From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 11 The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.
Q: Did you discuss with him how you could get out of the deposition?
Q: Tell us what you talked about. Maybe that would be the easier way to go.
A: Okay. I told Mr. Carter I really didn't want to be dragged into this, I didn't -- I thought Paula Jones' claim was bunk and I didn't want to be associated with the case. believe I suggested maybe that I could -- maybe I asked him if I could sign an affidavit or is that something to do.
He said that the first step -- to hold off on that and that the first step is he would try to talk to the attorneys for Paula Jones and find out what it is, why they're subpoenaing me and where it is that they're going with this and that maybe one option might be is he could arrange for them to interview me, just kind of do a brief interview, versus a deposition.
Q: Did you discuss with him the subpoena insofar as it requested items? Did you, for example, go through and talk about what items were called for?
A: Yes, we did. Yes. And I said no to everything until we got to the gifts, and then I sort of turned over what it was that I had brought with me that I thought responded to the gifts. And that was it.
Q: Was there any mention made by either of you of Bob Bennett?
Q: Tell us what was said.
A: I requested of Mr. Carter that he get in touch with Mr. Bennett and just to be in touch with him and to let him know that I had been subpoenaed in this case and I didn't know why.
Q: Why did you request that Mr. Carter contact Mr. Bennett?
A: Because I thought in the -- how do I explain this? Sort of in the story or role, the story that I was giving to Mr. Carter and being a low level political appointee and, in general, even if I hadn't been a low level political appointee, I thought it was probably appropriate to align myself with the President's side, being that that's whose side I was on and there was no question in my mind.
Q: Is another way of saying that you were trying to send a message to the President or to Mr. Bennett?
A: Not to the President. He knew. I mean, the President knew, you know? So --
Q: So it was more a message to Mr. Bennett?
A: I just -- to me, that seemed -- I mean, I think -- you have to look at this from the point of view that I was a political appointee. And so --
Q: What does that imply for you?
A: For me, that means that the reason you're in this job is you work for this administration and that you're politically aligned with this administration and everything you do is in the best interests of the administration and, ultimately, the President. And that's where your goal and your focus should be.
Q: How were things left? What was he going to do and what were you going to next?
A: Mr. Carter was going to get in touch with attorneys for Paula Jones and get in touch with Mr. Bennett. And he was going to send me a retainer letter. And we'd be in touch.
Q: Let me then ask you the following. You had earlier indicated that the President said that he had a Christmas present for you.
A: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Q: Did you ever make contact with Betty Currie in order to make arrangements to pick up the present?
Q: Tell us about that.
A: I called Betty after Christmas to see how she was doing and find out how her holiday was and to ask her -- or to let her know that the President had mentioned to me he had a Christmas present for me and, you know, to touch base with me to see if he -- what he wanted to do, if he wanted to get together.
So she called me back and told me to come to the White House at 8:30 in the morning on Sunday, the 28th of December.
Q: Did you?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: All right. Betty waved you in?
Q: At about what time was it, if you can remember?
Q: When you got there, what happened?
A: I think the President was already there. He was just coming to the Oval Office and Betty and the President and I were in the Oval Office and this was the first time I got to meet Buddy. So we played with Buddy in the office and he was running around the carpet. And I had brought a small Christmas present for Buddy. And so the three of us were just talking and goofing off. And then the President and I went into the back study and he gave me my Christmas presents.
Q: How long were you in the back study with the President?
A: Maybe about 45 minutes to an hour.
Q: What was the Christmas present or presents that he got for you?
A: Everything was packaged in a big Black Dog -- or big canvass bag from the Black Dog store in Martha's Vineyard. And he got me a marble bear's head carving, sort of -- you know, a little sculpture, I guess, maybe.
Q: Was that the item from Vancouver?
A: Yes. Then he got me a big Rockettes blanket from Christmas of '95 or '96, I think. He got me a Black Dog stuffed animal that had a little Black Dog T-shirt on it. He got me a small little box of chocolates, cherry chocolates, and then he got me some sunglasses that were a joke because I had -- I had teased him for a long time about the different sunglasses that he was wearing in public. And so then I bought him a normal pair of sunglasses, and so we had just sort of had -- this was a long running joke with us, so he bought me these really funny looking sunglasses and we both were putting them on and joking around goofing off.
So -- I'm trying to think what else. Can I look at the list?
MR. EMMICK: Sure. Feel free.
THE WITNESS: Oh. He got me a pin that had the most of my Christmas presents were sort of New York themed, so he got me a pin that had the New York skyline on it. I think that's it. Well, it's a lot, so -- not just that's it.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: Now, you had mentioned earlier that you were concerned about the fact that the subpoena covered this hat pin.
Q: Did you discuss that concern with President Clinton?
A: Yes. We -- we really spent maybe about five -- no more than ten minutes talking about the Paula Jones case on this day and --do you want me to talk about the hat pin or that period of time?
Q: The whole period of time, I suppose.
