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From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 14

The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.

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Q: Were you concerned that they were going to say nasty things about you or were you concerned that they were going to say things that might ultimately lead to the revealing of the relationship in some way?

A: No, I was just concerned that they would purposefully say something different from whatever I said just because they had the opportunity to screw me. I mean -- not -- never mind.

Q: Okay.

A: To cause trouble for me. How's that?

Q: Did you discuss with Mr. Carter the affidavit that you were considering?

A: Yes.

Q: What did you talk about?

A: I think he -- he said he would work on a draft and he'd get a draft of the affidavit to me.

Q: Okay. At the time, did you want anyone else to review that affidavit before you ultimately signed it?

A: At first, I didn't think about it, but then I did. I decided I wanted Mr. Jordan to look at it.

Q: All right. Why did you want Mr. Jordan to look it?

A: I think I felt that -- that he being the President's best friend and having a -- a clearer understanding of my relationship with the President than Mr. Carter did, that I just would feel that it sort of had been blessed.

MR. EMMICK: Okay.

BY MS. IMMERGUT:

Q: And would that be blessed by the President as well?

A: Yes, I that's what I -- I mean, I -- I think I felt that -excuse me. That, you know, if Mr. Jordan thought something was okay, that I'm sure the President would think it was fine.

MS. IMMERGUT: Okay.

BY MR. EMMICK:

Q: Did you discuss the subpoena and the items that might be responsive to the subpoena anymore? I think you had talked about it earlier.

A: You know, there's been a little bit of confusion for me when I gave Mr. Carter those items, so it's possible.

Q: All right. You mentioned that Mr. Carter asked you some hard questions about like how you got your job. Did you want to talk with anybody about that afterwards?

A: Yes. I placed a call to Ms. Currie and asked her to let the President know I needed to speak to him and it was important.

Q: Did you say anything to Ms. Currie about signing something?

A: I think I might have sort of said, just, you know, hoping that she might pass that along, I think.

BY MS. IMMERGUT:

Q: Do you remember saying that you wanted to or needed to speak to the President before you signed something?

A: I think so.

BY MR. EMMICK:

Q: All right. Did you explain to her what you meant when you said that?

A: No.

Q: Okay.

A: I'm pretty sure I did say that to Ms. Currie.

Q: Did you finally get in contact or did you at some time shortly thereafter get in contact with Mr. Clinton?

A: Yes.

Q: How did that happen?

A: Ms. Currie called me back a few hours later and then she put the President on.

Q: Before we talk about what the President and you talked about, as background, I guess, were you upset or in a mood that day from a photograph you had seen?

A: Oh, you really want to embarrass me, don't you?

Q: Well, I just want to get the mood right.

A: I had been peeved by the photo and the footage that was in the media from the President and First Lady being romantic on their holiday vacation. So I felt a little bit like -- I -- I was just annoyed. I was jealous and it just seemed sort of something he had never -- an aspect of their relationship that he had never really revealed to me and it made me feel bad.

So I was -- I don't know if anyone here has ever done this, where you -- you're annoyed with someone so you kind of want to pick a fight with them and you want to be a little bit hostile so that -- you know, you just rub them the wrong way.

Q: Okay.

A: So that's how I was feeling.

Q: That's how you exhibited the annoyance or anger or whatever.

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: Okay. Tell us about your conversation with the President.

A: Because of those feelings, I was a little bit curt with him and so I told him that I had had this meeting with Mr. Carter and that I was concerned, you know, from the questions he asked me that if, you know, if I at some point had to kind of -- under oath, answer these questions and in the course of answering a question I mentioned people at the White House who didn't like me, that somehow I would end up getting -- they'd get me in trouble.

And so he -- so when I told him the questions about my job at the Pentagon, he said, "Well, you could always say that the people in Legislative Affairs got it for you or helped you get it."

And there was a lot of truth to that. I mean, it was a generality, but that was -- I said, "Well, that's a good idea. Okay."

Q: Was there any discussion of the book?

   

A: Yes. I had asked him if he had gotten the book that I sent with Betty and he said he did, he really liked it, and then -- I had written him this -- this note that I had sort of -- wrote -- I think it was Saturday night when I got home from the movies and I had seen the Titanic that weekend and it just was -- just brought up a lot of feelings and thoughts for me that I put on -- that I put on paper.

And so I sort of said something about, "Oh, well, I shouldn't have written some of those things in the note." Because I was angry about seeing the picture with them romantic, it made me feel really stupid for having sent this letter.

And he said, "Yeah, you shouldn't have written some of those things." Kind of along the ways he had said before, about not writing particular things on paper, you know, putting things to paper. So --

Q: About how long was your telephone call with the President?

A: Maybe 15 minutes.

