president kind of saying to Nel, you know, "Oh, why don't you" -- I could even see him spilling something on Nel on purpose and that morning and then sort of saying, "Oh, here, just wear this tie," or something like that. I mean -- he's funny that way. But I thought there was some sort of deliberateness to it. ...
... A JUROR. You really think he would have remembered that first tie?
A. I know he did. ... I don't know if you all know this or not, but I worked in a men's necktie store when I was in college for four years and so that was my thing. ... And so I love ties. And I, I mean, I can pick out -- you know -- different designers and stuff. And so that was a big thing for me. And then, and I liked to give him ties and I liked to see him wearing them.
... But ties were such a big issue between the president and me that I really couldn't have imagined that he didn't, that he didn't know.
A JUROR: Okay. I have a question that's a bit on the delicate side. ...
Did you and the president ever engage in sexual relations using cigars?
... Just once. Just once.
JUROR: When you last testified, you told us that photographs that you saw of the president and first lady when they were away that were romantic in nature upset you.
When you had an opportunity to speak with the president about those photographs or any film that was taken during these romantic moments, what did he say? ... I'm just curious as to whether or not they were staged. ...
A. ... I don't believe we discussed them. ...
JUROR: Did you think any conversations to him about his wife were inappropriate?
A. I don't know if inappropriate is the right word. I tried not to. I -- there were very few discussions and I tended to say things like, "Well, when you're alone," you know, "Call me when you're alone," kind of a thing. ...
A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, I wondered if you ever had any trouble with the Secret Service in trying to be near the President.
A. No. ...
A JUROR: I have a question about Linda Tripp.
A. Ugh. Sorry.
A JUROR. In your conversations with Ms. Tripp, was her opinion always that she must be truthful or was there a time where your impression was that she was going to provide you with cooperation as far as keeping the secrecy?
A. There are two areas of that, I guess. Linda always told me she would always protect me and she would never tell anybody and keep my secret, up until the Paula Jones case came about.
And I had never had any reason to think that she would ever need to discuss this under oath because I was certainly always going to deny it and I couldn't even imagine a situation where that would really come up.
But there was a point in the period prior to my learning about her being subpoenaed in the Paula Jones case, most specifically, Jan. 9, when she led me to believe that she was not going to tell about my relationship and that she was going to be vague on the truth about Kathleen Willey and was just not going to really remember anything else and that was why I agreed to meet with her on Tuesday the 13th. ...
(PROSECUTOR): I'd like to ask a clarifying follow-up because I wasn't sure I understood all of the sort of ins and outs, if you will, of when Linda was going to maintain the secret and when she was going to reveal it. It sounded like prior to the time when Linda got a Paula Jones subpoena, your understanding was she was doing to keep the secret.
Q. And then after she got the Paula Jones subpoena, then she told you that she was going to disclose things and tell the truth. Is that right?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. OK. And then in this conversation on Jan. 9, she indicated some willingness to consider keeping the secret a bit longer.
A. No, considered that she was going to do that.
Q. That she was going to. All right. That's what I wanted to clarify.
(PROSECUTOR): Thank you.
JUROR: When you said that in your conversations with Linda Tripp you kind of had to exaggerate some things about the president to her, you exaggerated on some of the things you said to her about the president --
A. I'm not sure about that. I -- I don't know if exaggerate is the right -- is maybe the word I would choose. ...
A JUROR. ... why do you think that you had to not tell her some things that did actually happen, true things, in talking to her?
A. That really came about in relation to the Paula Jones case. ... there were some occasions, one in particular that I remember, when I didn't disclose a contact that I had with the president -- ... after the Paula Jones case, I was scared to death. I mean, I was panicked that she was going to tell. So ... some of the things I said about Mr. Jordan, I said, you know, oh, the president told me I have to lie, I don't even remember everything I said, but I know that there were certainly lies at that point, not even exaggerations. ...