A: I brought up the subject of the case because I was concerned
about how I had been brought into the case and been put on the witness list. So I asked him how he thought I got put on the witness list and he told me he thought that maybe it was that woman from the summer with Kathleen Willey, which I knew to be Linda Tripp, or maybe -- he said maybe some of the uniformed -- maybe the uniformed officers.
We talked about that. I mentioned that I had been concerned about the hat pin being on the subpoena and he said that that had sort of concerned him also and asked me if I had told anyone that he had given me this hat pin and I said no.
Q: That was false.
A: Correct. Yes. When in fact I had told people about the hat pin.
A: Let's see. And then at some point I said to him, "Well, you know, should I -- maybe I should put the gifts away outside my house somewhere or give them to someone, maybe Betty." And he sort of said -- I think he responded, "I don't know" or "Let me think about that." And left that topic.
Q: When you said "the gifts, what did you mean by "the gifts"?
A: I meant all the gifts that he had given me.
Q: All right. Do you think that you're the one who came up with Betty's name?
A: I'm not 100 percent sure, but when I received the call from Betty, I wasn't surprised that it was Betty calling, so that's what leads me to believe that I might have suggested it.
Q: Okay. Did you discuss with the president the fact that you were planning to sign an affidavit?
A: I might have mentioned it, but I don't think -- we really didn't spend very much time on this subject.
Q: All right. So you walked in without many gifts, you were going to walk out with a bag of gifts.
Q: Did it strike you as unusual that when you had a subpoena calling for you to produce gifts the President is giving you a bag of gifts.
A: At the time, it didn't strike me as unusual.
Q: Okay. And why is that?
A: I never thought about it. I mean, I was -- I was -- I had struggled for a long time before the 28th -- or I should just say -- I guess a few days before the 28th, that if I was going to see the president, if I should tell him or not that Linda knew. And I decided not to.
And so I -- I thought this might be the last time I saw him before I went to new York and I wanted it to be a really nice visit, so I was -- I --- having decided not to tell him about Linda, I kind of didn't even want to go too far there in getting mired down in the discussion of the case.
Q: All right. When you left the White House, did anything unusual happen with respect to your E-pass?
A: Yes. Well, I had a visitor's pass.
Q: Visitor's E-pas, I guess.
A: Is that what --
Q: A visitor's pass?
A: Visitor's -- I don't know. I know it is a visitor's pass. Betty escorted me out and I realized that I left the pass in the office, so Betty told me that she would call down to the guard station and let them know that I was fine and I had just left the pass somewhere.
Q: Do you remember what gate you used when you left the White House?
A: I believe it was the southwest gate.
Q: Did you hear from Betty later that day?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Were you surprised to hear from her?
A: No. I mean, I wasn't surprised that I was hearing from Betty. I think I was a little surprised to sort of get the nature of this phone call when the President could have just said right then and there, "Well, yeah, I think, you know, why don't you give them to Betty, that's a good idea." But I wasn't terribly surprised. No.
Q: What did she say?
A: She said, "I understand you have something to give me." Or, "The President said you have something to give me." Along those lines.
Q: How long after you had left the White House did Betty call you?
A: Several hours.
Q: When she said something along the lines of "I understand you have something for me," or "The President says you have something for me," what did you understand her to mean?
A: The gifts.
A: Kind of -- what I was reminded of then a little bit was jumping all the way back to the July 14th incident where I was supposed to call Betty the next day but not really get into details with her, that this was maybe along those same lines.
Q: That actually anticipates my next question.
Q: Did you feel any need to explain to her what was going to happen?
Q: What arrangements did you make for transfer of the something?
A: I think we discussed some things and Betty mentioned she was on the way to the hospital to visit her mom and she'd swing by and, you know, pick up whatever it was I was supposed to give her.
Q: Now, at the time you had that conversation, were you already packing up the gifts at all?
Q: When was she going to come by, then? That day?
Q: What did you do after the phone call ended?
A: I put all the gifts that he had given me on my bed and I got a big box from The Gap and went through each item and decided if I needed to give it to them or not.
Q: Can you explain what you mean by that?
A: It sort of was a difficult -- I -- I wasn't sure if I was going to get this box back, so I didn't want to give everything in the event that I didn't get the box back for some reason. And I kept out some innocuous things and I kept out- the -- really the most --the most sentimental gift he had given me was the book, the "Leaves of Grass" book, so -- and it was just -- it's beautiful and it meant a lot to me, so I kept that out.
Q: What other -- it sounds to me like you had one category of more sentimental gifts that you kept out of the box.
Q: And kept for yourself. What other items were in that category, other than the "Leaves of Grass"?
A: Not necessarily sentimental ones, but just -- I think I kept out the marble bear head, the bag, the canvas bag, the blanket, the sunglasses, the chocolates. And I think that's it. Oh, wait. And I might have kept out some of the Martha's Vineyard stuff that I had gotten in the fall.
Q: Those were items that you've recently turned over to our office.
