From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 8 The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: After you had this telephone call with the President where he asked you whether you had told your mom, was the next time that you saw the President May 24th, I think, which you refer to as dump day?
A: Yes. Either way, it would have been, whether it was in April or May.
Q: Right. Because you didn't see him in April --
Q: -- and you only saw him once in May.
A: Right. Correct.
Q: All right. And you had -- that's fine. All right. What I'd like to turn our attention to next is as we're - working down our outline here, we're finished up with the July 3rd, 4th and 4th period. I take it that you remained frustrated with the President's efforts to try to get you back to the White House.
A: Mm-hmm. I mean, it always -- and I did make this clear to him, that it was always more important to me to have him in my life than to -- than to get the job, but-the job was something that was important to me.
Q: Did there come a time in about October when you gave up, more or less, on your efforts to get back to the White House and you turned your attention more to New York City?
Q: All right. Tell us how that happened.
A: Linda Tripp called me at work on October 6th and told me that her friend Kate in the NSC had heard from -- had heard rumors about me and that I would never work in the White House again and, if I did, I wouldn't have a blue pass and that her advice to me was "get out of town." So that meant to me that I wasn't going to be coming back to the White House and I was very upset by that.
Also, she, Linda, told me that Kate had said, "You know, they create jobs at the White House, you know, six days a week." And that Stephen Goodin's girlfriend had just gotten a job, so with these examples of how there had been all these other people receiving jobs that I could have done and I didn't get it.
Q: Did you communicate your additional frustration and disappointment to the President?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Tell us how and when.
A: I believe I sent him a short note telling him that I really needed to talk to him in person having to do with this subject matter and he and I had an argument in a conversation on the 9th of October.
Q: And was that a telephone conversation?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: Did he call you or did you call him?
A: He called me.
Q: About what time, if you can remember?
A: I think it was around 2:30, 3:00 in the morning.
Q: Was it a long phone call?
A: Yes. Yes. 2:00, 2:30 maybe.
Q: Is it fair to characterize involving an argument?
A: Yes. And then we made up.
Q: And then you made up.
A: It was half argument, half making up.
Q: Did the name Vernon Jordan come up in the course of that discussion?
A: It's possible.
Q: What do you have in mind about the first time that Vernon Jordan's name would have come up in conversations with the President?
A: It was either in that phone call or on 11th.
Q: And tell us whether it was in the what was said phone call or about Vernon on the 11th.
A: I don't remember. I know that I had discussed with Linda and either I had had the thought or she had suggested that Vernon Jordan would be a good person who is a close friend of the President and who has a lot of contacts in New York, so that that might be someone who might be able to help me secure a position in New York, if I didn't want to go to the UN.
Q: And what was the President's response?
A: "I think that was a good idea."
Q: At some point, did you send the President something like a list of jobs or interests that you might have in New York?
A: Yes. He asked me to prepare that on the 11th of October.
Q: At some point, did you have an initial meeting with Vernon Jordan?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Can you tell us when that was, as best you can recall?
A: The beginning of November of last year.
Q: How was that meeting arranged?
A: Through conversations with the President and with Betty.
Q: Without getting into a lot of detail about what happened there during the first meeting with Vernon Jordan, what did you think were your job prospects after that? Did it look like things were going to happen?
Q: All right. And what happened with respect to the job situation from that meeting with Vernon Jordan until, say, Thanksgiving?
A: Nothing, really.
Q: Okay. Then let's turn our attention to the month of December. We'll have to relate back a little bit to November in order to complete things, but on December 5th, did you return to Washington from overseas?
A: I did. You know -- the question you just asked me before about until Thanksgiving, I did have a conversation with him before Thanksgiving, I think it was the day before.
A: so --
Q: Then why don't you complete that, then.
A: Okay. I had spoken to Betty about -- about not being --being able to get in touch with Mr. Jordan because he was in and out of town and then wasn't necessarily returning my call. He's a busy man. And so Betty arranged for me to speak with him again and I spoke with him when I was in Los Angeles before -- right before Thanksgiving.
Q: Okay. Let's just go back, if we might, to that early November meeting with Mr. Jordan.