Q. What were the nature of the lies that you were telling to Linda Tripp during that January period?
A. Oh, gosh. They went from -- I guess a non-disclosure of my meeting with him on the 28th, no my phone call with him on the 5th of January, to -- ranging to things that he said I had to do or told me to do.
I haven't -- I haven't seen transcripts of those days, thank goodness, but I just know that I was -- I was scared to death. And I thought any influence that anybody would have, my mother, Mr. Jordan, the president, anybody, would -- I used.
Q. All right. ...
A. Can you guys call me Monica? Are they allowed to call me Monica instead of Ms. Lewinsky? ...
FOREPERSON. If you say so. ...
A. I'm just 25. Please.
A JUROR: But you'll always be Ms. Lewinsky, whether you're 25 or 28 or ...
A. Not if I get married.
A JUROR: Blue.
A JUROR: Blue dress.
A JUROR: Did you have a reason to keep it?
... A. No. I didn't have a reason. The reason -- the dress -- I didn't realize -- if I remember correctly, I didn't really realize that there was anything on it until I went to go wear it again and I had gained too much weight that I couldn't fit into it.
And it seemed sort of funny and I -- it may sound silly, I have a lot of clothes. I don't clean all my clothes right after I wear them, I usually don't clean them until I know I'm going to wear them again. And then I was going to wear it for Thanksgiving because I had lost weight and I had -- I had shown the dress to Linda at that point and had just sort of said to her, "Well, isn't this" -- You know, "Isn't this stupid?" Or, you know, "Look at this, isn't this gross?" Or whatever. I don't really remember exactly what I said.
And she told me that I should put it in a safe deposit box because it could be evidence one day.
And I said that was ludicrous because I would never -- I would never disclose that I had a relationship with the president, I would never need it.
And then when Thanksgiving time came around and I told her that I was going to wear it for Thanksgiving, she told me I looked fat in the dress, I shouldn't wear it. She brought me a jacket from her closet ... to try to persuade me not to wear the dress.
So I ended up not wearing it and then I was going to clean it. I took it with me up to New York and was going to clean it up there and then this broke, so --
JUROR: Okay. Your relationship with the President, did your mother at any time try to discourage the relationship?
A. Oh, yes.
JUROR: Well, what kept it going? I mean, what kept it -- you keeping it active or whatever?
A. I fell in love. ...
JUROR: When you look at it now, was it love or a sexual obsession?
A. More love with a little bit of obsession. But definitely love.
JUROR: Did you think that the President was in love with you also?
A. There was an occasion when I left the White House and I was pretty stunned at how I felt because I did think that. ...
JUROR: And today, Monica, do you still love the President?
A. Before Monday, I would have said yes.
JUROR: So then it is no?
A. I don't know how I feel right now. ...
JUROR: I guess I would like to know what happened Monday to make you just by Thursday change your mind so completely.
A. I don't think it's so much changed my mind. I think -- it's -- it was very painful for me to watch his speech on Monday night. I -- it's -- it's hard for me to feel that he has characterized this relationship as a service contract and that that was never something that I ever thought it was. ...
JUROR: Well, let's -- you said the relationship was more than oral sex. I mean, it wasn't like you went out on dates or anything like that, like normal people, so what more was it?
A. Oh, we spent hours on the phone talking. It was emotional.
JUROR: Phone sex?
A. Not always. On a few occasions. I mean, we were talking. I mean, interacting. I mean, talking about what we were thinking and feeling and doing and laughing. We were very affectionate, even when -- after he broke the relationship off in May, I mean, when I'd go to visit with him, we'd -- you know, we'd hug each other a lot.
You know, he always used to like to stroke my hair. He -- we'd hold hands. We'd smile a lot. ... I just I thought he had a beautiful soul. I just thought he was just this incredible person, and when I looked at him I saw a little boy and -- I don't know what the truth is any more. ...
JUROR: ... I'm not understanding these two different things because one time you're sentimental but then again you do just the opposite of what you say you're thinking. Did you ever think that ... anything real could -- and truthful and honest -- could have come from this relationship?
