From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 16 The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.
MR. EMMICK: I think we have them marked as Grand Jury Exhibit ML-5.
(Grand Jury Exhibit No. ML-5 was marked for identification.)
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: I'll place them in front of you.
Q: And they are three pages. I wonder if you tell us how those came to be written and on what computer and the like.
A: Okay. First of all, they're out of order.
A: So the last page was actually the first page.
Q: All right. Well, let's clarify. What is now the first page says "Points to make in affidavit." And the second page says, "The first few paragraphs" at the top. And the third page says, "You're not sure you've been clear." The third page should be the first page?
Q: All right. Let's go to first the mechanics of how these got generated.
Q: Were those printed from your printer?
Q: Were they typed on your computer?
Q: Was anyone present with you when they were typed?
Q: When were they typed?
A: On the 14th.
Q: Did you talk with anyone in an effort to get assistance editing or writing or getting approval for what is in the talking points?
Q: How did the -- where did you get the ideas that are reflected in the talking points?
A: They were based on conversations I've had with Linda from the moment Kathleen Willey and Michael Isikoff ever entered into the picture until the conversations I had with her in the morning of the 14th on the phone.
Q: Tell me what you mean by that.
A: At various times, especially early on, around March or so when -- when Kathleen Willey first came up, Linda talked about how -- you know, that -- that -- what Kathleen was saying to Michael Isikoff was not true. And so, you know, we had had -- I remember having this discussion with her where we were saying, well, if -- you know, if she's lying to Michael Isikoff, how do you know she didn't lie to you?
Linda said, "Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe she did." You know?
And I said, "Yeah, sure. She could have, you know, smeared her own lipstick and untucked her own blouse."
And Linda said, "Yeah, it's true."
That was very early on and throughout my discussions with Linda, especially when she was saying -- saying things about how to be vague on the Kathleen Willey issue in the Paula Jones case, we had these sorts of discussions.
Q: What did you do with the talking points? How did you relay them to Linda Tripp?
A: I took a copy of them to her.
Q: And how were the arrangements made to give her that copy?
A: She had told me she was going to go see her attorney, Kirby, that afternoon and was going to talk to him about signing an affidavit, which is why this was all generated. And so I offered to drive her there so that we could just talk on the way because we -- we had some time to talk that morning, but not as much as I wanted.
Q: Who was driving? You were driving?
Q: And Linda has the talking points in her hands?
A: I handed them to her in the parking lot of the Pentagon.
Q: Did she read them?
A: Yes, she did.
Q: What was she saying or doing as she was reading them?
A: She was going through it and she was sort of reading and going, "Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Well, that's true. Oh, good point."
I think she may have said, "Oh, these are --this is really --that's true." You know. "Did you write this?" Sort of a thing.
Q: Okay. What did you think would happen after you dropped the talking points off to Linda and then you dropped Linda off? How were things left, I guess is another way to ask that question.
A: I believe that it was in the car ride home that she said -- made some comment to me about -- that, well, she -- she feels okay -- and this might have been on the 13th when she said this, she feels okay about, you know, kind of not telling the truth or being vague on the truth when she talks to me, but then when she doesn't talk to me, she -- her mind starts to wander to different things, so I just remember feeling -- oh, like I had to hold her hand through everything and I constantly had to talk to her. So I may have said, "I'll call you tonight" or something like that.
Q: Have you ever talked to Bruce Lindsey?
A: No. I may have said hello them in the hall, but I --but -- just in passing.
Q: Did you ever talk with the President about the talking points?
Q: Did you ever talk with anyone at Bob Bennett's firm about the talking points?
Q: Did you ever talk with anyone associated with the White House in any way about the talking points?
A: No. And that would include Mr. Jordan.
Q: Okay. Let's turn our attention, then, to the next day, which is January 15th. Did Betty call you that day about a call she had received from Mike Isikoff?
Q: Okay. Tell us about that telephone call.
A: I had learned earlier from my attorney that the Paula Jones people had -- had -- well, I guess my attorney had asked me something about if I had ever received any courier packages from the White House and I hadn't, but I told him I did -- I did send things to Betty and he said, oh, well, he had heard -- I think through -- maybe through Bennett's people -- Mr. Bennett's firm, the attorneys, I'm sorry, I don't mean to be so informal, that there was some issue with these courier -- with a courier service.
So, I called the courier service and was unable to find out that the records could be subpoenaed and then I spoke with Betty later that day and she told me that -- that Michael Isikoff had called her or had called for her intern and Betty had answered the phone and in the course of that he asked her about the courier, my sending things to her through a courier.
And that she sort of said she didn't really remember or know what he was talking about and that he'd get back to her. Or she'd get back to him. I'm sorry.
Q: And then she called you and related this to you?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: What was your reaction to that?
A: I was very shocked and very -- feeling very strange, that somehow this was closing in more and I -- I didn't know how they could have gotten this information about the courier because there was -- the first person that I thought of that knew about the courier was Linda and the only other person I thought of was this gentleman in my office who was a Clinton hater, Mark Huffman. So, I thought that maybe -- I thought, well, maybe he had been the one who had sort of turned me, trying to cause trouble.
