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From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 15

The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.

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Q: Do you remember about when it was that you were called later on the 8th?

A: I think it was some time early evening.

Q: Early evening?

A: Or evening.

Q: Were you surprised by the call?

A: From having heard from Mr. Jordan, not 100 percent.

Q: All right. They set up an interview for the next day?

A: yes.

Q: Did you have an interview the next day?

A: Yes.

Q: Who did you interview with?

A: Ellen Seidman.

Q: And what was the tone of that interview?

A: It went very well. It was --

Q: Better than with Jamie Dernan?

A: Yes.

Q: All right.

A: It was a very good interview.

Q: Did you interview with others at Revlon as well?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember about how many interviews there were?

A: Two others, aside from Ms. Seidman's.

Q: And you mentioned that the interviews went well. After the interviews, did you give a call to Vernon to let him know how things were going?

A: I think so.

Q: Later that day, did you have another call from Revlon?

A: From Revlon?

Q: Mm-hmm.

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Tell us about that.

A: They sort of informally offered me a position and I informally accepted it.

Q: Do you remember who it was you were speaking with at the time?

A: I believe it was Ellen Seidman.

Q: Okay. You made a reference earlier in this grand jury appearance to a conversation you had with Linda Tripp on the 9th.

A: Yes.

Q: We're now on the 9th and I can tell you would like to talk about this conversation. Tell us about your conversation with Linda Tripp on the 9th. Let's start with when it happened.

A: Well, I was returning Linda's call from earlier in the week and I think I made a couple of attempts to get a hold of her at her office and when I did get in touch with her, I told her I was on a pay phone because I was concerned about the phones.

And I just -- I -- I didn't -- I was very distrustful of her at this point, especially when I first got on the phone with her. I didn't really know why we were going to be in touch at this point, from what had happened the few weeks before.

So she started out the conversation, I think, asking me, you know, what was going on with my job stuff and everything and I told her I didn't have a job yet and that I hadn't heard from Betty, the President, or Mr. Jordan since December and I didn't know what was going on and so we were discussing that. And that was not true, obviously.

And then she told me that she had gone up to New York over Christmas to be with -- I think Norma Asness is her name, and that while she was in New York during the holidays she was shopping with Ms. Asness and this other woman on Madison Avenue buying shoes and that this woman had told Linda she was really savvy and Linda should move to New York and get a PR job in New York. Which I thought was a little strange, since I was in the process of moving to New York for a PR job.


That was just one of the indications that made me think she was a little bit jealous of the help I was getting, that I was talking about earlier.

So when we started to discuss the case, she told me that -- that because of this experience she had had in New York, she decided that maybe it would be best for her to be really vague on the truth about Kathleen Willey. You know, she really didn't know anything, she didn't really remember much, and that -- you know, led me to -- and I believe she may have even said directly that she wasn't going to tell about me or that I was -- you know, my understanding of that was that she wasn't even going to mention me and that I was safe.

Q: Did this come as a surprise to you?

A: Yes, it did.

Q: In what way?

A: Because she had -- I mean, she had stopped returning my phone calls, we had left everything in a very bad note a few weeks prior to that. So --

In the course of this conversation, when we talked about my job, she said, "Well, Monica -- " Oh. Oh. She asked me what I was going to do in the case and I told her that I was planning on signing an affidavit. Even though I had already signed the affidavit, I didn't want Linda to think that I would have gone ahead and done such a bold thing without her approval.

So she made -- that's when, as I mentioned earlier, she made me promise her that I wouldn't sign the affidavit until I got the job. She also went into this whole long story about her friend --

Am I getting into too much detail?

MR. EMMICK: Close.



THE WITNESS: Okay. All right. She told me about her -- this friend, I don't remember her name, but she's this -- she's an Indian woman who Linda goes to the gym with and that this Indian woman had gone to a psychic and the psychic had essentially said that one of her friends was in imminent danger having to do with the words she would speak.