JUROR. With this married man?
A. I did.
JUROR: It's been reported in the papers that you had a relationship before similar to this, where a lot of hurt and pain came out of this, you know, a lot of hurt and pain toward a family. ... I can't figure out why you keep going after things that aren't free, that aren't obtainable.
A. ... That's a hard question to answer because obviously there's -- there's work that I need to do on myself. There are obviously issues that -- that, you know, a single young woman doesn't have an affair with a married man because she's normal, quote-unquote. But I think most people have issues and that's just how mine manifested themselves. It's something I need to work on and I don't think it's right, it's not right to have an affair with a married man. I never expected to fall in love with the president. I was surprised that I did.
And I didn't -- my intention had really been to come to Washington and start over and I didn't want to have another affair with a married man because it was really painful. It was horrible. And I feel even worse about it now. ...
No one likes to have their weaknesses splayed out for the entire world, you know, but I understand that. And I'd rather you understand where I'm coming from, you know, and you'd probably have to know me better and know my whole journey to how I got here from birth to now to really understand it. ...
... JUROR: As I understood our discussion this morning, you said that you offered to deny the relationship and the president didn't discourage you, but said something like "That's good."
As I read your proffer here, it says "The president told Ms. L to deny a relationship if ever asked." And that seems to me slightly different.
A. I forgot this. So that's true.
JUROR: Is this proffer statement correct, that he did tell you to deny a relationship?
A. Yes. I don't -- I don't -- when I answered the question earlier, that was what first came to my mind. But, I mean, I know that this is true.
I just at that point -- and I -- really reading it, I know it's true because I was truthful in my proffer, but sitting here right now, I can't remember exactly when it was, but it was something that was certainly discussed between us.
JUROR: And what about the next sentence also? Something to the effect that if two people who are involved say it didn't happen, it didn't happen. Do you recall him saying that to you?
A. Sitting here today, very vaguely. ... And I can hear his voice saying that to me, I just can't place it.
JUROR: Is it --
A. And this ... was -- obviously not something that we discussed too often, I think, because it was -- it's a somewhat unpleasant thought of having to deny it, having it even come to that point, but --
JUROR: Is it possible that you also had these discussions after you learned that you were a witness in the Paula Jones case?
A. I don't believe so. No. ...
... A JUROR. I have some questions about the Paula Jones lawsuit. Going back to the period before you even had any idea that you might be a witness in that, did you follow the Paula Jones lawsuit fairly closely?
A. I followed it. ... I didn't follow it as much as I follow this case. ...
... A JUROR. Did you in that period -- again, even before anyone knew that you would be a witness, did you discuss that with the president? Was he aware that you followed it? ...
A. No. Really, the time that I remember we discussed it was on the 17th. ... When I told him my sort of stupid idea for how he should settle it. ... When we spent time together, I know I certainly made an effort unless I was angry with him about something, that there were topics that I wanted to stay away from, and the time that I spent with him was precious to me. So things that were unpleasant I didn't bring up unless I had to.
A JUROR. Exactly what date again did you get your subpoena to be a witness?
A. The 19th of December.
A JUROR. The 19th? Okay. ... Retell for me the conversation you had with the president about the gifts.
A. Okay. It was December 28th and I was there to get my Christmas gifts from him. ... And we spent maybe about five minutes or so, not very long, talking about the case. ... I said to him that it had really alarmed me about the hat pin being in the subpoena and I think he said something like, "Oh, you know, that sort of bothered me, too. ...
And at one point, I said, "Well, do you think I should -- I don't think I said `get rid of,' I said, "But do you think I should put away or maybe give to Betty or give to someone the gifts?"
... I don't remember his response. I think it was something like, "I don't know," or "Hmm" or there really was no response. I know that I didn't leave the White House with any notion of what I should do with them, that I should do anything different than that they were sitting in my house.
And then later I got the call from Betty.
A JUROR. Now, did you bring up Betty's name or did the president bring up Betty's name?