MR. EMMICK: Anything else on that?

THE WITNESS: I see you trying not to laugh.

MR. EMMICK: What about break-wise? Where are we? Is this a good time for a break or do we want to keep going?

THE FOREPERSON: Yes. Yes.

MR. EMMICK: All right.

THE FOREPERSON: I would say only five minutes.

MR. EMMICK: All right. Five minutes it is.

THE FOREPERSON: A five-minute break. I'm sorry, guys. Okay.

(Witness excused. Witness recalled.)

MR. EMMICK: Madam Foreperson, do we have a quorum?

THE FOREPERSON: Yes, we do.

MR. EMMICK: Are there any unauthorized persons present?

THE FOREPERSON: There are none.

Monica, it's my responsibility --

THE WITNESS: I know.

THE FOREPERSON: -- to remind you you're still under oath.

THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.

BY MR. EMMICK:

Q: We just finished talking about January 5th. Why don't we turn to January 6th. On January 6th, did you pick up a copy of the draft affidavit from Frank Carter?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: You had mentioned earlier that you wanted Vernon Jordan to look at it. Did you contact him?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Did you speak with him personally or did you speak with someone on his staff?

A: I don't really remember.

Q: And did you try to get a copy of the draft affidavit to Mr. Jordan?

A: Yes. I dropped off a Xerox copy in his office.

Q: In his office?

A: In the lobby of his -- of Akin Gump.

Q: Did you make any arrangements to contact him in order to talk about the draft affidavit?

A: I believe -- I think I remember Gail saying he was in a meeting and something about 4:OO, that he was going to be out and he would call me at 4:00.

Q: Did you talk with him on the affidavit?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: All right. Tell us what the two of you talked about.

A: I had had some concerns from looking at the draft affidavit and addressed those concerns with him and he agreed.

Q: What were the nature of the concerns, if you remember?

A: I think that the general concern was that Mr. Carter had inserted some information about me having possibly been alone with the President for a few minutes, bring him a letter in Legislative Affairs.

Q: Would it help you if I showed you a copy of the draft with some of your handwriting on it?

A: Oh. Yes.

MR. EMMICK: I'm placing before the witness what is marked as Grand Jury Exhibit ML-3.

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. ML-3 was

marked for identification.)

BY MR. EMMICK:

Q: Can you tell us what this is?

A: Sure. Do the grand jurors have a copy of this?

Q: They do.

A: Okay. This is a draft of my affidavit that Mr. Carter drew up based on his conversations with me.

Q: And the handwriting on it? Whose is that?

A: That's my handwriting.

Q: There's also some underlining and some scratch-outs.

A: Mh-hmm.

Q: Did you do all of that?

A: Yes.

Q: Can you remember looking at that now what the two of you talked about?

A: I think that -- I think that it was -- I think the two main things were this last sentence in paragraph 6 and the -- the concern was, for me at least, was not wanting to give the Paula Jones attorneys any thought about why they might need to want to talk to me. So if I had mentioned that I had been in there alone, it would kind of make them thing, oh, well, what happened and did he proposition or blah, blah, blah.

And then the second thing was in the -- towards the end of paragraph 8 on page 2, the idea of with crowds of other people, I think to me was too far from the fake truth?

Q: Okay.

A: Does that -- is that clear? Sort of -- that that seemed to be too out of the realm of possibility, so --

Q: Too implausible?

A: Exactly. Thank you. So I believe that, you know, that this statement, "There were other people present on all of these occasions," was something that I discussed with Mr. Jordan.

Q: Did he agree with the suggestions or thoughts that you had on those two passages?

A: Yes, I believe so.

Q: Was there any discussion with Mr. Jordan about the portion of paragraph 8 saying that there was no sexual relationship?

A: No.

Q: At any time, did Mr. Jordan say that he didn't want to speak to you about the affidavit?

A: No.

Q: How long was your conversation with Mr. Jordan?

A: I don't remember. Not long. We may have also talked about job stuff, too. But --

Q: All right, then. Let's turn our attention to the next day, which is the 7th. That's the day when you finalized and signed the affidavit. Is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: And you notarized it under penalty of perjury.

A: Yes.

MR. EMMICK: I believe you have -- this is the final version and it is Grand Jury Exhibit ML-4.

(Grand Jury Exhibit No. ML-4 was

marked for identification.)

BY MR. EMMICK:

Q: I'm placing that before you.

A: Okay.

Q: And it says ""Affidavit of Jane Doe No. 6" at the top and it has your signature, right?

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: When you spoke with Frank Carter that morning in order to finalize the affidavit, do you remember what changes were made?

A: When I spoke with him before I arrived at his office or in his office?

Q: Either time.

