From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 3 The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.
Q: Okay. How much about your relationship with the president did you tell Linda Tripp?
A: A lot. Most everything.
Q: Okay. And did you tell her about the sexual encounters that you had with him?
Q: Did you also tell her about the emotional encounters and the gifts?
Q: Were you truthful about the relationship when you told Linda Tripp about it?
A: Most of the time, but sometimes -- there were occasions when I wasn't truthful.
Q: Were you truthful about the sexual parts of the relationship with her?
Q: And what about the emotional component, when you would tell her -- and why don't I say before December of 1997, were you truthful about the emotional components of the relationship?
Q: I'm actually done with my questioning on that. Do you want to break now or continue to different subjects?
A: A five-minute break? could I --
FOREPERSON: We can take a ten-minute break.
MS. IMMERGUT: Okay. A ten-minute break.
MR. EMMICK: A ten-minute break.
MS. IMMERGUT: Would that be all right?
MR. EMMICK: That's fine.
(WITNESS EXCUSED. WITNESS RECALLED.)
MS. IMMERGUT: Madam Foreperson, are there any unauthorized persons present?
FOREPERSON: No, there are none.
MS. IMMERGUT: Do we have a quorum?
FOREPERSON: Yes, we do. Ms. Lewinsky, I would like to remind you that you are still under oath.
WITNESS: Thank you.
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: Ms. Lewinsky, the grand jurors had a few follow-up questions --
Q: -- for you that I wanted to ask you before we move on to other topics. You mentioned that on the occasions where you had sexual contact with that were described, sexual contact with the President, that it occurred in the hallway, as you described, or sometimes in the back study.
Q: Why did --
JUROR: Pardon me.
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: Oh, excuse me. Why did you choose the hallway?
A: Because I believe it was -- it was really more the president choosing the hallway, I think, and it was -- there weren't any windows there. It was the most secluded of all the places in the back office. Well, that's not true. The bathroom is the most secluded, I guess, because you can close the door.
Q: And did you sometimes have sexual encounters in the bathroom?
Q: And then next to the bathroom, would you say that the hallway is...
Q: ... off the study is the next most...
A: He has a bad back and so I think a lot of times we ended up just sort of standing there because he could close the door to the bathroom and lean up against the bathroom and then he was -- I guess it made his back feel better and also made him a little shorter. So...
Q: Did the president ever tell you he was concerned about being seen?
A: I'm sure that came up in conversation.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: Did he ever indicate to you looking outside that he might be concerned, for example?
A: Yes, yes.
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: Can you describe that?
A: Sure. I think the one that comes to mind was actually December 28th of last year when I was getting my Christmas kiss. And he was kissing me in the doorway between the back study, or the office, and the hallway, and I sort of opened my eyes and he was looking out the window with his eyes wide open while he was kissing me and then I got mad because it wasn't very romantic. And then so then he said, "Well, I was just looking to see to make sure no one was out there"
Q: Can you generalize about the locations where you had your sexual encounters with the president?
A: I'd say they mainly took place in that hallway, but there were occasions on which we were intimate in the office and then also in the bathroom.
Q: Okay. And when you say the office, do you mean the back study?
Q: So not the Oval Office?
A: No, no, we were never physically intimate in the Oval Office.
Q: Okay. Did you notice whether doors were closed when you were physically intimate with him in the back study or hallway?
A: No, he always -- well, I'm not sure about the door going in the dining room but I know that the door leading from the back hallway to the -- into the Oval Office was always kept ajar so that he could hear if someone was coming.
BY MR. WISENBERG:
Q: How ajar? How much ajar?
A: Maybe this much (indicating).
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: You're indicating six to eight inches, something like that?
A: I'm not very good with that.
Q: A foot or less, something like that?
A: A foot or less. I guess that's -- I would assume that's --
Q: Enough so that one could hear more easily what was going on in the next room?
A: Mm-hmm. Right, or if someone came in to holler for him.
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: Now directing your attention back to February 28th, -- 1997, the day that you wore the blue cocktail dress --
A: It's not a cocktail dress.
Q: Okay, I'm sorry.
A: No, that's Okay. I'm a little defensive about this subject. I'm sorry.