A. I think I brought it up. ...
A JUROR: Thank you.
(PROSECUTOR): I think there was a question in the front. Did you have a question? ...
A JUROR: Yes. Back to the contacts?
JUROR: On page 7, on the 29th of March ...
JUROR: "Private encounter, approximately 1:30 or 2:00 p.m., study. President on crutches. Physical intimacy including oral sex to completion and brief direct genital contact." Brief direct genital contact, could you just elaborate on that a bit?
JUROR: I understand
A. Oh, my gosh. This is so embarrassing.
JUROR: You could close your eyes and talk.
A JUROR: We won't look at you.
A. Can I hide under the table? Uh I had -- I had wanted -- I tried to -- I placed his genital next to mine and had hoped that if he -- oh -- this is just too embarrassing. I don't --
JUROR: Did you think it would lead to intercourse?
A. Not on that day.
JUROR: Was that sort of the reason for doing the gesture --
JUROR: -- or trying to -- moving his closer to yours?
A. Then I -- not that we would have intercourse that day, but that that might make him want to.
... JUROR: About how many encounters did you have in the study? If you can recall.
(PROSECUTOR): What do you mean by "encounters"?
JUROR: Sexual encounters. I'm sorry.
A. Do you include kissing or not?
JUROR: No kissing. According to the definition.
A. OK. Two.
JUROR: OK. Thank you.
(PROSECUTOR): And why don't you give us the dates of those.
A. The -- well, let me look. The 29th of March and the 28th of February. There might have been -- I mean, in terms of the clothes and stuff, there might have been playful touches here and there, but not -- nothing that I would have considered sexual encounters.
Q. And that's not listed as an intimate encounter?
A. No. No, it's not. No, it's not.
Q. And just to clarify again, are those the two times that the President actually came to completion during the oral sex?
(PROSECUTOR): And I'm actually obliged to ask one follow up that I don't think will be too bad, but directing your attention to August 16th, did you attempt to touch the president on that day?
Q. And did you actually touch him? In his groin area?
A. Over his clothes.
Q. Over his clothes. And did he say that's not -- "We can't do that" ?
A JUROR: Did you feel any rejection the times that he wouldn't go all the way with you?
A JUROR: Monica, I had one question to go back to the gifts. You had said that the president had called you initially to come get your Christmas gift ...
A JUROR: So you had initiated the contact on that day?
A. He had -- he had told me on the 17th that he -- you know, he still had these Christmas gifts for me ...
... But when Betty called, then she said, you know, "I understand you have something to give me." It was very vague. ...
So I put them all out on my bed and -- it's sort of been difficult to kind of explain why I put some things in and why I didn't put others in.
The things that seemed to be directly called for in the subpoena, I put in a box: the hat pin, the dress from Martha's Vineyard, some of the pictures and things, the ad to him from Valentine's Day. Not that that was directly called for, but some of the more intimate I guess personal things, except that I kept the "Leaves of Grass" book because that just -- I was worried, I didn't know if I would get the gifts back or not, ever, and so I -- that just -- that meant the most to me of anything he gave me. ...
A. ... I know that the hat pin was a concern to him.
A JUROR. OK. Do you remember what he said in response when you said you were concerned about the things called for in the subpoena?
A. I think he said something like "That concerned me, too." ...
A JUROR. I have another question about that conversation on the 28th. You had already discussed with him earlier the subpoena and the fact that all of your gifts from him were under subpoena and then ...
A. We hadn't discussed that. I wasn't -- I hadn't -- the 28th was the first time that I saw him or spoke to him since I had been subpoenaed. When he called me on the 17th, I wasn't yet subpoenaed.
A JUROR. OK. OK. So that conversation took place on the 28th?
A. Correct. The only conversation about 15 gifts and the subpoena, really -- yes.
A JUROR. And on that same day, he gave you Christmas gifts.
A JUROR. What was your thinking at that time about that? Did that concern you or ...
