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From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 10

The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.

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Q: When you showed Mr. Jordan the subpoena, did he make any remark about any of the things that were called for?

A: Yes. When I mentioned to him, I think, about the hat pin, he said, "Oh, don't worry about it. This is a vanilla subpoena, this is a standard subpoena," something like that. Generic subpoena, maybe.

Q: Did you know what he meant, a vanilla or standard subpoena that asks for hat pins?

A: Well, what I understood that to mean was that -- that what he was trying to say is there was nothing out of the ordinary about this subpoena.

Q: I see. I guess what I'm trying to get at is do you think he was trying to imply that all subpoenas ask for that or that all subpoenas in the Paula Jones case asked for that or all subpoenas --what was he -- from your point of view, what was he trying to convey?

A: I think what he -- I think what he was trying to convey was stop worrying, that this is not something out of the -- you know, out of the realm of possibility of what might be in a subpoena.

Q: All right. Were you reassured by that?

A: A little. I -- I sort of felt that he wasn't -- I mean, he didn't really understand what I was saying.

Q: All right. Did you have any discussion with him about letting the President know that you'd been subpoenaed?

A: Yes. I asked Mr. Jordan to inform the President.

Q: How did you ask? How often? How vigorously?

A: I -- I mean, I asked him to -- to please make sure that he told the President. He said he was going to see the President that night, so --

Q: All right. Did the subject of a possible sexual relationship between you and the President come up in the conversation?

A: Yes, it did.

Q: Tell us how it came up.

A: Mr. Jordan said to me that there -- "There are two important questions" or "There are two important -- " I think, "Two important questions that are related to the case: Did you have sex with the President, you know, or did he ask?" And I said no to both of those.

Q: What did you interpret him to be asking when he asked you those questions?

A: Well, I thought he -- I guess -- can I step back for a minute?

Q: Sure.

A: Up until a point that we'll get to, which is December 31st, I sort of -- mainly, I think, from my discussions with Linda, I was under the impression that -- that Mr. Jordan kind of knew with a wink and a nod that I was having a relationship with the President, that it was never -- he and I never discussed it, but I thought it might be possible.

I'm, you know, a young woman, sort of coming to see him, the President's mentioned me. But I also was sort of under this influence of Linda saying to me, "Of course he knows. Of course he knows. Of course he knows."

So when he asked me those questions, I thought he was asking me, saying essentially "What are you going to say?" not necessarily asking me directly what -- you know, "What are the answers to these questions?" More "What are you going to reply in regard to the case?"


Q: Now, was your interpretation of his questions based entirely on your assumption about what he knew? Or was it based in part on how he asked the questions?

A: I think it was based more in part on my assumptions of what he knew.

Q: Was there anything unusual or suggestive about how he asked the questions?

A: No.

Q: And how did you answer the questions?

A: No and no.

Q: Okay. Did you try to make it clear to him at all that there was more to the story than just no and no?

A: Not at that point.

Q: At that time, did you make arrangements to meet with the attorney who you would get, Mr. Frank Carter?

A: Yes. After Mr. Jordan made the arrangements with Mr. Carter, he told me to be at his office at -- I think 11:OO or 10:30 on Monday.

Q: All right. How did the meeting with Mr. Jordan end? Was there any reference to a hug?

A: Oh, yes. I'm sorry.

Q: That's okay.

A: When I was leaving, I asked him if he would give the President a hug for me. I bugged him again about making sure he told the President. And so he said, "I don't hug men." I said, "Well, okay."

Q: All right.

A: But --

Q: All right. Did you call Linda Tripp afterwards?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: What was the purpose of your call?

A: In a -- to let her know that I had been subpoenaed.

Q: Tell us how that conversation went.

A: It probably would be impossible for anyone who didn't --who has listened to that tape to follow. I was beyond paranoid.

I had no idea how I had gotten onto the witness list and then, of course, been subpoenaed and I was thinking at that point that maybe my phone was tapped or someone had read my e-mails or something. But in thinking that my phone might be tapped, I sort of tried to explain to this to Linda that I had been subpoenaed in a veiled fashion.

Q: How did you do that? What do you mean?

A: I used different cover stories. I think like it was a movie or it was a book, trying to discuss things. I think I said something -- "I received the flowers," trying to intimate that I had received the subpoena. So --

Q: Eventually, did you drop the sort of disguised way of talking and just talk about the subpoena, or do you recall?