Q: How would you describe the dress?
A: It's a dress from the Gap. It's a work dress. It's a casual dress.
Q: With respect to that dress...
A: Right, I'm sorry.
Q: ... you mentioned that you believe that there could be semen on it. Could you describe what you did with the President that led you to believe that?
A: We were in the bathroom and -- can I close my eyes so I don't have to...
Q: Well, you have to speak up. That's the only...
A: Okay. We were in the bathroom and I was performing oral sex. I'm sorry, this is embarrassing. And usually he doesn't want to -- he didn't want to come to completion.
A: Yes. And this has sort of been a subject that we had talked about many times before and he was always saying it had issues to do with trust and not knowing me well enough at first and then not feeling right about things, and not that he said this but I took away from that to sort of mean - that maybe in his mind if he didn't come then maybe it wasn't -- he didn't need to feel guilty about that, that maybe with it not coming to completion that that was easier for him to rationalize.
And it was on this occasion that since we hadn't been alone together since April 7th of '96 that after we had engaged in oral sex for a while and he stopped me as he normally did, I said to him, you know -- this is so embarrassing, I'm sorry. I said to him, you know, I really -- I want to make you come. I mean, this is...
Q: Okay. Why don't you just describe the position that you were in once he had tried to stop you. What did you do that led you to believe there might get semen on your dress?
A: I told him that I really cared about him and he told me that he didn't want to get addicted to me and he didn't want me to get addicted to him, and we embraced at that point and that's -- I mean, it was -- it's just a little tiny spot down here, and a little tiny spot up here and --
Q: Okay. And to get -- when you're pointing down here, you mean sort of your right lower hip area?
A: Well, one of my -- I don't know if it was my right or my left, but lower hip area.
Q: Okay. And the chest area would be the second place that you thought you might have gotten some?
Q: And is that from when you -- when you did actually continue to perform oral sex on him later?
A: I believe so.
Q: Did you ever see something that you thought was semen on the dress that led you to conclude that?
A: The next time I went to wear the dress.
Q: So at the time you didn't notice anything on the dress?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Okay. What happened then the next time you wore the dress that led you to conclude that?
A: Well, I also -- can I say here? I also -- I think I wore the dress out to dinner that night, so which is why I'm not sure that that's what it is.
A: So it could be spinach dip or something. I don't know. I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?
Q: Sure. When was the -- when was it that you at least began to believe that maybe there was semen on the dress?
A: I really don't remember when it was the next time I went to wear the dress, but I gained weight so I couldn't wear the dress and it didn't fit. And I'm not a very organized person. I don't clean my clothes until I'm going to wear them again.
Q: Did you notice there was something on the dress?
A: Yes. And at that point I noticed it and I kind of thought, oh, this is dirty, it needs to get cleaned. And then I remembered that I had worn it the last time I saw the president, and I believe it was at that point that I thought to myself, oh, no. And it was --it...
Q: So at that point, you weren't positive what it was. And why did you tell Linda that you thought there was semen on the dress?
A: I think it just sort of came up in conversation somehow and then -- as kind of this funny, gross thing. And then the next time she was at my house I still couldn't fit into the dress and believe that I said to her, oh, look, you want to see this? You know, this is what I was talking about.
And but I just want to say because I know everybody here reads the newspapers and listens to TV that I didn't keep this dress as a souvenir. I was going to wear it on Thanksgiving and my cousins, who I always try to look skinny for because they are all skinny -- and I know it sounds stupid. And when I told Linda I was thinking about wearing the dress, she discouraged me. She brought me one of her jackets from her thinner closet. And so it wasn't a souvenir. I was going to clean it. I was going to wear it again.
Q: Different topic. Where was Nel when you were -- or do you have any idea where Nel was when you were in the hallway or the study with the president?
A: On which --
Q: On any of the occasions. I mean, would Nel be around generally?
A: There were some occasions that -- very few occasions, I think, that Nel was there -- was at the White House. And I don't know where he would have necessarily -- I think he was in the pantry on the 28th of February.
Q: Do you know where he was on any of the other occasions? And, again, where you had sexual contact with the president.