A. No. ...
A JUROR. Did you -- what did you plan to do with those gifts? Did it cross your mind ... that you should maybe give some of them to your attorney as responsive to the subpoena or ...
A JUROR. Going back to your conversation with Linda Tripp ...
... If you had to put it, like percentage-wise, what you told her as being truthful and not truthful, what percentage will be not truthful?
A: ... Before December of `97, I'd say 95 percent accurate. There were some things that I didn't tell her, but I usually pretty much told her everything.
A JUROR: You started talking to her when? In `95 or `96?
A. The relationship, I told her in November of `96. After the election.
JUROR: Okay. So from November '96 to December `97 --
A. Pretty truthful.
JUROR: And then after '97?
... (PROSECUTOR) ... Are you not telling her things or are you saying things to her that are inaccurate? ...
A. Well, I don't remember the exact situations or the times that I didn't tell her something, if she had asked me about it, I would have been inaccurate about what I said.
... Q. So there's kind of a blending of those two concepts.
(PROSECUTOR): And, again, to clarify, did you ever lie about your sexual relationship with the President?
... A JUROR: So after `97, then ...
A. After December `97, I don't even know how to -- how to put a percentage to that.
JUROR: Any truth at all after `97?
A. Yes. There were some truths in December of `97. There certainly were some true statements, but there were a lot of untrue statements. Probably the untrue statements stick out in my mind more because they caused so much trouble.
JUROR: Which ones stick out in your mind as having been untruthful?
A. Stuff about my mom. Just -- a lot of different things about my mom. That I had -- that I told Mr. Jordan I wouldn't sign the affidavit until I got a job. That was definitely a lie. ...
JUROR: Did you tell Linda Tripp at any time that you had heard or understood that people don't go to jail for perjury in a civil case?
A. Yes, I believe I think I said that. ...
A JUROR. Did anyone other than your attorney ever suggest to you that perjury in a civil case would not be prosecuted?
... A. No.
... (PROSECUTOR): ... Did Mr. Jordan ever tell you that?
Q. Did Mr. Carter ever tell you that?
... You had asked me about the relationship and being untruthful and things like that. And I just -- this is something that's sort of been on my mind since this whole thing started. I have never -- I don't -- I certainly believe I have ever told a lie to hurt anybody, that I sort of -- some of the ways in which I grew up, it was -- there were secrets and inherent in a secret is a lie and so I just, you know, I just thought I'd tell you that.
A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky ... I just remember you saying something with Linda Tripp, you know, what was not the truth, okay? And I just remembered, was one of the things that you told her, that you gave your mother the blue dress, one of the untruths or was that true?
A. I don't know if I ever told Linda I gave my mom the blue dress. One of the things I did say was that I gave everything to my mom, so that probably included that and that was not true. I didn't give the evidence to my mom. My mom never hid the dress. ...
JUROR: How much did your mom really know?
A. She knew -- she knew that I was having a relationship with the president. She knew that -- she knew that I was certainly emotional about it and that it made me miserable a lot and that sometimes I was elated and sometimes I was miserable, but I didn't -- you know, I -- I might have said something to her like, "We fooled around," but I -- not -- she didn't know as much as I led Linda to believe she knew. ...
JUROR: ... did you ever tell Linda Tripp that you felt physically at risk?
A. I think so. I think her told her something about -- that -- that -- I said something about Mary Jo what's-her-name.
A. Kopechne. And so -- I really didn't feel threatened, but I was trying to use anything I could to try to convince her not to tell. So that I thought that if she thought I was threatened and that was part of the reason, then she would maybe do the same.
JUROR: So you did not at any time feel that your personal security was at risk from the White House or anyone in the White House?
A. No. I think that maybe there -- there -- maybe once or twice it had crossed my mind in some bizarre way because everybody's heard about the different you know, sure, there's the Marilyn Monroe theory. And so it -- but it was not -- it was not any factor of -- that related to my actions.
JUROR: So any discussion that you had about the whole topic with Linda Tripp would fall into what you were describing before as a little bit of fabrication?