A: I don't believe I did. I don't really remember, though.

Q: How were things left with Linda?

A: She was having a party the next day, so we made plans that -- or I suggested that I come early and we could discuss this and that I would help her set up for her dumb party. I'm sorry.

Q: Her dumb party? All right. Well, we'll skip the dumb party for now.

A: I'm sorry.

MR. EMMICK: That's all right.

MR. WISENBERG: I have a quick question.

MR. EMMICK: Okay. A dumb party question?

MR. WISENBERG: Not about the dumb party.

MR. EMMICK: All right.


Q: When you were doing the flowers bit, the book bit, how was she -- you're trying to speak in code to her, how was she responding?

A: I don't really remember. I just sort of remember her not understanding and me being frustrated. "Hello? Understand. We just talked about this."

A JUROR: Excuse me. May I ask a question?

MR. EMMICK: Sure. Absolutely. Yes.

A JUROR: Did you ever find out how the Paula Jones lawyers knew about the hat pin, et cetera?

THE WITNESS: I -- from what I've read in the press, yes.

A JUROR: But just from any other source? Did you ever suspect maybe Linda or --

THE WITNESS: I had -- I came to start to suspect her, but not in any way that -- that it really has turned out to be. Not to that degree.

A JUROR: Thank you.


Q: Let's turn our attention, then, to December 22nd, which is the day that you met with Frank Carter and I think you had said that you were going to meet with Vernon earlier.

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: Tell us about that. The Vernon part.

A: Okay. With all the details?

Q: Well, first, when were you supposed to meet with Vernon and then did you place another call to him?

A: Right. I -- I -- I asked -- I called on the morning of the 22nd to see if I could come to see Mr. Jordan earlier. And I was -- I was a little concerned. I thought maybe he didn't really understand or -- fully understand what it was that was happening here with me being subpoenaed and what this really meant. So I came to see Mr. Jordan earlier and I also wanted to find out if he had in fact told the President that I had been subpoenaed.

Q: Right.

A: Which I found out he did. So I -- so I told Mr. Jordan that -- I said I was concerned that maybe -- that someone had listened in on phone calls and Mr. Jordan said, "Well, you know, so what? The President's allowed to call people."

And I said, "Well, we've had phone sex."

And so Mr. Jordan said, "Well, what's phone sex?"

And so I said, "Well, you know what phone sex is."

And he said, "No, I don't. I'm just an old man. I don't know what phone sex is."

And it was kind of this -- discussion that way.

Q: Did you discuss the hat pin?

A: We didn't discuss the hat pin, but I brought -- I had put together sort of an assortment of things that I was planning to hand over to Mr. Carter as being in response to the subpoena, sort of things that I would -- considered -- gifts, being the Christmas cards that I had received from the White House, I had a copy of the President's book, "Hope and History," which he had signed to me which had a very innocuous sort of inscription. And I think brought some innocuous pictures with me. So I showed those to Mr. Jordan.

Q: What did you say about those items?

A: I know that -- I think I was a little more specific in my proffer about what -- I mean, what I remember saying now was that --you know, that I sort of showed him that this is what I was going to respond to for the subpoena.

Q: Well, did you bring everything that could have responded to the subpoena that day?

A: No. No.

Q: Did you try to convey to Mr. Jordan the fact that it wasn't everything?

A: I think I might have.

Q: And do you remember how you would have conveyed it? Would it have been very expressly or would it have been more impliedly?

A: More impliedly.


Q: Did you tell Mr. Jordan that the President had indeed given you a hat pin?

A: I did, but I had told him that on Friday and that was what prompted the sort of "this is a vanilla response."

MR. EMMICK: Let me show you the written proffer --


MR. EMMICK: -- and see if that helps you recall or if you know whether or not when you wrote it it's accurate.

What we're looking at is the top of page 6 -- everyone else has a copy.

THE WITNESS: Okay. There's some spelling mistakes.

MR. EMMICK: Why don't I just read out loud. This paragraph starts, "On the day Mr. Jordan drove Ms. Lewinsky to Mr. Carter's office, she showed Mr. Jordan the items she was producing in response to the subpoena. Ms. Lewinsky believes she made it clear this was not everything she had that could respond to the subpoena, but she thought it was enough to satisfy. Mr. Jordan made no comment about whether or not what Ms. Lewinsky brought was right or wrong.

