From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 6 The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.
Q: When you got to the White House, did you see the president?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Could you tell us how that meeting went?
A: It was an unusual meeting, I mean, first because we -- he met me in Betty's office and we went into Nancy Hernreich's office, which is adjacent to Ms. Currie's office, and sat on the sofa and talked. It was very distant and very cold. And he asked me if the --I don't remember the sequence of things necessarily, but at one point he asked me if the woman that I had mentioned on July 4th was Linda Tripp. And I hesitated and then answered yes, and he talked about that there was some issue with -- this had to do with Kathleen Willey and that, as he called it, that there was something on the sludge report, that there had been some information.
And what his main concern seemed to be was that Kathleen Willey had called Nancy again that week and was upset because Michael Isikoff had told her that he knew she had called the White House saying he was pursuing her and her story. Is that clear?
A JUROR: No.
A: Okay. Kathleen had called Nancy, and the president had told me that Kathleen had called Nancy. This was on July 4th. And then that following week when I was in Madrid, I believe -- I know I was in Madrid, I think it was that following week -- Kathleen called Nancy again. And Kathleen was upset because Michael Isikoff had told Kathleen that he knew that she had called Nancy the previous week.
Does that make a little more sense?
A JUROR: Yes, thank you.
A: So what the president's concern was that the only people who knew that Kathleen had called Nancy originally were Nancy, Bruce Lindsey, the president and myself, and Kathleen. So he was concerned and had asked me if I had told Linda the information he had shared with me, and I had said yes, I did because I thought that meant it was over, that Kathleen was trying to backtrack.
So that alarmed me because, obviously, someone had told Michael Isikoff. And he was concerned about Linda, and I reassured him. He asked me if I trusted her, and I said yes. And he -- we had talked about -- oh, I had -- I'm sorry, I'm sorry. On July 4th I had mentioned that -- to the president that this woman had tried to contact Bruce Lindsey and that Bruce Lindsey didn't return her phone call.
So on July 14th, the president asked me if I thought Linda would call Bruce Lindsey again, and I told him that she is a really proud woman and that she was really offended that he didn't call her back and it was -- so I didn't think she would. And he asked me if I would just try to see if she would call, and so I said I would try.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: Did he ask you whether you had told anything to Linda about your relationship with the president?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: All right. Tell us about that.
A: He asked me just that, and I said no.
Q: Where was this conversation taking place with the president?
A: In Nancy Hernreich's office.
Q: Did there come a time when he left to take a conference call?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: All right. Did you know who the conference call was with?
A: That's a little murky for me. I believe it might have been with his attorneys, but I don't remember how I know that. So it's possible it was with his attorneys.
BY MR. WISENBERG:
Q: How would you know it? I mean, how would you know it?
A: I don't know. That's just what sounds -- that's what came to my mind when I was recalling the event. And I don't recall how I knew that so I don't know if maybe that's just how I'm recalling it or that I knew it and I don't remember who told me.
Q: Was there anybody there to tell you he was talking to his attorneys other than him that day?
A: It could have been Betty. I sat with Betty when -- in her office when he was on the conference call in the Oval Office or in the back. I don't know where he was, actually.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: Other than the president asking you to get a hold of Linda and have Linda call Bruce Lindsey, how were things left at the end of the meeting?
A: He asked me to let Betty know the following day without getting into details with her, even mentioning names with her, if I had, you know, kind of mission accomplished sort of thing with Linda.
Q: And did you?
A: Yes, I got in touch with Betty the next day and I told her that I needed to talk to the president having to do with what he had asked me.
Q: And did you follow up with that?
A: Yes, he called me that evening.
Q: Okay. And what did the two of you talk about?
A: We discussed the -- I guess that I had tried to talk to Linda and that she didn't seem very receptive to trying to get in touch with Bruce Lindsey again, but that I would continue to try. And I think I just gave him some more -- I think I gave him maybe the background information about what I knew when Linda worked there and gave him, I think, a fuller version of whatever it was I knew about this situation.
MR. EMMICK: I'm prepared to move on. Is this an appropriate time for another break?
FOREPERSON: Most appropriate.
MR. EMMICK: Okay. Good timing.
WITNESS: Me, too. Too much water.
MS. IMMERGUT: Ten minutes?
MR. EMMICK: Let's just take ten minutes.
FOREPERSON: Ten minutes, please.
(WITNESS EXCUSED. WITNESS RECALLED.)
WITNESS: So where are we?
