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From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 4

The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.

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Q: But it -- was it when, based on what you were told, it was a conversation between -- it was a conversation in which Goodin, MS. Currie and the president were there?

A: Correct.


Q: Let's focus a little bit about the Presidential aides. You mentioned Steve Goodin. Where are the aides at the time you are having your encounters, if we can call that, with the president?

A: Most of the time they weren't -- they weren't there. They weren't at the White House.

Q: And how was that arranged?

A: When I was working in Legislative Affairs, I don't think --I don't know if it was ever verbally spoken but it was understood between the president and myself that most of the -- most people weren't in on the weekends so there was -- it would be safer to do that then. And then after I left the White House, that was sort of always a concern that Betty and I had just because she knew and I knew that a lot of people there didn't like me.

Q: So is it fair to say then that the Presidential aides, whether they be Steve Goodin or Andrew Friendly or whoever it might be, were not around at the time?

A: Correct. They may have been but --

Q: Mm-hmm. I wonder if you could expand a little bit on the nature of your relationship with Betty and then the nature of your relationship with Nel, and specifically what we mean to ask is to what extent were these relationships genuine relationships and to what extent were they, in part, based on an interest in cultivating their friendship because of your relationship with the president?

A: I think that they -- both of them started out probably at the latter of what you said, as maybe a function of making my relationship with the President easier, or for me, I guess, getting information, but that they both came to have a very genuine component to them. I still care very deeply about Betty.

Q: When you talk about getting information, could you expand on what you mean by that?

A: I think sometimes if it was from Ms. Currie finding out what the president's schedule was, when he might be around, what might be a good time to come to talk to him to let him know something.

With Nel, Nel and I developed a started during the furlough and I thought that he was a really nice guy and didn't get treated correctly or properly, I guess. And the kind of information, he sort of just would give me information about the president. I mean, I don't think that was the only -- that wasn't the only component of the friendship, but that was a component of it.

Q: You have discussed how Betty helped arrange for you to come visit the president, especially in 1997, I think it would be fair to say.

A: Yes.

Q: When those arrangements were made, who initiated the arrangements? How did they start off? Did you ask? Did the President ask? Did Betty ask?

A: I'd say most of the time it was probably me asking -- either asking the President directly or asking him through Betty or through sending a note of some sort. And there were occasions that he initiated, so it would come through Betty.

Q: All right. Let me ask you the following question. You have described the ways that Betty helped let you in --

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: -- facilitate the relationship, if you will. Do you think Betty Currie knew about your relationship with the president?

A: I don't know. It's possible she could have gleaned that from witnessing that the -- you know, that the President was having a relationship that caused -- with a 25 year-old woman or, at the time, younger -- you know, that made me 50 emotional. But I really can't answer that question.

Q: She saw you under circumstances where she realized you and the President had an emotional tie.

A: I believe so. I'm not really -- I'm not really comfortable sort of answering questions about what -- you know, what Betty knew because --

Q: Well, then let me focus more on what Betty was in a position to see.

A: Okay.

Q: Was Betty in a position to see that you and the president visited frequently and had a strong emotional attachment?

A: I believe so, yes.


Q: Did you ever expressly tell Betty about the relationship?

A: What aspect of the relationship?

Q: Well, let me separate it out for you.

A: Okay.

Q: Did you ever expressly tell Betty about the emotional aspect of the relationship?

A: I believe I characterized that to her.

Q: Did you ever expressly tell Betty about the sexual the relationship?

A: No, I don't believe so.

Q: Let me ask the question, why not?

A: Because it's not appropriate. I mean, I think -- I don't think people necessarily talk about these things. I mean, there is a difference between a relationship that you have with someone who is sort of involved in a situation, and then the kind of relationship you have with a friend whom you talk to. I think with -- a little bit with Betty's age and it wasn't clear to me that the -- you know, the President didn't tell her so, if he didn't tell her, why should I tell her.

Q: Let me ask similar questions about Nel. Do you think Nel knew?

A: Nel knew --

Q: About the emotional aspect of the relationship?

A: Yes, I think so.

