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From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 13

The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.

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Q: Ms. Lewinsky, how did you make it clear to him that you intended to deny the relationship with the President on the 23rd? Excuse me. The 22nd.

A: This is, I think, as I mentioned to you guys before, this is -- I don't have a memory of this. I know when I wrote this I was telling the truth, so I'm sure I did do this, but I don't remember.

MR. WISENBERG: Ms. Lewinsky --

Mike, do you mind if I ask some questions?

MR. EMMICK: Go right ahead.


Q: I think, you can correct me if I'm wrong, you've done it previously today, so I'm sure you will again if I am, you told us when we first met with you in the proffer meeting that you couldn't specifically remember that item. Is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And I think you said you couldn't specifically remember any more of the item that Mike just read to you on the bottom of the previous page about the physically intimate relationship.

A: Right.

Q: But that you had no doubt that it's true. Is that correct?

A: I was being truthful in my proffer. Yes.

Q: And the proffer, written proffer, is accurate. Is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: But -- and I think you also said you feel some -- I don't know if this is the reason you don't remember it, but you have expressed to us that you feel some guilt about Vernon Jordan. Is that correct?

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: That's a yes?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. Can you tell us why that is?

A: He was the only person who did what he said he was going to do for me and -- in getting me the job. And when I met with Linda on the 13th, when she was wearing a wire, and even in subsequent or previous conversations and subsequent conversations, I attributed things to Mr. Jordan that weren't true because I knew that it had leverage with Linda and that a lot of those things that I said got him into a lot of trouble and I just -- he's a good person and --

Q: Is one example of -- and then I'll leave this topic, is one example of one of the things you told Linda that isn't true, "I told Vernon Jordan no job, no affidavit?" Something along those lines?

A: Yes. Because Linda made me promise her that on the 9th.

Q: Okay. Of January?

A: Of January.


THE FOREPERSON: Do you need a minute?

THE WITNESS: I'm okay. Thanks.

A JUROR: I'm a little confused. When you said that you said certain things because you know Linda had the mike, right?

THE WITNESS: Oh, I didn't know Linda had the mike. I now know that she was wearing a wire.

A JUROR: Okay. But so why would you say these things about Mr. Jordan that were not true? What was the reason?

THE WITNESS: Because -- I had -- from some of my conversation with Linda, I started to think that she was a little bit jealous that Mr. Jordan was helping me get a job in New York and that I was leaving the Pentagon and that -- she had remarked one time that -- that, you know, Mr. Jordan who is the most powerful, you know, man in this city got me my attorney and she -- she thinks that she only had -- you know, this dinky attorney or something like that.

And I was -- I was so desperate for her to -- I was -- for her to not reveal anything about this relationship that I used anything and anybody that I could think of as leverage with her. I -- her, the President, my mom, everybody. I mean, not her, but Mr. Jordan, the President, my mom. Anybody that I thought would have any kind of influence on her, I used.

Does that answer your question?

A JUROR: Well, it doesn't. I guess-what I'm trying to figure out, okay, is what was that going to accomplish? Was that going to make her -- what?

THE WITNESS: Well, specifically, with the statement about I won't sign the affidavit until I get the job, is that I had a conversation with Linda, which we'll probably get to --

MR. EMMICK: I hope.

THE WITNESS: Oh. On January 9th and in that conversation, she had told me she had changed her mind, she was going to be vague on the truth about Kathleen Willey and then she told me -- at that point, I had told her I hadn't signed an affidavit when I had and I told I didn't have a job yet and I knew I was probably going to be getting a job that day.


And she said, "Monica, promise me you won't sign the affidavit until you get the job. Tell Vernon you won't sign the affidavit until you get the job because if you sign the affidavit before you get the job, they're never going to give you the job."

And I didn't want her to think that I had gone ahead and done anything without her and that I was leaving her in the dark. I wanted her to feel that -- sort of Linda and myself against everyone else because I felt like I needed to hold her hand through this in order to try to get her to do what I wanted, essentially.


Q: We can get into that in more detail when we talk about the 13th.

A: Okay.

Q: Why don't we do the following. I wanted to ask some --rather than just jumping into the 31st which is a Vernon Jordan meeting, why don't we ask some questions about which of your gifts to the President you have ever seen in the White House itself, either in the dining room or the study or the Oval Office generally.

A: Does that include gifts that I gave him that I've seen him wear?

Q: All right. Well, let's just start with the things that you've seen in the area itself.

A: Okay. Okay. I -- can I go through -- just go through the list?

Q: Sure.

A: That would probably be easier. On page 6, I've seen the two little books.

