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From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 5

The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.

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Q: Put Linda Tripp aside for a bit. Were you truthful with the others about your description of the relationship?

A: Yes.

Q: And since you mentioned Linda Tripp, were there occasions toward the end of, I guess it would be December or January, when you said some things to Linda Tripp that were not true?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. We'll have a chance to get to that in a bit.

A: Okay.

Q: What I would like to turn to next is the -- is April of 1996 and your transfer from the White House to the Department of Defense. When were you first told about the fact that you were being terminated from Legislative Affairs?

A: On the 5th -- 1 think it was the 5th of April, Friday.

Q: Did you later have a telephone conversation with the president about your being terminated?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: When was that?

A: On the 7th, on Easter.

Q: Easter Sunday, April 7th of 1996?

A: Correct.

Q: Would you tell us first what your reaction was when you were told that you were going to be terminated from Legislative Affairs?

A: My initial reaction was that I was never going to see the president again. I mean, my relationship with him would be over.

Q: You did not want to go to the Pentagon?

A: No.

Q: When you spoke with the president on April 7th, did you call him or did he call you?

A: He called me.

Q: Would you tell us how that telephone conversation -proceeded and then we'll talk about the meeting.

A: Okay. I had asked him how -- if he was doing okay with Ron Brown's death, and then after we talked about that for a little bit I told him that my last day was Monday. And he was -- he seemed really upset and sort of asked me to tell him what had happened. So I did and I was crying and I asked him if I could come see him, and he said that that was fine.

Q: Did you go over to the White House?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: About what time of day, if you remember?

A: I think it was around 6:00 p.m.

Q: Who let you in?

A: I had a pass at the time.

Q: How long did you visit with the president that day?

A: Maybe a half an hour. I'm not very good with the time estimates.

Q: You've already had occasion to talk a little bit about the sexual aspect of your encounter with the president at that time and the phone call that you -- that came in in the midst. I'm not going to ask you about that. What I am going to ask you about instead was your discussions with the president about the termination and about what the future would hold for you.

A: He told me that he thought that my being transferred had something to do with him and that he was upset. He said, "Why do they have to take you away from me? I trust you." And then he told me --he looked at me and he said, "I promise you if I win in November I'll bring you back like that."

Q: How were things left at the end of that meeting?

A: I sort of ran out.

Q: Right. I guess what I mean by that -- I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be that specific.

A: Okay.

Q: At the end of the meeting, were you going to go to the Pentagon?

A: Well, he was going to see what he could do.

Q: I see. All right.

A: He said he'd try to see. He said he was going to ask -- try to find out what had happened. And I told him that I was going to be meeting with Ms. Hernreich the next day and he sort of said, "Let me see what I can do."

Q: Did you later have a telephone call with the president where you discussed what he had learned?

A: Yes.

Q: When was that?

A: The following Friday.

Q: That would have been then April 12th?

A: Yes, I think so.

Q: Did he call you or did you call him?

A: He called me.

Q: Where were you?

A: I was at home.

Q: How long was the telephone conversation?

A: Maybe about 20 minutes.

Q: Tell us what the two of you talked about.


A: He told me that he had asked Nancy and Marsha Scott to find out why I had been transferred, and that what he had come to learn was that Evelyn Lieberman had sort of spearheaded the transfer, and that she thought he was paying too much attention to me and I was paying too much attention to him and that she didn't necessarily care what happened after the election but everyone needed to be careful before the election.

Q: Did he offer any of his views about what you should do with respect to this Pentagon job?

A: He told me that I should try it out and if I didn't like it that he would get me a job on the campaign.

Q: What was your reaction to that?

A: I think I was disappointed. I didn't want to go to the Pentagon and I didn't really see what the difference on the campaign was going to be -- why I couldn't work -- if I could work at the campaign why I couldn't work at the White House. So --

Q: Did you start working at the Pentagon?

A: Yes.

Q: What position did you hold when you worked at the Pentagon?

A: Confidential Assistant to Ken Bacon, who is the Pentagon spokesman.

Q: Let's talk generally, if you will, about what sort of contact you had with the president during the rest of 1996. Did you see him in person?

Q: Just a bit more detail so that we can get a sense 786 --

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Okay. Did you see him in person very often?

A: No. I wasn't alone with him so when I saw him it was in some sort of event or group setting.

Q: Did you continue to have telephone contact with him?

A: Yes.