So that that led Linda to believe, you know, along with this event in New York that she should -- you know, she's kind of going to go the good route -- well, what I considered the good route in the Paula Jones case. And it was really based on this conversation that I had with her and this sort of change that I agreed to meet with Linda on the 13th of January.


Q: Then let's go to the 13th of January. Let me first cover some of the job-related items. On the 13th, did you get a formal offer from Revlon?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: And did you accept that offer?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: How was the matter left about references or recommendations?

A: Well, she -- I can't remember her name, something with a J, I think. The woman in human resources with whom I was dealing about the job offer said, you know, I needed to send her some references, so this had been in -- oh. So I called Betty to ask her to remind the President or to check out for me what Mr. Hilley would say to -- I'm not saying this clearly. I'm sorry.

Q: That's all right.

A: One of the people that I needed to get a reference from was John Hilley, who was the head of Legislative Affairs and had been my boss when I was there the latter half of my tenure at the White House. I was concerned that if I put him down as a reference, he might not say flattering things about me.

So I asked -- I had mentioned this to the President on October 11th and he said he'd, you know, make sure everything was okay, so I wanted to -- so I checked with Betty to ask her to kind of find out what was happening, what the status of that was. So --

Q: Did you get a message later from Betty on that subject?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Okay. What was that message?

A: She had me page her and then later I came to find out from her that afternoon that it had been -- I think Mr. Podesta took care of it and that everything would be fine with Mr. Hilley.

Q: Now, when the two of you were paging each other on this day, the name Kay was used rather than either Betty or Monica. Where did that name come from?

A: This has sort of become a kind of strange area for me. I had not -- and I do not specifically remember discussing with Betty the fact that I had been subpoenaed in the Paula Jones case and anything surrounding that, but sort of I now know from -- from sort of things that I've been reminded of or shown that I must have. And one of them that indicates that to me is this notion that she -- I -- she and I had started -- I suggested that we use sort of the code name Kay in her paging me and in me paging her. And --

Q: And where does the name Kay come from?

A: Because Betty and I, our first encounter and our first connection was through Walter Kaye.

Q: Now, had you and Betty had earlier conversations about the fact that her message indicator, I guess it would be her beeper or her pager?

A: Her pager.

Q: Her pager.

A: Her text message pager.

Q: Her text message pager on some occasion might have indicated Monica?

A: Yes. There had been -- I think there had been at least one time when Betty's pager had been sitting on her desk when she was in with the President or had stepped away and someone else had picked up her pager when it went off and there was a message from me.

And so from -- you know, Betty kind of covered it, I think, by saying -- or she did actually have another friend named Monica or something or another, but it was -- you know -- Rebecca Cameron was the person who picked up the pager and so it was sort of a -- not a good thing to happen.

Q: Why use any fake names, Kay or any other name? What's the reason you've got to use fake names at this time?

A: I was beyond paranoid. I mean, I -- and obviously in denial. I think the -- I could not understand how I had been dragged into the Paula Jones case and so I was very wary of everything.

Q: What did Betty say, if you can remember, when you suggested that you refer to one another as Kay?

A: Okay.

Q: Okay. Did she ask why or --

A: I don't remember having this conversation with her.

Q: All right. Were you also using names to refer to others? For example, the name Mary?

A: Yes.

Q: Who did Mary refer to?

A: Linda.

Q: And why were you using the name Mary to refer to Linda?

A: Because that's what she chose.

Q: And why were you using any name other than Linda to refer to Linda?

A: Because Linda and Betty were the two people who paged me that were involved -- you know, somehow fell into this circle of the Paula Jones story. Is that -- it's not clear. I'm sorry. Okay.

Q: When you were speaking with Linda about the President, did you sometimes refer to the President as "her" rather than "him"?

A: Linda? No. I don't believe so.


Q: So that was Betty?

A: Yes.


Q: Okay. And why did you use "her" to refer to the President?

A: I believe that that was only in pages to her and it was just -- you know, I knew that the WAVES -- from having worked at the White House, I knew that people had access to the WAVES pages, let alone that someone types them, so it just was another measure of caution that I used throughout.