Q: Two little books?

A: The "Oy Vey" book, which is jokes and the little golf book.

Q: Do you remember when you saw those books?

A: Yes. On -- I think it was November 13th.

Q: Zadilla day?

A: Zadilla day.

Q: All right.

A: I saw a copy of the Washington Post ad that I had in a book on his desk.

Q: You gave him a smallish copy of the --

A: I gave him an actual copy that I cut out from one of the papers and I glued it into a little cardboard thing.

Q: And where did you see it on his desk.

A: It was inside a book.

Q: And the book was on the desk in the study?

A: Yes.

MS. WIRTH: Mike, could I ask a question?


Q: Did you see the ad in a particular book?

A: Yes.

Q: Which one?

A: "VOX."

Q: Okay. And was that on the desk in the study?

A: Yes.

Q: And was "Oy Vey" on the desk in the study?

A: Yes.

Q: What about the little golf book?

A: I think it was. I -- I -- I'm not 100 percent sure it was a golf book, I'm 99.9 percent sure.

Q: And about how many books does the President have on his desk in the study?

A: He has maybe about 15 or 20 little books that are on his desk and he has more books over there and more books on the bookshelf.

MS. WIRTH: Thank you.


Q: How about the opener?

A: Right. The -- right. The wooden frog letter opener that I gave him. I'm just trying to go through this way, so --

Q: All right. Go ahead.

A: I saw the -- well, I lent him the book "Disease and Misrepresentation."

Q: And did you see it in the Oval Office somewhere?

A: No, I saw it in the back study.

Q: The back study? And that would have been on page 8, I believe?

A: Right. And then the letter opener that I was mentioning a moment ago was on page 9. I saw the antique paperweight.

Q: Okay. Where is it that you saw the opener?

A: It was on top of -- I think it's a cigar box on his desk in the back office. I saw the antique --


Q: When did you see that, Monica?

A: Zadilla day. I saw the antique paperweight on his -- he has a collection of antique political memorabilia in the dining room on top of sort of a chest sort of thing, and I saw that there on -- I think on December 6th or December 28th.


Q: Okay. Do you remember which?

A: No. I saw the standing cigar holder, I think, it was on his Oval Office desk. Or it might have been in the back. I think it was on the Oval Office desk. On the 28th of December. And that's it.

Q: All right. Let's turn our attention to the 31st of December. You had indicated earlier that at some point you started to get more and more concerned about Linda Tripp and whether she was going to rat on you, I think was the way you put it. What did you do with respect to Vernon Jordan in that concern?

A: Since Linda had stopped returning my calls around the 24th of December, by the end of December, I realized I'd kind of better come up with some sort of strategy as to how -- if Linda Tripp comes out and says all these things where this is coming from and try to prepare the President.

And since I couldn't find it within myself to bring it up to him directly, I called Mr. Jordan and told him that I needed to talk to him, I had some concerns about something.

Q: When did you call him?

A: I think it was the 30th of December.

Q: Did you speak with him directly?

A: I think I might have spoken with his -- with his secretary.

Q: Do you remember her name?

A: Gail. There was another one, too, but I've forgot her name. And I met Mr. Jordan for breakfast on -- no, not Sunday but December 31st, the morning of the 31st, at the Park Hyatt Hotel.

And in the course of the conversation I told him that I had had this friend, Linda Tripp, who was sort of involved in the Paula Jones case with, I think, the Kathleen Willey stuff. I don't know if I went into that much detail, but I did tell him her name.

And I said that she was my friend, that I didn't really trust her -- 1 used to trust her, but I didn't trust her any more and I was a little bit concerned because she had spent the night at my home a few times and I thought -- I told Mr. Jordan, I said, well, maybe she's heard some -- you know -- I mean, maybe she saw some notes lying around.

And Mr. Jordan said, "Notes from the President to you?" And I said, "No, notes from me to the President." and he said, "Go home and make sure they're not there."

Q: What did you understand him to mean when he said, "Go home and make sure they're not there"?

A: I thought that meant that -- to go home and search around and if there are any copies of notes or anything that I sent or drafts, to throw them away.

Q: Did you have any further discussions with Mr. Jordan about Mr. Clinton and the Clinton's (sic) marital status?

A: Yes. After breakfast, in the car, I asked Mr. Jordan if he thought the President would always be married to the First Lady and he said, "Yes, as he should be." And gave me a quote from the Bible. And a few -- maybe a minute or so later, he said, "Well, maybe you two will have an affair when he's out of office."