Q: And those telephone contacts are set out in the chart that we've put together --

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: -- with your assistance?

A: I guess. Yes. I'm sorry.

Q: Let's then just turn to the first part of 1997. The election is over. Did you talk with the president about getting you back to the White House?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. Would you tell us about-that?

A: I believe the first time I might have mentioned it to him was in January of '97 in a phone conversation, and he told me that he would talk to Bob Nash, who is the head of White House or presidential Personnel, I think it is, about bringing me back. In the next phone call he said he had spoken to Bob Nash and then -- do you want me to go as far as...

Q: Just a bit more detail so we can get a sense of what efforts you thought were being taken and whether you came to be disappointed with those efforts.

A: Very disappointed. He -- my understanding at first was that the ball had sort of been passed to Bob Nash to bring me -- to find a position for me to come back to the White House. I then came to learn maybe in March or so that the ball had been passed from Bob Nash to Marsha Scott. And then Marsha Scott was supposed to help me find a position at the White House, which didn't work out, then she was going to detail me to her office in the White House and then she later rescinded that offer. Keep going?

Q: Were you frustrated with all that?

A: Very frustrated.

Q: And did you communicate your frustration to the president?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Tell us about how you communicated your frustration to the president.

A: There were various occasions, different things that happened. Sometimes it was in our phone conversations, sometimes it was in a letter, sometimes it was in person.

Q: Let me direct your attention to July 3rd of 1997. Did you cause some sort of a communication to be made to the president on that day?

A: Yes.

Q: Tell us about that.

A: I had been trying to get in touch with him maybe since the latter part of June to discuss some of my meetings with Marsha Scott that had not gone as I had hoped they would and -- excuse me -- the president wasn't responding to me and wasn't returning my calls and wasn't responding to my notes. And I got very upset so I sat down that morning actually and scribbled out a long letter to him that talked about my frustrations and that he had promised to bring me back; if he wasn't going to bring me back that I -- you know, then could be help me find a job -- at that point I said in New York at the United Nations, and that I sort of dangled in front of him to remind him that if I wasn't coming back to the White House I was going to need to explain to my parents exactly why that wasn't happening.

Q: And what was your purpose in sending a letter of that kind to the president?

A: I think it was sort of had a few purposes, in that towards the end of the letter I softened up again and was back to my mushy self, but the purpose was -- one of the purposes, I think, was to kind of remind him that I had left the White House like a good girl in April of '96. A lot of other people might have made a really big stink and said that they weren't going to lose their job and they didn't want to do that and would have talked about what kind of relationship they had with the president so they didn't lose their job, and that I had been patient and had waited and that all of this had gone on. So I was frustrated.

Q: Did you -- how did you get this letter to the president?

A: I gave it to Ms. Currie.

Q: Did you meet with the president on the 3rd of July?

A: Mm-hmm. Yes, I'm sorry.

Q: Did you meet with the president on the 4th of July?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Would you tell us how that was arranged?

A: I spoke with Ms. Currie later that afternoon on the 3rd and she told me to come to the White House at 9 o'clock the next morning.

Q: You showed up at the White House?

A: (Nodding)

Q: What I would like to do with respect to this meeting is just ask you to give a very general description of the meeting, whether it was emotional.

A: It was very emotional.

Q: I don't want to focus on the emotional aspect of that meeting. What I want to do is focus on the end of the meeting.

A: Okay.

Q: And whether or not you said anything to the president about Kathleen Willey.

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Can you tell us what happened in that conversation?

A: Can I jump back a little to how I got the information or do you want me to just stick to what I told him?

Q: Sure, why don't you. Okay, jump back to how you got the information and then we'll plug it in.

A: Just so everyone understands. I believe it was in February or March of that year when I was friends with Linda, she had frantically come to me telling me that this reporter whom I had never heard of before that day, Michael Isikoff, had shown up in her office to question her about Kathleen Willey, who was this woman that you all know now but who was this woman who had -- that Linda had worked with in the White House and that I guess this woman had told Michael Isikoff that the president had sexually harassed her and that Linda would corroborate that fact. And Linda was -- she had said to me that she was nervous and she responded that no -- I think she had sort of tried to lead Michael Isikoff away from the fact that it had been sexual harassment but, at the same time, had sort of confirmed to Michael Isikoff that something might have happened there.

I'm sorry, I'm going too long.

Q: It's all right.

A: Throughout the next couple months I had encouraged Linda to get in touch with someone at the White House to let them know that this was out here. Being a political appointee, I thought that was something that should be done.