MR. EMMICK: In fact, I'll even walk up and show you where we are, but first we have to clarify that there are no unauthorized persons present and we have a quorum.
FOREPERSON: That's correct. And I need to remind you that you're still under oath.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: Just to make some reference here, we are here at the end of July, but there are some questions. I'm going to circle back to April 7th.
Q: We're going to ask. some more detail on April 7th and we're going to talk a little bit about a call that you had from the President in -- I think it is April of '97 about some conversations that --
Q: A call in that time period.
Q: There were also some -- let's call them sort of a laundry list of follow-up questions.
Q: So we'll focus there and a little bit on the 14th and a little bit on that phone call.
A: I thought I -- I also might just say that if, as happened before, if I'm saying something and I'm - not clear, I'm not understanding, just let me know, because I do that a lot.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: All right. Let's start off with some questions. -. First, let's focus on July 14th because the President wanted you to have Linda contact Lindsey. Why wouldn't Lindsey just contact Linda? Was there any discussion of that? -Why did it have to go one way rather than the other way?
A: I don't believe there was a discussion about it. I have my own thoughts on it, but there wasn't a discussion about it.
Q: What were your own thoughts on it?
A: That it would just -- I -- I think I sort of thought that it would probably be more proper -- not in a chain of command, necessarily, but -- it just seemed more appropriate for Linda to call Bruce Lindsey.
Q: Did it look -- do you think it would have looked inappropriate for Lindsey to contact Tripp?
A: I think it would have been awkward because I think -- how would -- you know, how would Bruce Lindsey have known to call -- you know, to call Linda at that point? If -- you know, the President thought at that point that -- you know, that Linda didn't know anything, so if Linda didn't know anything, then how -- wouldn't it be odd for Bruce Lindsey to just call her back out of the blue?
A: I mean, that was sort of how I thought of it.
Q: But in either event, there wasn't any actual discussion about the strategy behind who would have to call . . whom?
A: Not that I remember. No.
BY MR. WISENBERG:
Q: Well, did you say to him anything like, "Hey, she tried to call him before."
Q: "She isn't going to anything like that?
A: Yes. I think I had a3 call him this time." I mean, mentioned that before. I mean, that might have been -- you know, I think was sort of -- he was saying, "Well, just try to see."
Q: Let me approach the question in just a little bit different way. When you talked to Linda and tried to convince Linda to talk to Bruce Lindsey, what did you say to her to try to convince her to talk to what I mean? her? Do you understand what I mean?
A: Right. Well, I didn't tell Linda that -- and this was unusual, I didn't tell Linda that I had seen the President on the 14th of July because I was somewhat wary of her, having learned that someone had told Michael Isikoff, and I knew it wasn't me, so sort of assuming that Linda had talked to Michael Isikoff and not really knowing where she was coming from on this, so I just kept encouraging her to call Bruce Lindsey again, that this was heating up more and you really should call Bruce Lindsey.
Q: All right. Let me go to another question. You made a reference earlier to the fact that you felt that Nel hadn't been treated well or hadn't been treated respectfully. Could you tell us what you meant by that?
A: People in the White House -- I mean, Nel is stationed in the pantry, which is right -- I mean, which is even a part of the Oval Office area and he's always there and he takes very good care of the President and people just walk right past him, they don't say hi to him, a lot of people don't acknowledge him.
And they just -- you know, they kind of come to him when they need something, but aren't -- and I just -- I don't think people should be treated like that. I mean, I think anybody who -- and especially everyone who is working at the White House and who works --I've always categorized people as people who are there to serve the President and people who are there to serve themselves through the President and I think Nel has a lot of loyalty to the President.
Q: Would it be fair to say that it's no so much that they were affirmatively mistreating him, but they were treating him as a non-person almost? Or is that --
A: I think that's a mistreatment.
Q: Yes. That's a mistreatment. Okay. That's a fair characterization.
A: In my opinion.
Q: We had talked earlier about certain people that you wanted to avoid in order to help keep the relationship secret and you talked about Nancy Hernreich as being one of those people. Can you tell us what other people you wanted to sort of avoid in that same vein?
A: Stephen Goodin. Let's see. I guess it's different from when I was at the White House to after. When I was there, Evelyn Lieberman, Harold Ickes, anybody who knew who I was, certainly. And after I left, I think it was mainly anybody who knew me from before. So --
Q: All right.
A: Does that -- does that answer it?
Q: If that's the answer, then that's the best we can do.
Q: We talked earlier about February 28th and about Steve Goodin going into the Oval Office with Betty and what you learned about that conversation they had.