A. Yes. Yes.
(PROSECUTOR): If I could ask a follow-up on that, did your mother ever express any concerns about your safety?
A. I think she might have, but it was sort of the -- I think it was more general. It might have been a more general sense.
... JUROR. At the top of page 7, where you say in your proffer that when Ms. Currie called later that afternoon she said ... that the president had told her Ms. L wanted her to hold on to something for her. Do you remember Betty Currie saying that the president had told her to call?
A. Right now, I don't. I don't remember, but when I wrote this, I was being truthful. ...
JUROR. ... When did you first learn that Linda Tripp had been taping your phone conversations?
A. I believe that I didn't learn the extent to which she had taped my conversations until I read it in the press. I learned that day that she had worn a wire at the lunch and ... that there had been other people, I think, in the restaurant that had been listening in and -- so I knew -- she had -- she had said that -- that -- when I was first apprehended, she was -- she had said that they had done the same thing to her and she tried to hug me and she told me this was the best thing for me to do and -- oh.
(PROSECUTOR). Any other specific questions about that day? I just -- this was a long day. There were a lot of things that ...
JUROR. We want to know about that day. ...
... A. Linda was supposed to go see this new attorney that she had claimed she had gotten and was going to try to sign an affidavit so she paged me in the morning. I called her back and she told me she wanted to meet me before she went to see the attorney. So we planned to meet at the Ritz Carlton in the food court at -- I think it was quarter to one.
She was late. I saw her come down the escalator. And as I -- as I walked toward her, she kind of motioned behind her and Agent (name redacted) and Agent (name redacted) presented themselves to me and ... flashed their badges at me. They told me that I was under some kind of investigation, something had to do with the Paula Jones case. ... they wanted to talk to me and give me a chance, I think, to cooperate, maybe. ...
... I told them I wasn't speaking to them without my attorney.
They told me that that was fine, but I should know I won't be given as much information and won't be able to help myself as much with my attorney there. So I agreed to go. I was so scared.
(The witness begins crying.)
JUROR: So, Monica, did you go to a room with them at that time?
(PROSECUTOR). And what did you do then? Did you ever tell them that you wanted to call your mother?
A. I told them I wanted to talk to my attorney.
Q. Okay. So what happened?
A. And they told me -- Mike came out and introduced himself to me and told me that -- that Janet Reno had sanctioned Ken Starr to investigate my actions in the Paula Jones case, that they -- that they knew that I had signed a false affidavit, they had me on tape saying I had committed perjury ... that I could go to jail for 27 years, they were going to charge me with perjury and obstruction of justice and subornation of perjury and witness tampering and something else.
Q. And you're saying "they," at that point, who was talking to you about that stuff?
Q. Now, when you say you felt bad, because you felt responsible somehow for pulling the president into something?
Q. And is that something that still weighs heavily on you, that you feel responsible?
A. And is it -- do you feel responsible because you told Linda about your relationship?
Q. ... Was there a time then that ... you just waited with the prosecutors until your mother came down?
... They told me they wanted me to cooperate. I asked them what cooperating meant ... and they told me that ... that they had had me on tape saying things from the lunch that I had had with Linda at the Ritz Carlton the other day and ... that I'd have to agree to be debriefed and that I'd have to place calls or wear a wire to see -- to call Betty and Mr. Jordan and possibly the president. ...
Q. And did you tell then you didn't want to do that?
A. Yes. ... I thought, well, what if -- you know, what if I did that and I messed up, if I on purpose -- you know, I envisioned myself in Mr. Jordan's office and sort of trying to motion to him that something had gone wrong. They said that they would be watching to see if it had been an intentional mistake.
Then I wanted to call my mom and they kept telling me that ... I couldn't tell anybody about this, they didn't want anyone to find out. ...
They told me that I could call this number and get another criminal attorney, but I didn't want that and I didn't trust them. Then I just cried for a long time.
A JUROR: All while you were crying, did they keep asking you questions? What were they doing?