Mr. Jordan drove Ms. Lewinsky to Mr. Carter's office, introduced them and then left.


Q: Now, having read that to you, does that refresh your recollection about what was said to him?

A: I think I would have implied it.

Q: Yes.

A: That this wasn't everything. I -- I don't really remember if I specifically said -- and from reading this, it doesn't make me think I necessarily specifically said, "This isn't everything, but it's enough to satisfy," but I could have said that.

Q: At the time you wrote this, were you trying to be completely truthful and accurate?

A: I was trying to be completely -- yes, I was completely truthful and accurate. I'm just also while I'm reading this now, it doesn't necessarily indicate to me that -- that what I'm saying here is sort of a direct quote of what I said.

Q: Do you remember what Mr. Jordan's reaction was? There it's written that he didn't indicate whether he thought it was right or wrong, but more generally, how did he react when you tried to convey to him that this may not be everything?'

A: There were often times when I was with Mr. Jordan that he would have no reaction at all. He would kind of do this "Mmmph" thing.

Q: I'm not sure how the court reporter is going to get that. Is that a grunt?

A: And so -- I remember feeling in general with Mr. Jordan and this subject matter, just not knowing. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Is this clear? And not really ever getting much of a reaction from him.

Q: Did you take from his lack of reaction that he did understand or was it still ambiguous in your mind?

A: I think sometimes I thought he understood and sometimes I thought it was ambiguous.

Q: Okay. Did the subject of phone sex come up again in your conversation with Mr. Jordan?

A: Aside from what I mentioned before?

Q: Yes. Did you explain to him what phone sex was at some point?

A: I think it -- at -- I don't think I said it. He might have said -- know, is it -- uh -- this is embarrassing. Hmm. I think he -- it's hard. I think he -- uh -- might have given some suggestion as to what he thought phone sex was and I agreed. Is that --

Q: That's fine.

A: -- fair?

Q: That's fine.

A: By this time, had you expected the President to call you?

A: Mm-hmm. Yes.

MR. EMMICK: I'm sorry?

A JUROR: Before you go on, can you ask her what does that mean?

MR. EMMICK: What does phone sex --

A JUROR: No, what did he say?

MR. EMMICK: I think the grand juror is asking for more detail.

THE WITNESS: If I remember correctly, I believe that he said --or maybe I said something like -- you know, "He's taking care of business on one end and I'm taking care of business on another." Does that --


Q: Do you remember which one of you said it?

A: When I'm saying that now, I think I said it, because that sounds more familiar to me. Does that answer your question?

A JUROR: (Nods affirmatively.)


Q: Did you expect the President to call you?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Is that why you were bugging or asking Vernon so much about whether he had told the President?

A: I don't know. Maybe.

Q: All right.

A: I think I just wanted to make sure the President knew.


Q: That you had been subpoenaed.

A: Right. Because I was supposed to call -- you know, in the event that I was subpoenaed, I was supposed to have called Betty and -- so --


Q: I'm going to ask a question that will suggest what assumptions you were making about what Vernon knew or didn't. Why would you feel comfortable talking with Vernon Jordan about phone sex?

A: I wasn't comfortable talking to Vernon Jordan about phone sex.

Q: Okay.


MR. WISENBERG: Questions?



Q: Did you say on the 22nd that you showed to Vernon Jordan the gifts you bringing to Frank Carter?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. Was a hat pin among the things you showed to Vernon Jordan?

A: No.

Q: But you had indicated to him on the 19th that the President had given you a hat pin.

A: Yes.

MR. WISENBERG: Thank you.


Q: At some point, you went to Frank Carters's.

A: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Q: Tell us what happened when you got to Frank Carter's.

A: We arrived at Mr. Carter's office and Mr. Jordan and I sat down on the sofa. Mr. Carter came out. Mr. Jordan introduced us and left.

Q: In your discussions with Mr. Carter, what was the major point that you were trying to make? What was the big thing you were trying to convey to Mr. Carter?

A: That there was absolutely no reason why I should have been subpoenaed in this case.

Q: Okay. And --

A: And that I certainly did not have a relationship with the President.

Q: You said that to him.

A: I don't think I said those words, but that was what I was trying to convey, and certainly when asked those questions, that's what I answered.

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