Q: The question is this: why would Steve Goodin, who is after all just a presidential aide, why would he be in a position to be able to tell the President, "You can't be with Monica Lewinsky alone"?
A: I don't know. And that was a question that I -- that I posed -- 1 don't think I posed it as a question, but I sort of made a comment, you know, who is -- and then -- I don't remember if it was to Betty or to Nel, you know, why he would always sort of -- what's the word I'm looking for? would -- you know, how inappropriate that was.
A: And maybe Stephen made the comment to Betty. Maybe just Betty. I -- I -- I -- you know, I wasn't in the room, so I don't know what the course of the conversation was. Maybe Stephen said it to Betty and Betty told the President that Stephen had said that to Betty. So I'm not sure, but I thought it was inappropriate, too.
Q: Any other follow-up on that?
A JUROR: I think a point be is that did he feel that he had the authority do so because someone else was encouraging him to monitor that sort of activity, such as Evelyn Lieberman, for example?
A: That's a good thought. I don't know. I don't have any knowledge of that. I never thought of that.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: You mentioned that during 1997 especially you frequently complained to the President that although he said he could bring you back (snapping finger) like that, it wasn't happening. How did the President respond when you complained about these things?
A: You know, I mean, it was the -- "Bob Nash is handling it," "Marsha's going to handle it" and "We just sort of need to be careful." You know, and, "Oh, I'll -- " he would always sort of --what's the word I'm looking for? Kind of validate what I was feeling by telling me something that I don't necessarily know is true. "Oh, I'll talk to her," "I'll -- you know, I'll see blah, blah, blah," and it was just "I'll do," "I'll do," "I'll do." And didn't, didn't, didn't.
Q: All right. You mentioned that in that July 3rd letter that you sent to the President through Betty you made a reference to the fact that you might have to explain things to your parents. What did you mean by that?
A: If I was going to pick up and move from Washington -- first of all, I had told my -- well, my mom knew, you know, that I was having some sort of a relationship with the President. My dad had no idea. And I had told my dad that was I -- you know, I was told I could probably come back to the White House after the election, as Tim Keating had told me. And the President. So I had sort of told him that course and I would -- have needed to explain to them why I was going to pick up and move to New York without -- what the point would be.
Q: Were you meaning to threaten the President that you were going to tell, for example, your father about the sexual relationship with the President?
A: Yes and no. I don't think I -- I know that I never would have done that. I think it was more -- the way I felt was, you know, you should remember that I sort of -- I've been a good girl up until now.
I mean, I kind of have -- that I think I tended to -- I know that I thought he tended to forget what I had gone through already and that -- and so that this wasn't an issue of, well, you know, "We can do this in a little while, this is maybe changing your job while you're in the White House," you know, if I had wanted to maybe do something different, it was a lot more significant. And I felt that he was giving me the runaround a bit, too.
Q: Is it fair to say that it was in part an implied threat?
A: Yes, but I think -- but I think if you want to look at it that way, it was a threat to him as a man and not a threat to him as president. Does that -- I mean --
Q: What do you mean?
A: Well, I think when I hear you say, you know, "Was that an implied threat" that that letter being sent to any man who is having an illicit relationship with someone would be a threat, and so it was irrelevant, the fact that he was president.
Q: I see.
A: So just because we had talked earlier about it and then that was what had upset me, when the President said, "It's illegal to threaten the President of the United States."
A: And I just thought, you know, "I don't deal with you like the President, I deal with you as a person."
MR. EMMICK: All right.
WISENBERG: Can I ask something about that?
MR. EMMICK: Yes.
BY MR. WISENBERG:
Q: But you had said your mother by that time knew there was some of kind of a relationship.
A: Right. He didn't know that, though.
Q: But you hadn't told -- he didn't know that.
A: I never told him that. No.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: A question about lipstick and tissues.
Q: You mentioned that a couple of times you used tissues to wipe lipstick off. Do you remember where you threw those tissues away and did it occur to you that somebody might see those tissues later and therefore might think of it as somehow evidencing the relationship?
A: No, really the only -- the one time that
I specifically remember doing that was on January 7th of '96. And -- no, I don't think that -- I mean, I had light lipstick on so I don't -- I think if it had been a darker colored lipstick that maybe I would have been concerned, I might have thought about that, but that didn't cross my mind. I don't think people go through the trash.
A: I hope not.
Q: Do you recall where you through that tissue away on that occasion?
A: It was in the bathroom. I think there's a wastebasket right next to the sink.
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