Q: Did he say anything indicating to you that he had spoken with the President recently about you?
A: Yes. I believe he mentioned he'd had a conversation with the President.
Q: And what did he say about that or what did he say that indicated he may have spoken with the President?
A: I believe he mentioned that in the course of the conversation and as I was leaving, he remarked to me that I came highly recommended.
Q: Okay. Let's turn our attention to December 5th, then.
Q: Having in mind that you had had a meeting with Vernon Jordan and a discussion and were trying to get a hold of him, when you got back from overseas, sort of what was the status of the Vernon Jordan job effort?
A: When I had spoken with Mr. Jordan right before Thanksgiving, he had asked me to call him the next week, either, I think, Thursday or Friday. And because I was out of town, I called him on Friday when I got back, and it was my understanding from his secretary he had gone out of town that day, so we had missed each other.
Q: All right. Did you try to arrange a meeting with President Clinton?
Q: Tell us what you did to try to arrange a meeting with President Clinton.
A: I sent a note to Betty much earlier in the week that I asked her to pass along to him which in that letter requested of him that I could come have a visit that Saturday.
Q: Did you follow up that note with a call to Ms. Currie?
Q: When was that call, if you remember?
A: December 5th.
Q: Okay. And what happened during the call?
A: Well, there were several calls, actually. And so at first, it was -- the first few, she still hadn't given him the note.
So then finally she gave him the note, just, I think, right after the radio address or right before his radio address, and then she told me that he was meeting with his lawyers all day Saturday, but that she was coming in in the morning to give a tour and she would check and see with him then, you know, if maybe I could come by, but that the prospects didn't look good.
Q: Was she focused on Saturday because you had asked whether Saturday would be a good time?
A: Mm-hmm. Yes. I'm sorry. Maybe he was going out of town on Sunday. I'm not sure why I would have focused on Saturday versus Sunday.
Q: In any event, what she said was he was busy with meetings with lawyers, something like that?
Q: All right. Did you go to a Christmas party that night?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did you see the President?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Let's turn our attention to December 6th.
Q: Are you doing okay?
Q: All right. December 6th. Let me ask as a background question, had you previously purchased for the President a Christmas present?
Q: All right. What was that Christmas present?
A: It was a sterling silver antique standing cigar holder.
Q: You had been unable to arrange an actual visit with the President to give him that present in person. What did you do instead?
A: I had some other gifts for him as well that I had gotten on my trips and --
Q: Tell us what those other gifts were, if you remember.
A: A tie. A mug from Starbucks in Santa Monica. A little box that's called hugs and kisses and it's Xs and Os inside, it's really -- it's just a cute little chatchki. An antique book from the flea market in New York that was on Theodore Roosevelt. And -- I think that's it.
Q: Okay. What did you try to do on the 6th in order to give those gifts to the President?
A: Well, I had wanted to give them to him, if I was going to have a planned visit with him, and then through the -- just some course of events, I got upset and I decided that I was really tired of everything that was going on and I just -- it was clear to me that he was ignoring me and I just didn't want to deal with this anymore.
So I decided -- I had purchased these presents for him and I'm very -- I spend a lot of time and am very particular about the presents I give to people, so I didn't want to give them to someone else and I wanted him to have them, so I packaged them up with a note that I was going to drop off to Betty.
Q: And where did you go?
A: I went to the southwest gate.
Q: What happened at the southwest gate?
A: I paged Betty or I think I might have called her. I know I called her and she wasn't at her desk, so I paged her to let her know I was there. And then Marsha Scott drove up, so I ran away to the northwest gate because I didn't want Marsha to see me. Continue from there?
Q: Yes. Did you have any trouble getting in at the northwest gate? What happened?
A: Well, I wasn't trying to get in. I -- so --
Q: What were you trying to do?
A: I was trying to wait for Betty. So I called Betty from the northwest gate and she wasn't at her desk and then I saw someone go into the -- it was under construction at the time, so it was a different little hut than normal, and I saw someone who went in who I thought was John Podesta, so I thought I would -- since I knew that Betty had talked to John Podesta about me, I thought I would ask him, you know, maybe I would ask her -- I would give the gifts -- I would feel comfortable probably giving the gifts to John Podesta to give to Betty, just knowing that he knew I had a relationship with her.