Q: Is that based on what you told him or what you think he must have seen, or both?

A: I think probably based more on what I told him.

Q: Do you think Nel knew about the sexual aspect of the relationship?

A: We never directly discussed it, so I don't know if -- I don't know how to answer that.

Q: Did he ever say things to you that made you think that he must know about the sexual aspect of the relationship?

A: Not that I remember.

Q: You mentioned earlier, perhaps an obvious thing, that you were alone with the president on the times that you had sexual contact with the president.

A: Yes.

Q: Were there also when you were alone with the president that you did not have sexual contact with the president?

A: Mm-hmm, yes.

Q: Can you give us sort of a general description about how those encounters occurred and where they occurred?

A: Okay. There were numerous that ranged from the beginning of our relationship till the end of our relationship.

Q: Were some of them brief? Were some of them substantial in length?

A: Mm-hmm, yes.

Q: Where within the White House would those have occurred?

A: One occurred in the Oval Office and then the others occurred -- oh, that's not true. Two occurred in the Oval Office and the others were in the back study area.

I should also just -- maybe I could just add right now that every -- that every time I had a visit with the President when I was working there -- not after, but when 1 was working there -- we usually would -- we'd start in the back and we'd talk and that was where we were physically intimate, and we'd usually end up, kind of the pillow talk of it, I guess, was sitting in the Oval Office talking. So there's --


Q: And, again, when you say when you started in the back, that could either be the hallway or the back?

A: Correct, yes.


Q: I would like to ask you some questions about any steps you took to try to keep your relationship with the President secret.

A: A lot.

Q: All right. Well, why don't we just ask the question open-endedly and we'll follow up.

A: Okay. I'm sure, as everyone can imagine, that this is a kind of relationship that you keep quiet, and we both wanted to be careful being in the White House. Whenever I would visit him during -- when -- during my tenure at the White House, we always -- unless it was sort of a chance meeting on a weekend and then we ended up back in the office, we would usually plan that I would either bring papers, or one time we had actually accidentally bumped into each other in the hall and went from that way, so then we planned to do that again because that seemed to work well. But we always -- there was always some sort of a cover.

Q: When you say that you planned to bring papers, did you ever discuss with the president the fact that you would try to use that as a cover?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. What did the two of you say in those conversations?

A: I don't remember exactly. I mean, in general, it might have been something like me saying, well, maybe once I got there kind of saying, "Oh, gee, here are your letters," wink, wink, wink, and him saying, "Okay, that's good," or --

Q: And as part of this concealment, if you will, did you carry around papers when you went to the visit the President while you worked at Legislative Affairs?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Did you ever actually bring him papers to sign as part of business?

A: No.

Q: Did you actually bring him papers at all?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. And tell us a little about that.

A: It varied. Sometimes it was just actual-copies of letters. One time I wrote a really stupid poem. Sometimes I put gifts in the folder which I brought.

Q: And even on those occasions, was there a legitimate business purpose to that?

A: No.

Q: Did you have any discussions with the President about what you would say about your frequent visits with him after you had left Legislative Affairs?

A: Yes.

Q: Yes. What was that about?

A: I think we -- we discussed backwards route of it was that Betty that -- you know, the always needed to be the one to clear me in so that, you know, I could always say I was coming to see Betty.

Q: And is there some truth in the notion that you were coming to see Betty?

A: Coming to see Betty, I don't know. Did I -- I saw Betty on every time that I was there.

Q: What was your purpose though in going --

A: My purpose was -- most of the time my purpose was to see the president, but there were some times when I did just go see Betty but the president wasn't in the office.

Q: When the president was in the office, was your purpose in going there to see the president?

A: Yes.

Q: What about the writing of things down on paper? Was there any discussion between you and the president about the risks of writing things down and whether you should write things down?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. Tell us about that.

A: There were on some occasions when I sent him cards or notes that I wrote things that he deemed too personal to put on paper just in case something ever happened, if it got lost getting there or someone else opened it. So there were several times when he remarked to me, you know, you shouldn't put that on paper.

