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From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 12

The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.

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MR. EMMICK: All right. Do we have a quorum?


MR. EMMICK: Any unauthorized persons present?

THE FOREPERSON: None at all.

THE WITNESS: Let me guess. You're going to remind me I'm still under oath.

THE FOREPERSON: There you go.

THE WITNESS: Fast learner.

Q: Ms. Lewinsky, this is what we're going to do. We're going to go over some questions that we'd like to ask and then we're going to turn our attention to the December 31st meeting, the breakfast meeting with Vernon Jordan.

A: Okay.

Q: Let's go to questions first. One question is Betty comes by and gets this box of gifts. Is there any other way Betty would have known to call and pick up this box of gifts except for the President asking her to?

A: The only thing I can think of is if he had asked someone else to ask Betty.

Q: Do you have any reason to think that happened?

A: No, but, I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know -- I don't know what he said, how -- maybe he left her a note. I mean, I don't know. So --

Q: Another way of asking it is did you-tell someone else about this and they might have asked Betty?

A: No.


Q: Did you think it as a coincidence that she called you?

A: No.


Q: Let me ask you a couple of questions about the December 20th dumb party.

A: Okay.

Q: Okay? First, why is it a dumb party.

A: Oh. Really? You want me to answer that?

Q: Yes.

A: Well, because it was Linda Tripp's party and -- well, that should be enough, but just that I got there and I got stuck having to do all this stuff and I had really wanted to talk to her about the predicament we were in and -- I now look back on it and just -- she had spent all this money on food and a month before she had had no money for the bus and was trying to sell her clothes and somehow she had $500 to spend on food and had money to spend on presents underneath her tree and it was just dumb.

Q: Let's focus on the discussions you had with Linda at the dumb party or before the dumb party about the situation.

A: I really didn't sort of get into, I think, a full discussion with her until after -- well, until I was leaving and I asked her to walk me out to my car.

Q: Let's talk first then about the efforts you made to talk with her about the subpoena in the house. Did you try to?

A: Probably. It was -- I got there maybe -- the -- I think the party was supposed to start around 7:30 and I got there at 5:00 and she had made no food, had done nothing. (sic) mean, she just had this fridge stuffed with food. So I was trying to help prepare all this stuff. There was a lot more work to do than I thought there would be and then her daughter had this obsession with vacuuming that night, so there were just a lot of people and I don't really remember trying to get a chance.

I may have tried to or sort of said "I need to talk to you," kind of a thing, but I don't recall having any discussions with her before the party.

Q: Okay. And then you mentioned that you were able to talk to her a little bit outside, I think you said?

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: Tell us about that.

A: The main -- the main feeling I had at that point, once I had received my subpoena was that -- that now she didn't need to worry about denying that she knew anything about this relationship, because I was going to deny it under oath as well.

And so sort of just -- I figured that conversation would kind of just be mapping out what our next steps would be. But it ended up being much shorter and I -- she looked at the subpoena -- excuse me --sorry -- and I think she -- she kept talking about how weird, "Isn't the hat pin strange? Isn't it strange that they're asking about the hat pin?"

And we talked about that. And I think that -- I -- I was -- I was -- I don't think that I was left with the feeling that she was going to continue on this path of insisting she would rat on me. So -- is that clear? I'm sorry -- no? Okay. When I left that night, I felt a little more -- I think I felt a little more reassured that she and I would be saying the same thing in the Paula Jones case. Is that -- okay. But I wasn't 100 percent sure and I think that we left it that we'd have some more discussions about this.

Q: Okay. One of the things we wanted to get back to was the whole situation on the 28th where there's a subpoena that calls for you to turn over gifts and the President is giving you gifts.

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: What do you think the President is thinking when he is giving you gifts when there's a subpoena covering the gifts? I mean, does he think in any way, shape or form that you're going to be turning these gifts over?


A: You know, I can't answer what he was thinking, but to me, it was -- there was never a question in my mind and I -- from everything he said to me, I never questioned him, that we were ever going to do anything but keep this private, so that meant deny it and that meant do -- take whatever appropriate steps needed to be taken, you know, for that to happen, meaning that if I had turned over every gift he had given me -- first of all, the point of the affidavit and the point of everything was to try to avoid a deposition, so where I'd have to sort of -- you know, I wouldn't have to lie as much as I would necessarily in an affidavit, how I saw it.

So by turning over all these gifts, it would at least prompt them to want to question me about what kind of friendship I had with the President and they would want to speculate and they'd leak it and my name would be trashed and he would be in trouble. So --

Q: So your impression, then, was in the same way that the two of you were going to deny the relationship, you would also deny or conceal the gifts that were personal that passed between you.

A: And the phone call -- I mean, I think that it was everything. I think it was kind of -- at least for me, I don't know what he did, for me, this had to be thought through. You know, I had to anticipate everything that might happen and make sure -- you know --

Q: You did what was necessary.