And at that point, I was shocked because I thought Mr. Jordan had known that we had already had this affair and I think I alluded to this earlier today when I saying until the 31st I didn't know, and I said, "Well, we already had an affair. We just -- you know, we didn't have sex or did everything but sex," or something like that. And he just kind of went -- one of those "Mmmph." You know --

Q: A grunt?

A: And didn't really respond to me. So I took that as my cue to drop the subject. But -- so --

MR. EMMICK: All right.


Q: What did you eat for breakfast at the Hyatt?

A: I had an -- I had an egg white omelet.


Q: What did he have?

A: I think he had cereal with yogurt.


Q: Do you remember who paid?

A: Mr. Jordan. He's a gentleman.

Q: Do you remember how he paid?

A: No.

Q: Has anyone from the Office of Independent Counsel or the FBI shown you any paperwork of any kind with reference to that breakfast?

A: No.

MR. WISENBERG: Thank you.


Q: Let's turn back to the topic of gifts. Okay. Did you give a gift to the President in early January.

A: Yes, I did. Well, I guess -- I gave it to Ms. Currie for the President.

Q: What was the gift?

A: It was an antique book on the various presidents with sketchings. A history book.

Q: Where did you buy the book?

A: At an antique bookstore in Georgetown.

Q: Was there anything along with the book?

A: A note.

Q: Okay. What kind of a note?

A: An embarrassing mushy note.

Q: Okay. Did you attach the note to the book in some way?

A: I don't really -- I might have put it inside the book or I may have put it outside. I wrapped the book.

Q: And how did you try to get this book to the President?

A: I called Betty over the weekend and asked her if I could drop it off so I didn't have to waste money on a courier.

Q: And when you say "the weekend," are you talking about that first weekend in January?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember if it was Saturday, the 3rd, or Sunday, the 4th?

A: I believe it was Sunday the 4th.

Q: You called Betty and what again did you say to Betty?

A: I don't -- I think I said something -- you know, - "I have something for him, could I drop it off to you so I don't have to waste money on a courier."

Q: Okay. And what did you do?

A: So she said that was fine. So I went over to her home and --

Q: Had you been to her home before?

A: Yes.

Q: Had you ever dropped anything off at her home for the President before?

A: No.

Q: What did you do when you got her home?

A: Well, she was sitting on the porch, so we sat on the porch and I gave her the package and we talked for a little while.

Q: Did you talk at all about the gift that was for the President?

A: We might have. I might have mentioned it. Probably did. I'm not --

Q: Was there any discussion about the fact that the President was himself under subpoena and was going to be deposed in a couple of weeks?

A: No.

Q: Were you concerned about giving him a book, a gift, under those circumstances?

A: No.

Q: Okay. Did you ever talk to the President and learn whether he got the book and the note?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: All right. When did you talk with him and learn about that?

A: On the 5th of January. I think it was the 5th of January. You know -- can I just --

Q: Sure. Take a look.

A: Yes. It was the 5th of January.

Q: And that would have been Monday?

A: Correct.

Q: Why don't we try to proceed through Monday because Monday started with a meeting with you and Frank Carter and then there was the phone call afterwards, so let's go first to the meeting with Frank Carter.

A: Okay.

Q: Feel free.

A: I met with Mr. Carter to go over in more detail where we stood at that point with the Paula Jones case and he went over -- he went over what was going to happen if an affidavit wasn't going to satisfy the Paula Jones attorneys and I did have to get deposed and what the room looks like, what -- you know -- everything that happens in a deposition and he threw out a bunch of different questions.

You know, they'll probably ask you who your first-grade teacher was and they'll ask you -- you know, some things and then some of the questions that concerned me were questions like "How did you get your job at the Pentagon?" And how did -- you know, and he said, "They'll ask things like did you find out about the opening on a bulletin board or did someone tell you about it? Who recommended you for the job? How did everything get facilitated for the transfer?"

And that alarmed me because I didn't really know how to necessarily answer that. I didn't express that to Mr. Carter, but --

Q: Well, when you say you didn't know how to answer it, what do you mean, you didn't know how to answer it?

A: Well, I was concerned that if I said in -- you know, if possibly that was going to come up in the affidavit which hadn't bee written yet or in a deposition, if I had said -- mentioned certain people that had been involved in helping me secure the position over at the Pentagon or forcing me to go there, really, that because these people didn't like me, if they were ever questioned by the Paula Jones attorneys, that they might say something contrary to what I said just because -- to get me in trouble because they didn't like me.

So I was concerned that -- I wanted to -- I wanted to have some sort of feeling of protection, that -- you know, that I wouldn't be screwed over by these people.

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