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From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 7

The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.

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Q: All right. A question going back to the '96 period, because you had mentioned that on February 19th of '96 the President told you essentially we should break up, we shouldn't have any more of a sexual relationship, yet five or six weeks later, there was a continuation of the sexual relationship. How does that happen? How does it get broken off and then rekindled?

A: Well, there continued to sort of be this flirtation that was -- when we'd see each other. And then one night, I -- don't -- I think it was maybe in the end of -- the end of February or maybe some time in March when he had -- I had seen him in the hall when I was leaving to go from work, and this was the night he was coming back from the Israeli embassy from something, and we didn't make any contact or anything because he was with Evelyn Lieberman. And I went home.

About 45 minutes later, he called me and had told he had gone back to his office and had called my office because he wanted me to come over and visit with him, but I was home now, you know, and then he had gone back upstairs.

So that had sort of implied to me that he was interested in starting up again and then when I saw him on the 31st of March -- when he kissed me, that pretty much --

Q: Just, basically, people got back together.

A: Yeah. There was never a discussion of, "Okay, now we're going to resume our relationship again." I didn't want to -- why bring up the memory of the guilt? So --

Q: Okay. Then what I'd like to do next is turn our attention back to April 7th, which is the Easter Sunday, and we're going to ask some more detailed questions about that period. First, when you got to the White House, did you see a Secret Service agent and did the two of you talk?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. Tell us who it was and what the two of you said to one another.

A: It was John Muskett, I believe. And I had brought some papers with me from home and so I believe I said something, "Oh, the President asked me to bring these to him." And John Muskett said, "Oh, I'd better check with Evelyn Lieberman." And I don't remember exactly what the rest of the exchange was, but I talked him out of doing that and then I just went in.

Q: Were you nervous when he said, "I've got to talk to Evelyn Lieberman"?

A: Oh, yeah. Yes. Also, it alarmed me that she was there. I didn't really expect her to be there on a Sunday evening.

Q: You mentioned that a telephone call came in while you were with the President. Did you later come to believe you knew who that call was from?

A: I made a speculation about who that call was from. I have no knowledge nor had no knowledge about who was on the phone call.

Q: Let's take this a step at a time, then.

A: Okay.

Q: First, what do you remember about the content of the call and then what was the reason that you drew conclusion you did later?

A: The content was political in nature-and I whatever drew, you -- know, the possibility that it was Dick Morris just based on -- that it was campaign stuff. And I think that how it even came up that it could possibly be Dick Morris was in a joking way with Linda on the phone.

So I don't believe that I ever -- I don't think I would have ever categorically stated that it was Dick Morris on the phone, because I didn't know that.

Q: All right. About how long after April 7th did you draw the conclusion or develop the suspicion perhaps that it was Dick Morris?

A: I don't remember.

Q: Okay. All right. At some point, did you hear a voice that you believed to be Harold Ickes' voice?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. Tell us how that happened.

A: The President and I were in -- I believe it was the back study or the study and -- or we might have been in the hallway, I don't really remember, but I -- Harold Ickes has a very distinct voice and so he -- I heard him holler "Mr. President," and the President looked at me and I looked at him and he jetted out into the Oval Office and I panicked and didn't know that -- I thought that maybe because Harold was so close with the President that they might just wander leave. So I went out the back way.

Q: When you say you went out the back way --

A: Through the dining room.

Q: Where did you go?

A: I went through the dining room exit, to the left, past the Chief of Staff's office, to the right, down the stairs.

Q: Were you in a hurry?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. At some point afterwards, did you get a call from the President?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. And what happened in that phone call?

A: He asked me why I left, so I told him that I didn't know if he was going to be coming back and so he -- he was a little upset with me that I left.

   

Q: All right. Before we move off that particular call, are there any follow-up questions that you have? Yes?

WISENBERG: Yes. Yes. And I'll try to be delicate. I'm not known for delicacy.

A: I can see that everyone seems to agree with that.

BY MR. WISENBERG:

Q: First of all, Ms. Lewinsky, when you went out the dining room, did you go out through Nel's pantry door or through the main dining room door?

A: I would have gone out the dining room door.

Q: Okay. I want to make sure that I get the sequence right, because this is partly based on stuff we discussed Monday in New York and you correct me if I get anything wrong.

A: Okay.