A: Exactly.


Q: Although, Ms. Lewinsky, I think what is sort of -- it seems a little odd and, I guess, really the grand jurors wanted your impression of it, was on the same day that you're discussing basically getting the gifts to Betty to conceal hem, he's giving you a new set of gifts.

A: You know, I have come recently to look at that as sort of a strange situation, I think, in the course of the past few weeks, but at the time, I was -- you know, I was in love with him, I was elated to get these presents and -- at the same time that I was so scared about the Paula Jones thing, I was happy to be with him and -- I -- I didn't think about that.

He had -- he had hesitated very briefly right before I left that day in kind of packaging -- he packaged all my stuff back up and I just sort of -- you know, remember him kind of hesitating and thinking to myself -- I don't think he said anything that indicated this to me, but I thought to myself, "I wonder if he's thinking he shouldn't give these to me to take out." But he did.

Q: And he had already told you he had some gifts for you for Christmas.

A: Correct.


Q: You mentioned earlier when I asked who was on the list in your mind of people who should be avoided like Nancy Hernreich or Steve Goodin, you mentioned Mr. Ickes.

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: That name came up. Why was Mr. Ickes on the avoid list?

A: He -- well, he -- he's just strange. And he -- I'm sorry. He would -- you know, you could be the only person in the hall and you would pass Mr. Ickes in the hall and he would just glare at you. You know.

And I'd say, "Hello," you know, as you would imagine you're supposed to do and he'd just glare at you and walk past you. And I thought that was strange. Call me weird.

Q: Okay. And that's the reason that you mentioned him on the list of people to avoid?

A: And I think just -- his name is sort of in my mind for having to do with things that we're discussing today and what's been in the press of it, but it really was most every senior person in the White House, I mean, except for Betty who knew who I was that would concern me.

Q: Right.

A: I mean, I had -- you know, I had had a lot of interaction with these people during the furlough, so --

Q: Let me ask you a question about Tim Keating. Did Tim Keating tell you or imply to you that you could come back after the election?

A: He told me that I could probably come back after the election.

Q: Okay. Do you remember when he said that to you?

A: Yes. On --

Q: Go ahead.

A: I'm sorry. On the day that he informed me of the transfer.

Q: So that would have been the 5th of April? Does that sound right? Friday, the 5th of April?

A: Correct. It was Good Friday, I remember.

Q: Did he say anything about any problem of an appearance of impropriety during that conversation with you? Something like doesn't matter after the election, anything like that?

A: No. No. No.

Q: That subject didn't come up at all?

A: Not with Mr. Keating.

Q: You mentioned that when -- oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Sure.

A JUROR: I'm sorry. What would have prompted him to make a comment like that, that you could come back after the election?

THE WITNESS: I was crying and I just kept telling him, I -- you know, I didn't really want to leave and why did I have to leave and wasn't there -- you know, weren't there other openings rather than me having to go to the Pentagon because he had --

Do you want me to get into a little bit about what was said there?

MR. EMMICK: If it will help answer the question, sure.

A JUROR: Yes. Please.

THE WITNESS: Okay. There had been problems with my supervisor, Jocelyn Jolley, and so when I was called in to Tim's office, I had thought he was -- he had just spoken with Jocelyn and I thought he was going to tell me they had fired Jocelyn and instead he told me that they were -- that for reasons having to do with some of the workload not -- things with the letters from the Office of Management and Budget, that they had to blow up -- quote-unquote, blow up the correspondence office and they were eliminating my position.

My transfer had nothing to do with my work, I shouldn't see this as a negative thing. He told me I was too sexy to be working in the East Wing and that this job at the Pentagon where I'd be writing press releases was a sexier job.

And I was crying and --


Q: What do you think he meant by "too sexy"?

A: I think he meant that -- he -- I think he was trying to --you know, trying to conceal the fact that -- you know, that I now know, the real reason I was being transferred. And so I think he was trying to not maybe anger me. And thought that somehow by -- maybe he thought I'd think that was a complement (sic).

A JUROR: Did you think he was patronizing you?

THE WITNESS: A little bit. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. I -- I just -- I just remember thinking that was -- I was never going to see the President again and that all of a sudden that this -- you know, the end of his -- this relationship.

And I kept -- I've always sort of -- I'm the kind of person that always thinks that I can fix everything and so it was kind of this --feeling of wait, this train's going too fast and I can't stop it and that it had already passed and -- and -- so when Tim said that, I think he sort of said that -- I don't think he meant to say that. I think that was probably more than he was supposed to say.

A JUROR: Thank you.


Q: Going back again to the 17th of December when the President called you and let you know about the witness list, you said he used the phrase, "It broke my heart to see you on the witness list." What was your reaction when he said that?

A: I believed him. I think I also --

Q: You thought he was being sincere?