Q: Who at the White House did you encourage her to contact?

A: Well, she said she would feel comfortable either getting in contact with Nancy Hernreich or Bruce Lindsey from her experiences at the White House. And I don't really remember how it came to be Bruce Lindsey but that -- I don't remember who encouraged what. She contacted Bruce, or she told me she contacted Bruce Lindsey and that Mr. Lindsey did not return her phone call or answer her page.

Q: So jumping forward to July --

A: Right.

Q: -- what were you trying to convey to the president and what did you say to him?

A: Just let me add that I think right -- at some point before July 4th, soon before July 4th, Michael Isikoff had again contacted Linda and so the story was sort of bubbling this was going on and that this woman was going to be another Paula Jones and he didn't really need that. So --

Q: This is another grand juror who has just walked in

A: Okay.

Q: So that you know.

A: Thanks. So I wanted to inform the president about what he should sort of be aware of. And at the end of our meeting -- it had been a really emotional meeting -- I told him that I wanted to talk to him about something serious and that while I didn't want to be the one to talk about this with him, I thought it was important he know.

And I told him that a woman whom I was friendly with at the Pentagon had been approached by Michael Isikoff and sort of informed her that Kathleen Willey was claiming -- I know I didn't use the term sexually harassed because I would have felt uncomfortable saying that to the president, so I think I said something or another that indicated what Kathleen Willey was claiming, and that this woman had known Kathleen Willey when she worked at the White House and she -- I think I may have indicated that she had -- did not corroborate Kathleen Willey's story.

Q: Did you identify Ms. Tripp by name?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did the president ask who it was you were referring to?

A: No, he did not.

Q: Continue. I think you were --

A: At that point -- I don't know if it was at that point in the conversation, then the president informed me that Kathleen Willey had actually called Nancy Hernreich during the week earlier and had said -- excuse me, sorry -- and had said that this reporter was chasing after her trying to find out her relationship with the president. And so to me, what that meant was that when -- I thought that meant that when Kathleen found out Linda wasn't going to corroborate her story that she was trying to cover her tracks with the White House so that they wouldn't then find out or think that she was trying to encourage Michael Isikoff. So I thought everything was over with and I later told that to Linda.

Q: Why did you want to say anything to the president at all about that? What did you think the president might do to respond?

A: I thought he -- I thought maybe, you know, my understanding from Linda was that Kathleen had been trying to get a job, and I could certainly understand the frustrations of being told someone is going to help you get a job and then you don't. And I thought at that point -- I didn't know too many details about what was going on. I don't think she was in the Paula Jones case and I thought, well, gee, maybe if you know someone who needs -- who would want to hire her you can make this go away for -- that's how I thought of it. Then I thought maybe there was something he could do to fix it or someone else could do to fix it, or just be aware of it.

Q: He might get her a job, for example?

A: He might. I mean, I think that was one of the things that crossed my mind.

Q: At that time, did the president ask you whether you had disclosed anything about your relationship to anyone else?

A: Not at that time.

Q: Did he at some other time?

A: Yes, he did.

Q: When was that?

A: I think there might have been several times throughout the relationship, but he specifically asked me about Linda Tripp on July 14th.

Q: All right. Then we'll get to that in just a moment.

A: Okay.

Q: At the beginning of the meeting with the president on July 4th, you had sent him a letter in which you said that you were considering telling your parents. Did he ever say anything to you about, you know, you shouldn't be threatening the president, or something like that?

A: Yes. Our meeting started out with a fight, so he sat down and we sat down and he lectured me and, you know, "First of all, it's illegal to threaten the President of the United States and, second of all --" I mean, it was just -- and then I started crying so --

Q: All right, fine. After the meeting on July 4th concluded, did you leave the country?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. Where did you go?

A: I think a few days after that. I went to Madrid.

Q: When did you return, as best you can remember?

A: On the 14th of July.

Q: All right. Then let's turn our attention to the 14th of July. You got back from overseas. Did you get a call from Betty?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Tell us about that.

A: She called around -- I think it might have been around 7:30 -- I was already in bed because of jet lag and everything -- and told me that she thought the president either wanted to talk to me or see me later, and that I believe he was going out golfing at the time, and that she'd call me back later to let me know what was going to happen. And she did. She called back maybe around 8:30 or so, 8:30, 9 o'clock, and asked me to come over to the White House. So I did.

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