A. No. they just sat there. ...
A JUROR: How many hours did this go on?
A. Maybe around two hours or so. ... They kept saying there was this time constraint ... I had to make a decision.
And then Bruce Udolf came in at some point and then -- then Jackie Bennett came in and there were a whole bunch of other people and the room was crowded and he was saying to me, you know, you have to make a decision. I had wanted to call my mom, they weren't going to let me call my attorney. ...
Then Jackie Bennett said, "You're 24, you're smart, you're old enough, you don't need to call your mommy."
And then I said, "Well, I'm letting you know that I'm leaning towards not cooperating." ...
And they had told me before that I could leave whenever I wanted, but ... thought if I left then that they were just going to arrest me.
And so then they told me that I should know that they were planning to prosecute my mom for the things that I had said that she had done.
(The witness begins crying.)
(Witness excused. Witness recalled.) ...
A. Well, the first time when I asked, that I said I wasn't going to talk to them without my lawyer, they told me that if my lawyer was there, they wouldn't give me as much information and I couldn't help myself as much, so that --
A JUROR: Did they ever tell you that you could not call Mr. Carter?
A. No. What they told me was that if I called Mr. Carter, I wouldn't necessarily still be offered an immunity agreement.
A JUROR: And did you feel threatened by that?
A JUROR: And you said they offered you a chance to call another attorney?
A JUROR: And did you take them up on that offer?
A JUROR: Why not?
A. Because I didn't trust them.
A JUROR: I see. And at some point in this meeting, did you -- you did obtain an attorney? Mr. Ginsberg?
A. Well, like at 11:00 that night.
A JUROR: So it was seven hours or eight hours or more later?
A. They -- they finally let me call my mom, so I went to call my mom and then -- and I saw Linda again. She had been shopping or something like that. But I called my mom and then Mike had said that she could call him, so they called her or she called him or something like that and then they agreed to let her come down.
So she took the train and then -- and then he just sort of -- I shut down and I kind of -- you know, I thought maybe I should try and make these people like me, so I tried to be nice and I told jokes and I asked if we could walk around the mall because I couldn't sit in that room any more. And I just --
(PROSECUTOR): So did they let you do that?
A. Mm-hmm. So Mike and Agent (name redacted) took me and we walked around the mall and we ate dinner and then we went back to the room and I read Psalm 21 about a million times. And my mom's train had been -- there were problems with her train and then finally she got there and they told me they were going to want to talk to my mom alone for a little bit, but I got to talk to her.
And I was -- I didn't -- I didn't want to cooperate. I mean, I didn't -- I just kept thinking to myself, well -- well, I'll just say I made it all up, I'll just -- I'll just -- I -- I couldn't imagine -- I couldn't imagine doing this to the president. And I felt so wrong and guilty for having told Linda and that she had done all this.
But -- so then they took my mom into another room for a really long time and she had -- then when she came back, they called my dad. And then we finally -- and then I talked to my dad and then --then -- Ginsberg came on the scene. ...
(PROSECUTOR): Although you were allowed to -- the thing with Frank Carter was that they were afraid he would tell Vernon Jordan? Is that what they expressed to you?
JUROR: Sounds as though they were actively discouraging you from talking to an attorney.
A. ... From Frank Carter, who was my only attorney at that point.
JUROR: And this is the attorney who had helped you with the affidavit.
... When you called your mother, how much were you able to tell her over the phone? Very little or --
A. I was hysterical. She didn't understand what I was saying, but I told her that -- that the FBI had me and there was something with the Paula Jones case and Linda. ... I was screaming that, you know, "They want me to cooperate and I don't want to cooperate, don't make me cooperate, don't make we do this," and she -- she said it was OK, don't worry, don't worry. ...
JUROR: And what were you thinking about Linda at this time?
A. ... What I was thinking at that point was that they had -- that they had listened in on our conversation on the phone and that then they came to her and said she was in trouble for something and that then she let them listen in on this lunch conversation. ...