Q: Which items did you put into the box? If you remember.
A: The hat pin, the pin that I had received that day for Christmas, a pin that he had given me for my birthday, a picture that he had signed for me for my birthday that I had framed, a picture he had signed for me of him wearing the first tie I gave him.
Q: Any other Black Dog items?
A: I think there was a Black Dog hat that I put in there. And I'm not -- I'm not really sure what else was in there. Oh, I also put the copies that I had left of the Valentine's Day ad that I had put in the paper for him.
Q: The Romeo and Juliet quote?
Q: All right. Did Betty come by?
A: Yes, she did. I met her outside.
Q: How did you know when she was going to come by? Was there a prearranged time she was going to come by or did she call you from --
A: I think she called me on her way out.
Q: You met her outside, you had the box with you?
A: Mm-hmm. I had taped it up and I wrote "Please do not throw away" on it.
Q: Were you concerned that she might throw it away?
A: Mm-hmm. Yes. Sorry.
Q: Okay. Let me just ask you some questions. Did you ever discuss with her the contents of the box?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did she ever ask about the contents of the box?
Q: Did she ever say anything indicating that she knew from a prior discussion the contents of the box?
A: Not -- no, not that I remember.
Q: Sounds like it was a short conversation.
A: We talked about her mom a bit and Christmas. I think maybe I had elaborated on what I got for Christmas from him.
Q: Now, you could have just thrown these items out, rather than putting them in a box. Why didn't you- just throw them out?
A: Because I -- they meant a lot to me.
Q: Okay. You could have given the items to someone else, a friend of yours, Ashley Raines, or to your mother or just hidden them somewhere. Why didn't you do that?
A: I think -- I've come to sort of see this now. I don't know that I necessarily saw it then, but I feel now a little bit that me turning over some of these things was a little bit of an assurance to the President or reassurance that, you know, that everything was okay.
Q: In your mind, then, were you giving these items not just to Betty, but really to the President as well, in a manner of speaking?
A: I think that was even more directly what I thought it was. Not that they were going to be in his possession, but that he would understand whatever it was I gave to Betty and that that might make him feel a little bit better.
Q: Did Betty say where she was going to put the box of gifts?
A: I think she said she was going to keep them in a closet. Or, you know, she'd keep the box in a closet.
A: You asked me -- never mind.
Q: The gifts. Right. I understood. I understood. All right. What I'd like to do now is ask a few questions
MR. WISENBERG: Mike?
MR. EMMICK: Yes?
WISENBERG: Before you leave that topic, I have a few on that. Do you mind?
MR. EMMICK: No. Not at all.
BY MR. WISENBERG:
Q: You've said here today, Ms. Lewinsky, and I think you told us earlier in some of your sessions with us, that you were -- the non-innocuous items were going to go to Frank Carter and --
MR. EMMICK: You mean the innocuous items.
WISENBERG: What did I say?
MR. EMMICK: The not innocuous items.
WISENBERG: Boy. Thank you. I stand corrected.
BY MR. WISENBERG:
Q: The innocuous items were going to go to Frank Carter, the non-innocuous items were not, but that one of the reasons, one of the criterion for stuff that didn't even go in the Betty Currie box that you would keep would be sentimental value.
Q: Is that -- have I described that accurately?
A: Sort of.
Q: Okay. How not sort of?
A: I didn't really give any gifts to Mr. Carter. Nothing that I turned over to Mr. Carter was a gift from the President. And I think the way you described the dividing of the actual gifts was sort of innocuous, you know, not innocuous -- sentimental value, I think that was more accurate.
Q: Well, as between the gifts you put in the box and the gifts you kept?
Q: All right. How would you describe today the difference between the two? I just want to make sure I understand, between the ones you kept and the ones you put in the Betty box.
A: You know, I don't have a perfect memory of what the criteria was at the time. I know I kept the book out because that was the most sentimental thing to me. And I believe that the things I put-in the box - were -- also in the box was a dress he gave me from Martha's Vineyard, so the things that went into the box were, I think, more along the lines of some of the things that really complied with the subpoena, that were maybe specifically named, although I think books might have been specifically named in the subpoena, but I kept the "Leaves of Grass."
Q: They complied with the subpoena, but they're going to Betty Currie.
Q: Now, my question is, and I've asked you this before, but I want to ask you in front of the grand jury, since you were basically trying to keep some sentimental things but you told us that the hat pin was sentimental to you, why is the hat pin going into the Betty box?
A: Because the hat pin was the alarm of the subpoena, so -- I -- I -- to me, it seemed logical that putting the hat pin in the box -- I mean, it was what had been named in the subpoena.
MR. EMMICK: All right. Should we take a break?
THE FOREPERSON: Yes, we should.
THE WITNESS: Oh, thank goodness.
MR. EMMICK: Okay. All right. Ten minutes.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
THE FOREPERSON: Ten minutes.
(Witness excused. Witness recalled;)
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