Q: We'll do it that way. As I understand it, there is a --you're back with the President that day and let me ask first if you recall, the more intimate sexual moments that day, were they in the hallway or the back study?

A: Both.

Q: Okay. Now, as I understand it, you're with the President. It's an intimate moment. A call comes in.

A: Correct.

Q: All right. And the President leaves.

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: You put your top back on. Your top had been off and you put your top back on.

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: And at some point he comes back. Is that correct?

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: Okay. And what I'm trying to do is distinguish between the Ickes event and the call, if there is a distinction in your mind. In other words...

A: Yes.

Q: The call is something different, as far as you know, from the Ickes event.

A: Correct.

Q: Okay. The President comes back and it's at some point later that you hear the voice of Harold Ickes.

A: I'm sorry --

Q: The President comes back from the phone call that he takes --

A: No. The -- someone came in to tell the President he had a phone call, so someone came in, hollered something, not Mr. Ickes.

Q: Okay.

A: The President went out, came back in and I think then they sent the phone call in.

Q: All right. He took that in --

A: He took the phone call in the back study.

Q: Okay.

A: Then we were -- and I think we had been in the hallway -- I know we had been in the hallway prior to that.

Q: Okay.

A: And he came back in and then the phone rang and he took the phone call in the back study.

Q: Okay.

A: Then it was much later in that same-day that he heard the "Mr. President" voice.

Q: Of Ickes.

A: Right. And I'm going to -- I think that we were in the back study at that point because that's why he jetted so quickly, not wanting Harold, I think, to walk back there. That was --

Q: Okay. Now, the voice you heard saying to the President that he had a call --

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: You never saw the President attached to that voice.

A: No. And it wasn't a voice that was familiar to me.

Q: Okay. And you never saw Ickes. Is that correct? When you later heard his voice, you didn't see him. You're just familiar with his voice.

A: Correct.

Q: As far as you know, did Ickes see you when you headed out the back way?

A: He couldn't have.

Q: Okay. Why do you say that?

A: Because he was in the office.

Q: Okay. And you said that Ickes was much later. I mean, much later within the whole time you were there with the President that day?

A: Right. Correct.

Q: Okay. I mean, not like several hours later.

A: No. No.

Q: Okay.

A: Just much later within my visit.

Q: Okay. Thank you.

BY MR. EMMICK:

Q: What I'd like to do is turn our attention to a call that you got from the President some time, I believe, in April, but correct me if I'm wrong, where he asked you something about whether you had told your mother...

A: Yes.

Q: ... about the relationship. Let's first talk about -- can you place this in time as best you can?

A: It was April. And this came about because -- I guess Marsha Scott, I think, had relayed some information to the President about her conversations, I think possibly with Walter Kaye, who is a friend of my family's, and that from that conversation, I think Marsha either directly said to the President or the President wondered from something Marsha said, if I had told my mom -- well, it must have been the President assuming from something that Marsha said.

The President asked me if I had told my mom or had my mom told --and where that went was had my mom told Walter Kaye. And I said no.

Q: What you're describing, is it all based President said in this phone call?

A: I don't understand.

Q: Yes. You said that at some point it was based on the fact that Walter had spoken to Marsha Scott and I'm trying to figure out if you're learning that from a different source or if it's all from the President.

A: No, I was learning that from the phone call with the President.

Q: All right. How long was the phone call?

A: You know, I'm thinking just now, I don't know if that was in April. It could have been in May.

MR. EMMICK: Okay.

A JUROR: Of 1997?

A: Yes. Sorry. Okay. I don't know if the month time is important or not.

BY MR. EMMICK:

Q: In April or May, you have this discussion.

A: Right.

Q: The President asks you if you've told your mother about the relationship.

A: Right.

Q: What do you respond?

A: "No. Of course not."

Q: Okay.

WISENBERG: Mike?

MR. EMMICK: Yes?

WISENBERG: Can I butt in?

MR. EMMICK: Yes.

BY MR. WISENBERG:

Q: Do you know independently what, if any, conversation there was -- that is, whether -- did you later learn that Walter had said something to Marsha or that somebody had said something to Walter?

A: In a way, that's too broad of a question because I think Walter Kaye kind of comes in and out -- if you look at this whole few years, he comes in and out of this in a few ways, so -- did I learn independently that Walter had had a discussion with Marsha? No. Is that what you were asking me?