A JUROR: Can I ask another follow-up question?


A JUROR: Because you had nothing to do with formulating this witness list, why do you think it breaks his heart, that your name was on there? Because you're innocent of having formulated this list. Do you have -- or in your opinion, what is it that hurt him?

THE WITNESS: I think it was the idea that -- that -- this was going to -- that this was going to be a bad thing for me. I mean, if you imagine what's happened now hadn't happened and let's just say the Paula Jones thing had gone ahead and I had somehow been dragged into that, just being associate (sic) with it and it being difficult and maybe he -- maybe it was going to seriously alter any kind of friendship or relationship that we had, you know?


Q: I want to ask a question about computer e-mails or files. Did you arrange for the deletion of files or e-mails that might have related to you and the President?

A: Did I arrange?

Q: Or did you delete them. Sorry.

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Okay. Did you ask Linda Tripp if she would delete e-mails relating to the President?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you speak with someone at the Department of Defense in order to learn something about those deletions or to make sure that they would be more longstanding?

A: Not about deletions.

Q: Okay. Well, what was it that you spoke with him about?

A: I asked him -- I asked Floyd, I think it is, if -- if --sort of how easily someone could break into the computers. And I couldn't imagine how I had come to this witness -- come to be on this witness list, so one of the things I thought was maybe someone had broken into my computer and was reading my e-mails. And he told me that that was really difficult.

And then I asked him about -- then with the thought in mind of getting rid of the e-mails, I asked him what the sort of saving procedure was with the e-mails. I know at the White House, they back them up and put them in the archive forever and he told me that at the Pentagon, they sort of stay on the server for four weeks and then they're dumped into e-mail heaven or something.

Q: All right. Did you ever ask Catherine Allday Davis to delete e-mails that you had sent relating to the President?

A: No.

Q: At any time, did you create anything like a spreadsheet that contained on it information relating to your relationship with the President?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. Tell us about that.

A: Linda and I had been talking and she had been talking about she's really good at coming up with patterns of things or -- I think that was the word she used. And so she was wanting to see -- you know, I think in an effort to aid her in trying to figure out what the pattern of my relationship with the President was, I made a stupid spreadsheet on Microsoft Excel that just had the -- the numbered days of the month and the months and determined on what day was there a phone call or did I see him or see him at an event or something like that. So --

Q: Is that something that you ultimately printed out and showed to her?

A: Yes.

Q: I take it that was on the DOD computer?

A: Yes.

Q: Were the entries that you made, would they have revealed that you were talking about Clinton?

A: No.

Q: Okay. Did you ever have an extra copy of that -- let's call it a spreadsheet?

A: No.

Q: Did you save the file of the spreadsheet?

A: No. I don't believe so.

Q: All right. Going back also to the night of the 17th, December 17th, just so that we can get clear on the date of that, it was at 2:30 in the morning. Is it literally on the 17th or is it --

A: Nineteen -- eighteen -- it is literally the morning, 2:30 in the morning of the 17th. So, yes.

Q: Okay. Good. When the President gave you the Vancouver bear on the 28th, did he say anything about what it means?

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: What did he say?

A: I think he -- I believe he said that the bear is the --maybe Indian symbol for strength, just -- you know, and to be strong like a bear.

Q: And did you interpret that as be strong in your decision to continue to conceal the relationship?

A: No.

MR. EMMICK: All right. Any follow-up on that?

MS. WIRTH: Can I ask one question?



Q: Did he say something like "This is when you need to be strong," or "This is for when you need to be..strong"? Beyond saying that it was a symbol of strength?

A: I think he -- he held it and he said, you know, "You can hold onto this when you need to be strong."

MS. WIRTH: Thank you.


Q: What I'd like to do is ask you about a passage from the proffer and I'm looking at page 5.

A: Okay.

Q: And you'll see at the bottom, and I'll read the passage, this is relating to the meeting on the 19th, just after you've gotten the subpoena, meeting with Vernon Jordan, and what the passage says is "Possibly later in that meeting, but more probably the next meeting," I assume that's a reference to the 22nd?

A: Correct.

Q: "Ms. Lewinsky tried to make it clear to Mr. Jordan that she in fact did have a physically intimate relationship with the President." And then let's go to the next page. It says, "Ms. Lewinsky made it clear she intended to deny the sexual relationship with the President."

So I guess what I want to talk about is the portion of the passage on page 5.

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: Tell us how you tried to make it clear to Mr. Jordan that you had a physically intimate relationship with the President.

A: I think by mentioning the phone sex.

Q: I see. All right. Any other way that you tried to make it clear to him?

A: Not that I remember.

Q: All right. And then is it your recollection now that it was on the 22nd that you were trying to make this clear to Mr. Jordan?

A: Yes.

Q: As opposed to the 19th?

A: Yes.

MR. EMMICK: Any other follow-up on that?

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