A: I believe that I sort of dictated to him the changes -- I think that's possible or I gave them to him in person, I don't really remember. Mr. Carter had prepared three different versions of the affidavit for the significant portion related to this case, I guess, they were all denying sexual relations, all three of them. And we discussed various things about it and eventually decided on this affidavit.

Q: All right. Let me ask you a straightforward question. Paragraph 8 at the start says, "I have never had a sexual relationship with the President." Is that true?

A: No.

Q: All right. The next logical follow-up is, and maybe it's self-evident, but why were you willing to say something that was false under penalty of perjury?

A: I don't think that it's anybody's business.

Q: Okay. Let me turn the page for you. At the end of paragraph 8, the statement, "The occasions that I saw the President after I left my employment at the White House in April 1996 were official receptions, formal functions or events related to the U.S. Department of Defense, where I was working at the time. There were other people present on those occasions." That's not correct either, is it?

A: No, it's misleading.

Q: Okay. In what respect?

A: For me, at the time, I said -- well, it doesn't say the only occasions, but it's misleading in that one reading it would assume that the only occasions on which I saw the President were those listed.

Q: Right.

A: But I did some justifying in signing the affidavit, so --

Q: Justifying -- does the word "rationalizing" apply as well?

A: Rationalize, yes.

Q: All right. All right. On the 7th, after you signed the affidavit, did you keep a copy of the affidavit?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Where did you go later on the 7th?

A: To New York.

Q: Did you take a copy of the affidavit with you?

A: Yes.

Q: Why?

A: If I remember correctly, I was in a rush and I kind of wanted to have it, if I wanted to look it over again or --

Q: Why were you going to New York?

A: A job interview.

Q: Did you have a job interview?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Was that the next day?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. Let's turn our attention to the job interview on the morning of the 8th. Now, was that with McAndrews & Forbes?

A: Yes. This is my -- I had -- I mean, just to remind everyone, I had had some job interviews on the 18th of December up in New York at McAndrews & Forbes and Burson-Marsteller. I also took a test on the 30th, I think, of December at Burson-Marsteller and this is now another interview at McAndrews & Forbes on the 8th.

Q: Do you remember who you interviewed with that morning?

A: Jamie Dernan.

Q: How did the interview go?

A: Very poorly.

Q: Okay. Tell us why it went poorly. What do you mean?

A: I think it started off on the wrong foot because I was in a waiting room downstairs and I had thought they would let me know when he was available and I'd go to his office and instead he just walked in unannounced and the interview started, so I was -- I didn't have my wits together at the moment. And I was -- I just was sort of flustered from that moment on. I think everyone can relate to having a bad interview. Maybe.

Q: How long was the interview?

A: Maybe 20 minutes.

Q: Was that the only interview that morning?

A: Yes.

Q: What was your reaction afterwards?

A: I was upset. I felt horrible. I might have even cried. I was embarrassed. I thought that I had sort of embarrassed Mr. Jordan, I think, in such a bad interview.

Q: After having a bad interview like that, did you expect an offer?

A: No, I didn't think so. My first interview with McAndrews & Forbes had been really, really good, so I wasn't sure exactly what was going to happen, but I didn't think it was --

Q: Not a good sign.

A: Correct.

Q: What did you do after you had that bad interview?

A: At some point, I called Mr. Jordan to just let him know that it had gone poorly.

Q: Do you remember whether you placed on call or several calls to try to get a hold of him?

A: I'm sure I placed several. It was -- he's difficult to get a hold of.

Q: Did you eventually talk to him on the 8th?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: What did you tell him?

A: I told him that it hadn't worked out and that I was asking his advice on whether I should contact Burson-Marsteller or not and that I was concerned that the McAndrews & Forbes hadn't gone well.

Q: At the time you were talking to him, were you still upset about the interview?

A: I don't really remember. I'm sure I was. It was kind of a depressing thing all day.

Q: And did he say what he was going to do because the interview had not gone well?

A: Yes.

Q: What did he say?

A: He said he'd call the chairman. I thought he was kidding.

Q: Okay. And did he call you back some time shortly thereafter?

A: Yes, he did.

Q: About how long after he called -- excuse me. About how long after he said he was going to call the chairman did he call you back? If you remember.

A: I don't remember. I don't think it was very long after, but --

Q: What did he say when he called back?

A: That not to worry -- you know, I don't remember the exact words that he used. The gist of the conversation was that, you know, the were going to call me and everything was going to be okay.

Q: Did he say that he had gotten a hold of the chairman or did he mention that at all or --

A: I don't remember.

Q: Did Revlon or McAndrews & Forbes personnel get a hold of you later after Mr. Jordan called?

A: Yes. They called to set up an interview for me with someone directly at Revlon for the next day.

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