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did you ever use hand towels in the bathroom to wipe your lipstick?
A: Hand towels, no.
Q: What about tissues?
A: I believe I used a tissue sometimes to wipe off my lipstick.
WISENBERG: Karen, can I ask something really quick?
MS. IMMERGUT: Sure.
BY MR. WISENBERG:
Q: How about, do you think Nel would have been around on renaissance -- right before the departure for renaissance weekend?
A: New Year's Eve '95?
A: Yes, he was.
Q: Also, did you ever show -- did -- I don't -- it's my bad. Did you ever show the dress to Linda Tripp?
Q: You mentioned that the president called you on a number of occasions. Some of those occasions included phone sex. Did he indicate where he was when he was placing those calls?
A: Not always, but sometimes.
Q: And where did he say he was when he did say where he was?
A: At home.
Q: Meaning the White House residence?
Q: Where else might he have placed calls from?
A: There were, I think, two times that he placed calls from the campaign term, from Florida I think.
Q: Do you know whether he sometimes placed calls from the Oval Office or other places?
A: Yes, yes.
Q: How do you know that?
A: Sometimes he would mention it and say he was in the office. I know one time I said -- I knew he was in the office and I asked him if he was in the back or could he go in the back.
Q: Did he not only call you, what, at your home but also call you at your office?
A: When I was working at the White House, yes.
Q: But not while you were working at the Pentagon?
A: He never directly called me when I was working at the Pentagon.
Q: When you say didn't directly call, what do you mean?
A: I mean he -- there were, I think, maybe two occasions when I was working at the Pentagon when Betty placed a call for him, and when that didn't occur he picked up the phone and dialed the phone number himself.
Q: When he placed calls to you when you were at Leg Affairs, or Legislative Affairs, excuse me, was there anything that indicated on your caller ID?
A: Yes. When he called from the Oval Office, the phones have a caller ID up at the top, and when he calls from the Oval Office it says POTUS and when he calls from the residence it has an asterisk.
Q: And did you ever discuss with him the fact that you had POTUS on your ID?
Q: Tell us about that.
A: I think one time when he called and I picked up the phone I said something that indicated to him that I knew who it was. And he said, "Well, how did you know it was me?" And I told him, "Well, don't you know that it lights up POTUS when you call from the Oval Office?" And he said, "No, I didn't know that." So I thought that was funny.
Q: When you --
A: And he made an effort one time to call me from the residence on a line and called and said, "Did it show up a phone number instead of -- So it had. He seemed proud of himself.
Q: All right. You had mentioned earlier that on, I think it was February 28th, Steve Goodin spoke with Betty and the President about being -- about him being alone with you.
Q: Could you give us a little more detail about what you saw and what you later learned and where you later learned it so that we can figure out what you know from personal knowledge?
A: Okay. What I saw was Steve Goodin and Ms. Currie going into the Oval Office. I think --
Q: Where are you at this time?
A: Oh, I'm sorry. I was in Ms. Currie's office and I was waiting with Ms. Currie. And I believe Stephen was there at some point and he might have gone into the Oval Office first and then called Ms. Currie in a few minutes after or maybe the president called her in after. And they spoke sort of...
A JUROR: (COUGHING)
WITNESS: Do you want some water? Oh, okay so --
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: Was there anyone else in the Oval Office, as far as you know?
A: It's possible I think I might have seen Rahm Emanuel in there at some point, but I'm not really sure that he was included in this conversation.
Q: So they go into the Oval Office and what do you next see or hear?
A: I believe Betty came out to get me. I was really nervous because I hadn't been alone with the president since the elections so I was focused -- I was kind of internal, focused on being nervous.
Q: Betty came out to get you and what did the two of you do?
A: The three of us went into the back office.
Q: You had mentioned earlier that you later came to learn that there was a discussion between them, between them, about you and the president and whether you should be alone.
Tell us when you learned that approximately and what you learned.
A: I think I learned it, I believe, maybe shortly after -- not on that day, maybe within the next few weeks, guess -- that Stephen had said to the president or maybe had said to Betty, you know, she can't be alone with him. So, and I don't recall if I learned that from Ms. Currie or from Nel.
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