Q: All right. What did you and Betty talk about doing in response to the Iskikoff calls?
A: The president was out of town that day and so I think she said she was going to try to get in touch with the President and I believe that Betty and I may have discussed that, you know, they were -- the courier packages were always sent to her and that some of the things were for her, you know.
Q: Did Vernon Jordan come up?
A: Yes. I know later -- and I don't know if maybe she mentioned to me earlier in the day that she wanted to try to get in touch with Mr. Jordan, but I do know that -- that later in the evening Betty called me and asked me if I could give her a ride to Mr. Jordan's office because Bob, her husband, had the car that day and it was raining. So --
Q: So you drove her to Vernon Jordan's.
Q: Describe what happened when you drop her off.
A: Well, actually, I parked the car and I decided to wait for her downstairs in the restaurant. I think it's The Front Page. And she went up to Mr. Jordan's office and was there maybe 15, 20 minutes. I'm not very good with time.
Q: Why didn't she just take a taxi there? It's a three, four dollar taxi ride up there.
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. How long did you wait?
THE WITNESS: You know, I need to use the restroom.
MR. EMMICK: Okay.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
MR. EMMICK: The witness needs a break.
THE FOREPERSON: Yes.
MR. EMMICK: Okay. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Two minutes.
MR. EMMICK: That's all right.
(Witness excused. Witness recalled.)
MR. WISENBERG: Let the record reflect the witness has reentered the grand jury room.
Madam Foreperson, do we have a quorum?
THE FOREPERSON: Yes.
MR. WISENBERG: Any unauthorized persons present?
THE FOREPERSON: None.
MR. WISENBERG: Anything you want to say?
THE FOREPERSON: Monica Lewinsky, I just wanted to let you know that you are still under oath.
THE WITNESS: Really?
THE FOREPERSON: Mm-hmm. Yes, mean.
BY MR. WISENBERG:
Q: I have, I hope, just one or two questions about your proffer.
Q: Your written proffer. Can you grab a hold of that?
Q: And what are we calling that? That is ML-1.
(Grand Jury Exhibit No. ML-1 was marked
BY MR. WISENBERG:
Q: If you'll take a look at page 4, paragraph 4, that has to do with the President's call to you.
Q: At two a.m. on the 17th of December telling you, among other things, that you're on the witness list, correct?
Q: Going to the middle portion, starting with "When asked." "When asked what to do if she was subpoenaed, the President suggested she could sign an affidavit and try to satisfy their inquiry and not be deposed."
Q: The next sentence says, "In general, Ms. L. should say she visited the White House to see Ms. Currie and, on occasion, when working at the White House, she brought him letters when no one else was around."
Have you read that correctly? Have I read that sentence correctly?
Q: Okay. And I think you have earlier described that as a -- maybe not in these exact words, but you saw it as a continuation on his part of the pre-established pattern of things he had said in the past. Is that correct?
Q: All right. And would you agree with me that that is --that if you said that to the Jones people or to anybody else that that is misleading in a sense because it doesn't tell the whole story of what you were doing when you visited the President.
Q: Take a look at -- then I would like you to take a look at page 10, I think it's page 10, it's paragraph 10, whatever page it is.
Q: Mine's cut off. It's the last -- I think it's the last page.
Q: I'll read it. "Ms. L. had a physically intimate relationship with the President. Neither the President nor Mr. Jordan or anyone on their behalf asked or encouraged Ms. L. to lie." I would like you for us to reconcile if you can that statement in your proffer with statements like the ones in paragraph 4 where you talk about specific things the President said or did that were kind of continuations of this pattern.
A: Sure. Gosh. I think to me that if -- if the President had not said the Betty and letters cover, let's just say, if we refer to that, which I'm talking about in paragraph 4, page 4, I would have known to use that.
So to me, encouraging or asking me to lie would have --you know, if the President had said, "Now, listen. You better not say anything about this relationship, you better not tell them the truth, you better not --"
For me, the best way to explain how I feel what happened was, you know, no one asked or encouraged me to lie, but no one discouraged me either.
Q: Okay. so you said what you would have done if the President hadn't said that, but he did say that, what you mentioned in paragraph 4, correct?
Q: And I guess -- and you had a conversation with him about what to do gifts that you both knew were under subpoena, then you get the call from Betty. Those things happened. When we discussed this on Monday in the proffer session, I think you said something to the effect of or that in paragraph 10 you were being pretty literal. Is that accurate? When you say that no one encouraged you -- told you or encouraged you to lie?
A: Yes and no. I mean, I think I also said that Monday that it wasn't as if the President called me and said, "You know, Monica, you're on the witness list, this is going to be really hard for us, we're going to have to tell the truth and be humiliated in front of the entire world about what we've done," which I would have fought him on probably. That was different.
And by him not calling me and saying that, you know, I knew what that meant. So I -- I don't see any -- I don't see any disconnect between paragraph 10 and paragraph 4 on the page. Does that answer your question?
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: Did you understand all along that he would deny the relationship also?