Q: All right.

A: I don't think I ever referred to the President on Betty's pages.

Q: When we were talking earlier about your clarifying whether John Hilley would give you a recommendation, you indicated that you had a page from Betty. Does it refresh your recollection about what the page said if I were to read the following?

We have a page indicating that it says, "Will know something soon, Kay." Does that remind you about any pages that you got from Betty?

A: Yes, I think I mentioned earlier that she paged me and then I talked to her later that day and found out about John Hilley.

Q: All right. did you -- at some point, did you send to Revlon a letter giving them the two recommendations, one of which was John Hilley?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember when that was?

A: I believe I faxed it on the 14th of January.

Q: So that would be the next day.

A: Correct.


Q: Pardon me. Were they recommendations or references? Just as a technical matter, in other words, were they names or were they actual letters of recommendation?

A: Oh. They were references, then.


Q: All right. Let's go back to the 13th for just a moment because you met with Linda Tripp that day, I think you said, on the 9th you had --

A: I also met with Mr. Jordan.

Q: Okay. All right. Okay. Well, let's go back to Mr. Jordan, then.

A: Well, I -- I mean, I was just thinking about the day. I'm sorry.

Q: No, that's fine. That's fine.

A: Just I stopped in to see him for five minutes, to Thank him for getting me the job, and I gave him a tie and a pocket square.



Q: Did you ever provide Mr. Jordan with a signed copy of the affidavit?

A: I did not provide him with a copy. No.

Q: Do you know whether or not he ever received a copy?

A: I believe I showed him a copy. I don't know that he received a copy.


Q: On this same meeting on the 13th?

A: I -- I -- you know, I have to say I know I brought the copy with me to show him and I may have said, you know, "Do you want to see it?" And I think he may have not even --I think he may have said, you know, "I don't need to see it." Or -- I --


Q: So you don't specifically recall handing it over tohim or even showing it to him specifically.

A: No.

Q: But you brought it for him to --

A: I did bring it.

MS. IMMERGUT: Correct.


Q: All right. So that's the Vernon Jordan part of the 13th.

A: Right.

Q: What about the meeting with Linda Tripp?

A: It was long. I was -- I was very nervous. I was wary of her. I actually thought she might have a tape recorder with her and had looked in her bag when she had gone up to the restroom. I told her a whole bunch of lies that day.

Q: What were you trying to accomplish in meeting with her?

A: I was trying to -- I was trying to make Linda continue to feel comfortable that she and I were sort of on the -- that we were on the same side, we were on the right side.

We -- and that -- when I had agreed to meet with her, I thought we were going to go over kind of her strategy for what she was going to do in the case and then once we got together, she kind of started wavering about what she wanted to do and then -- so I just was using everything I knew to try to convince he that -- that this is the right thing to do.

Q: I think you mentioned earlier that you told her lies.

A: Yes.

Q: What lies do you have in mind?

A: I mean, I think -- throughout that month of December, after I knew she was subpoenaed, there were various things that I think I said that were untrue, but I specifically remember from this meeting the thing that I had -- what I said to Linda was, "Oh, you know, I told -- I told Mr. Jordan that I wasn't going to sign the affidavit until I got the job." Obviously, which wasn't true.

I told her I didn't yet have a job. That wasn't true. I told her I hadn't signed the affidavit. That wasn't true. I told her that some time over the holidays I had freaked out and my mom took me to Georgetown Hospital and they put me on Paxil. That wasn't true.

I think I told her that -- you know, at various times the President and Mr. Jordan had told me I had to lie. That wasn't true. That's just a small example. Probably some more things about my mom. Linda had an obsession with my mom, so she was a good leverage.

Q: Let's turn our attention back to the 14th, then. On the 14th, the next day?

A: Okay.

Q: Right.

A: Okay.

Q: There's three pieces of paper that have come to be referred to as the talking points.

A: Yes.

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