Q: We'll have occasion to get into some details about that in a bit. I don't know how to ask this question more delicately, so I'll just ask you. Did you take any steps to try to be careful with how loud you might be in sexual matters?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. Can you tell us, as discreetly as you can and as -- about that?

A: I think we were both aware of the volume and sometimes I'd use my hand -- I bit my hand -- so that I wouldn't make any noise.

Q: All right, that's fine. Let me ask another question. Did you try to take -- are you okay?

A: Yeah, this is just embarrassing.

Q: Did you try to take different routes in and out of the Oval Office area as part of your way of concealing the relationship?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Could you tell us about that?

A: I made an effort on my own to go out a different door than the door that I came in so that if there was a guard that was on duty in the front of the Oval Office he might see me going in but a different guard would see me leave, so no one would know exactly how long I had been in there.

Q: Did you try to do that most of the time, all of the time?

A: I'd say 90 percent of the time. I mean, I can't really recall a time that I didn't do that, but it's possible. That was the pattern.

Q: Were there some people that you tried to specifically avoid when you were visiting with the president?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. Who were they, please?

A: Pretty much everybody but Betty.

Q: Okay. What about, for example, Nancy Hernreich?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. And how would you take steps to avoid Nancy Hernreich?

A: Generally, coming in on the weekend. This is after I left?

Q: Yes.

A: Okay. After I left the White House it was coming in on the weekend or sometimes we -- I tried to see him but I don't think it actually ever occurred on Tuesday nights because Ms. Hernreich has yoga, I think -- I believe.


Q: Who told you that she had yoga?

A: Ms. Currie.


Q: Any discussion with the president about trying to make sure that there are fewer people around when you were to visit?

A: When I worked in Legislative Affairs, I think that was sort of the understanding that the weekend was the -- there weren't a lot of people around. And there were times - when I think that the president might have said, oh, there are too many people here because there was some big issue or some big event happening maybe.

Q: Were there any occasions when you tried to make . arrangements to see the President but for some reason or another Betty was not in a position to let you in?

A: Sure, I think so.

Q: Any occasions when you had actually planned to visit and then for some reason or another she wasn't there, that you remember?

A: No, not that I remember.

Q: What about throwing away notes that you had written to the president? Was there any discussion of throwing out the notes or any notations that you would write on the notes to remind him to throw them out?

A: Yes, I think that I may have had a discussion with the president about him throwing things away, I think, or making sure that they're not there. I know one specific occasion in one of the notes that I sent him I made a joke that really was reminding him not to --to make sure he threw the -- make sure he threw it away.

Q: I've asked you a number of questions having to do with how you tried to keep the relationship secret. Let me ask, did you tell some people about the relationship?

A: Unfortunately, yes.

Q: All right. Could you tell us some of the people that you've told about the relationship?

A: Linda Tripp, Catherine Davis, Neysa Erbland, Dale Young, Ashley Raines, and my mom and my aunt. Everybody knew a different amount of -- had a different amount of information.

Q: Natalie Ungvari?

A: Oh, Natalie Ungvari, yes.

Q: Did you tell any of your -- any counselors or therapists of any kind about your relationship?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: All right. Would you tell us who they would be?

A: Dr. Irene Kassorla, and I believe it's Dr. Kathy Estep.

Q: When you talked about your relationship with the president with these people, did you lie about your relationship?

A: No. I may have not told them every detail, but I don't believe I ever lied. Oh, about the -- oh, wait, do you mean the doctors or was that in general?

Q: I meant in general.

A: Well, there were -- about my relationships -- I'm sorry, could you be more specific?

Q: Sure. You listed a number of people that you had told about your relationship with the president.

A: Right.

Q: I'm just trying to figure out if you told the truth to those people when you described the relationship.

A: Yes. There were some occasions when I wasn't . . truthful about certain things, but not having to do with, I think, the general relationship. Does that make sense?

Q: Expand on that just a little. I'm just not sure.

A: Well, I think with Linda Tripp, I mean there were times that I was not truthful with her. I mean, I didn't know if that's what you were encompassing by saying relationship or not.

Q: Let's put Linda Tripp aside for a bit because I think I know what you have in mind.

A: Right.

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