And then she said, "This is the best thing for you," as if I was left to believe that she had -- this was somehow something she had done and that she was trying to help me.
And I thought, "Why did she tell them? Why didn't she just say it was nonsense, it wasn't true? Why did she tell them that I had had this relationship with him?"
... I didn't know how the Paula Jones people had gotten my name and I thought maybe they had tapped my phone or maybe they had broken into my computer and read my e-mails.
I didn't know how I had gotten involved in this case and so I had said to Linda, "Well, if they have me on tape, I'll just say it's not me. I'll just say it's not me. I'll deny it. I'll deny everything."
JUROR. So they took pictures.
A. Right. So they said, "We have you on tape saying that you'd deny it and we have pictures to prove that you were there." So ...
JUROR. During this time in the hotel with them, did you feel threatened?
JUROR. Did you feel that they had set a trap?
A. ... I did and ... I didn't understand why they -- why they had to trap me into coming there ...
(PROSECUTOR): So you didn't know what would happen if you left.
A. No. And then it wasn't until my mom was there that Mike Emmick cleared it up and said to my mom, "Well, it's not that we'll arrest you tonight when you leave the hotel." You know. Because I didn't -- I didn't know.
Q. And you didn't end up cooperating that evening.
A, No, I didn't. Because -- well --
JUROR. I think that's all the questions on that topic. There is one other question. Going back to Monday night and the president's speech, what did you want or expect to hear from the president?
A. I think what I wanted and expected were two different things. I had -- I had been hurt when he referred to me as "that woman" in January, but I was also glad. I was glad that he made that statement and I felt that was the best thing for him to do, was to deny this. And -- but I had been hurt. I mean, it showed me how angry he was with me and I understood that. And his -- the people who work for him have trashed me, they claim they haven't said anything about me, they have smeared me and they called me stupid, they said I couldn't write, they said I was a stalker, they said I wore inappropriate clothes, I mean, you all know.
So I just -- my family had been maligned because of a lot of their tactics and I felt that -- I had wanted him to say that I was a nice, decent person and that he was sorry this had happened because I -- I tried to do as much as I could to protect him.
... I'm only 24 and so I felt that I -- this has been hard for me and this has been hard on my family and I just wanted him to take back -- by saying something nice, he would have taken back every disgusting, horrible thing that anyone has said about me from that White House. And that was what I wanted.
JUROR: Monica, none of us in this room are perfect. We all fall and we fall several times a day. The only difference between my age and when I was your age is now I get up faster. If I make a mistake and fall, I get up and brush myself off. I used to stay there a while after a mistake. That's all I have to say. ...
JUROR: ... Monica, is there anything that you would like to add to your prior testimony ...
A. I would. I think because of the public nature of how this investigation has been and what the charges aired, that I would just like to say that no one ever asked me to lie and I was never promised a job for my silence.
And that I'm sorry. I'm really sorry for everything that's happened. (The witness begins to cry.) And I hate Linda Tripp.
... JUROR: And I also want to say that even though right now you feel a lot of hate for Linda Tripp, but you need to move on and leave her where she is because whatever goes around comes around.
... (PROSECUTOR): And just to clarify, and I know we've discussed this before, despite your feelings about Linda Tripp, have you lied to this grand jury about anything with regard to Linda Tripp because you don't like her?
A. ... No. It wouldn't have been necessary to lie. I think she's done enough on her own, so -- ...
FOREPERSON: Basically what we wanted to leave with, because this will probably be your last visit to us, I hope, I hope I'm not going to have to do this any more and I hope you won't have to come here any more, but we wanted to offer you a bouquet of good wishes that includes luck, success, happiness and blessings.
A. Thank you. (The witness begins to cry.) I appreciate all of your understanding for this situation and your -- your ability to open your heart and your mind and -- and your soul. I appreciate that.
... FOREPERSON: We'd like to excuse you and thank you very much for your testimony.
A. Thank you.
(This ended the second day of Lewinsky's testimony.)
© Copyright 1998 The Associated Press