Q: Well, that's one. How about with anybody else? I guess did you hear anything that struck you as this is kind of consistent with what the President had told me in that conversation or this fits together now? Walter had a conversation with somebody and could have actually talked to Marsha Scott and then that got relayed to the President.

A: I don't think I'm following you 100 percent. I'm sorry.

Q: Okay. Well, I'm not always very articulate. I'll just --

A: It --

Q: Do you recall -- let me be more specific. Are you - aware of your aunt ever having made a comment to Walter Kaye?

A: I'm aware of Walter Kaye having made a comment to my aunt.

Q: Okay. And what was that?

A: He remarked something to my aunt that he had heard from people that the reason I had left the White House or had been moved from the White House was because I had had this relationship with the President.

A: No. And it wasn't a voice that was familiar to me.

Q: Okay. And you never saw Ickes. Is that correct? When you later heard his voice, you didn't see him. You're just familiar with his voice.

A: Correct.

Q: As far as you know, did Ickes see you when you headed out the back way?

A: He couldn't have.

Q: Okay. Why do you say that?

A: Because he was in the office.

Q: Okay. And you said that Ickes was much later. I mean, much later within the whole time you were there with the President that day?

A: Right. Correct.

Q: Okay. I mean, not like several hours later.

A: No. No.

Q: Okay.

A: Just much later within my visit.

Q: Okay. Thank you.

BY MR. EMMICK:

Q: What I'd like to do is turn our attention to a call that you got from the President some time, I believe, in April, but correct me if I'm wrong, where he asked you something about whether you had told your mother...

A: Yes.

Q: ... about the relationship. Let's first talk about -- can you place this in time as best you can?

A: It was April. And this came about because -- I guess Marsha Scott, I think, had relayed some information to the President about her conversations, I think possibly with Walter Kaye, who is a friend of my family's, and that from that conversation, I think Marsha either directly said to the President or the President wondered from something Marsha said, if I had told my mom -- well, it must have been the President assuming from something that Marsha said.

The President asked me if I had told my mom or had my mom told --and where that went was had my mom told Walter Kaye. And I said no.

Q: What you're describing, is it all based President said in this phone call?

A: I don't understand.

Q: Yes. You said that at some point it was based on the fact that Walter had spoken to Marsha Scott and I'm trying to figure out if you're learning that from a different source or if it's all from the President.

A: No, I was learning that from the phone call with the President.

Q: All right. How long was the phone call?

A: You know, I'm thinking just now, I don't know if that was in April. It could have been in May.

MR. EMMICK: Okay.

A JUROR: Of 1997?

A: Yes. Sorry. Okay. I don't know if the month time is important or not.

BY MR. EMMICK:

Q: In April or May, you have this discussion.

A: Right.

Q: The President asks you if you've told your mother about the relationship.

A: Right.

Q: What do you respond?

A: "No. Of course not."

Q: Okay.

WISENBERG: Mike?

MR. EMMICK: Yes?

WISENBERG: Can I butt in?

MR. EMMICK: Yes.

BY MR. WISENBERG:

Q: Do you know independently what, if any, conversation there was -- that is, whether -- did you later learn that Walter had said something to Marsha or that somebody had said something to Walter?

A: In a way, that's too broad of a question because I think Walter Kaye kind of comes in and out -- if you look at this whole few years, he comes in and out of this in a few ways, so -- did I learn independently that Walter had had a discussion with Marsha? No. Is that what you were asking me?

Q: Well, that's one. How about with anybody else? I guess did you hear anything that struck you as this is kind of consistent with what the President had told me in that conversation or this fits together now? Walter had a conversation with somebody and could have actually talked to Marsha Scott and then that got relayed to the President.

A: I don't think I'm following you 100 percent. I'm sorry.

Q: Okay. Well, I'm not always very articulate. I'll just --

A: It --

Q: Do you recall -- let me be more specific. Are you - aware of your aunt ever having made a comment to Walter Kaye?

A: I'm aware of Walter Kaye having made a comment to my aunt.

Q: Okay. And what was that?

A: He remarked something to my aunt that he had heard from people that the reason I had left the White House or had been moved from the White House was because I had had this relationship with the President.

Q: Do you know what your aunt responded to Walter Kaye?

A: My understanding was she got up and walked out. She was having lunch with him.

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