A: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Q: And when you say you understood what it meant when he didn't say, "Oh, you know, you must tell the truth," what did you understand that to mean?
A: That -- that -- as we had on every other occasion and every other instance of this relationship, we would deny it.
MR. WISENBERG: That's all I have on that. And probably not anything else. Maybe.
MS. IMMERGUT: I had a couple of quick questions.
THE WITNESS: Sure.
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: Back for just a moment to January 15th with the visit when you took Betty to Vernon Jordan after she had been called by Michael Isikoff.
Q: Did you ever tell Ms. Currie that you had been called by Michael Isikoff?
Q: Had you ever been called by Michael Isikoff before January 15th?
A: No. I'm trying to remember now -- I know that I had seen the Newsweek thing light up on my caller ID, but I don't remember if that was around that time or if that was later, once the scandal started.
Q: Do you recall any calls from Michael Isikoff that you would have told Betty about, calling about gifts from the President?
A: No. Absolutely not.
Q: You mentioned, obviously, that you've given the President several gifts. Have you given him any ties.
Q: How many ties have you given him, just approximately?
Q: Have you had any conversations with the President about wearing your ties?
A: Almost all of our conversations included something about my ties.
Q: Could you just briefly describe what things that you've said to him and he to you about wearing the ties?
A: I used to bug him about wearing one of my ties because then I knew I was close to his heart.
Q: And did he ever say anything about -- after he had one of your ties or to alert you when he had worn any of your ties?
A: Yes, there were several occasions.
Q: And what kind of thing would he say to you?
A: "Did you see I wore your tie the other day?"
Q: So was he aware based on things you had told him that you would be looking out for when he would wear ties on various occasions?
MS. IMMERGUT: I'd like to show you now what's marked as Grand Jury Exhibits ML-8, 9 and 10.
(Grand Jury Exhibits No. ML-8, ML-9 and
ML-10 were marked for identification.)
MS. IMMERGUT: And, unfortunately, I don't have copies yet for the grand jury because we got them at the last --
MR. WISENBERG: I'll pass them around afterwards.
MS. IMMERGUT: Okay. And I'll spread them out for you here.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: Directing your attention first to ML-8, it's a photograph of the President, obviously. Do you recognize the tie that he's wearing in that photograph?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Had you actually seen that on television on June 24, 1998?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Do you recall what that's in relation to or what event is being depicted on that photograph?
A: He was leaving for China.
Q: And now directing your attention to Exhibit 9, do you know what that's a photograph of?
A: I don't know where it's from, but it's the President wearing my tie.
Q: And this one states it's Monday, July 6, 1998. Do you remember watching any of the media on that date?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: And do you remember seeing him wearing your tie on that date?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Do you remember what event was taking place on that date that he was wearing your tie?
A: I don't, but I just saw it says "Medicare costs," so --
Q: Okay. And then finally, ML-10. Do you recognize what that's a photograph of?
Q: And what is that?
A: The President wearing the same tie.
Q: And do you know what date that is?
A: Date? It was a few days after, he wore the tie when he came back from China, so it's July 9th.
Q: Okay. And what -- I guess -- did you reach any conclusions from the fact that he was wearing your tie on those days?
A: I -- -- I think -- the first time he wore the tie, I thought maybe it was a coincidence, but I didn't really think so. And then when he wore it when he came back from China on the 6th, I thought maybe it was a reminder of July 4th, because that had been the first workday after July 4th and we had had a really intense, emotional meeting July 4th of '97. And then when he wore it a few days later, I thought he's trying to say something. I mean, the President doesn't wear the same tie twice in one week, so -- I didn't know what it meant, but it was some sort of a reminder to me.
MS. IMMERGUT: Okay. Nothing further on that.
BY MR. WISENBERG:
Q: This is well after the scandal broke, is that correct?
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: This is this summer, right?
BY MR. WISENBERG:
Q: You've told us something about seeing a picture of Nelvis, Bayani Nelvis, I think coming to the grand jury.
Q: Can you tell us -- and you noticed something about some neck wear her was wearing?
A: I think it was on Nel's maybe third appearance or his last appearance. He was wearing the first tie that I ever gave to the President.
Q: Did you know that the President had ever given that tie to Mr. Nelvis?
Q: And what is -- can you recall the last time the President had ever worn that tie?
A: No. I didn't see him every day, so -- I mean, I know he -- I know some of the times he wore that tie, but I don't know the last time he wore the tie.
Q: Okay. Is there any question in your mind that the President knew that both these ties, the one that we're putting around pictures of and the one that Nel wore to the grand jury, were ties you have given him?
A: Not in my mind, but I can't -- I can't answer that.
MR. WISENBERG: Okay.
MR. EMMICK: There's a question? Yes.
A JUROR: Did you know the President after a while gave his ties to the people who worked for him? Did you know that?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did know that.
MR. WISENBERG: Pardon me just a minute.
MR. WISENBERG: I'm going to ask the witness to be excused very briefly and we'll possibly call you back in a couple of minutes.
(The witness was excused.)
(Whereupon, at 4:45 p.m., the taking of testimony in the presence of a full quorum of the Grand Jury was concluded.)
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