So when I went in to ask this person who I thought was John Podesta -- it turned out to be Lanny -- I think Lanny Davis, and so then one of the guards said, "Oh, are you here to see Betty Currie?" And I said, "No. I'm not here to see her, I'm trying to get her. She doesn't know I'm coming."
And then they told me she was giving a tour and that Eleanor --do you want me to go into this detail?
A: Okay. That Eleanor Mondale had come recently and that she was giving a tour to Eleanor Mondale. Then I sort of -- wanting to know if the President was in the office, asked the guards, "Oh, well, is the President in the office? Because if he is, she's probably too busy to come out and get these gifts."
And they said, "Yes, he was."
Q: What was you reaction to that?
A: Not good.
A: Very upset. Hysterical.
Q: Where did you go and what did you do?
A: I turned around and walked out and I was livid. I had --well -- are the grand jurors aware of the rumors about Eleanor Mondale that had been out? I mean, because it doesn't make sense if --
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: Well, why don't you say why you were upset.
BY MR. WISEWBERG:
Q: A question. Pardon me for interrupting. I just wanted to -- you said you were upset. Did you show your upsetness to any of the guards?
Q: Thank you.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: Did you contact Betty?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Where did you contact her from?
A: I called her from the pay phone at the Corcoran Gallery.
Q: Did you have a fight with her?
A: I think so.
Q: Okay. You say you think so --
A: I'm trying to remember if I -- if I actually got her on the phone, which I think I did. I'm pretty sure I did.
Q: All right. Did you eventually come to talk to the President on the telephone?
A: Through a much more circuitous route, yes, I did.
Q: All right. And where were you at that time?
A: I was at home.
Q: All right. And about what time of day was it?
A: Maybe around noon or so.
Q: How did the two of you come to be speaking on the phone? Who placed the calls?
A: Well, I believe maybe I had called Betty or maybe Betty called me, one of the two, but she put him on the phone.
Q: All right. And what happened in the conversation with the President?
A: Well, we had a fight. And he was very angry with me.
Q: Why was he angry with you?
A: Because I had gotten so upset and I had made a stink to Betty and I had -- you know -- I -- what I came to learn, I think, is that as a result of me being upset with Betty and mentioning that I knew Eleanor Mondale was there, Betty called the guards at the northwest gate and so it had just caused a whole big commotion. And he was just angry at me and he told me it was none of my business what -- you know, what he was doing and that -- you know, that -- that he had never been treated as poorly by anyone else as I treated him and that he spent more time with me than anyone else in the world, aside from his family, friends and staff, which I don't know exactly which category that put me in, but --
Q: Okay. Was it a long phone call with the President?
A: Maybe half an hour, 45 minutes.
Q: Eventually, were arrangements made for you to visit him at the White House?
Q: Are you doing okay?
A: Yeah, yes.
Q: Were you surprised that he would let you come to the White House?
A: Yeah, I was -- yes, I was a little bit surprised.
A: Because none of the other times that we had really fought on the phone did it end up resulting in a visit that day.
Q: All right. What about the fact that he was supposedly meeting with his lawyers all day? Did he say anything about that?
A: He had in the fight. When we were fighting, he said -- you know, he was angry because he said, "I have one day to meet with my lawyers and, you know, I've got you messing things up and being upset and blah, blah, blah." So --
Q: Did you go and did you meet with the President?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did Betty wave you in?
Q: Can you describe for us in general terms how that meeting went? Did you give him the gifts, for example?
A: I did. It was -- it was a really nice visit.
Q: Okay. What do you mean by a "nice visit"?
A: It was just sweet. He liked his Christmas presents and we were very affectionate and it just -- it was just nice to be with him.
Q: Did you discuss the job search?
A: I believe so.
Q: At the time, how did you think the job search was going? . .
A: Not very well. With respect to Mr. Jordan.
Q: Right. And did you communicate that to the President?
Q: Can you give us a little more detail? What would you have said to one another?
A: I think I said that I -- that I was supposed to get in touch with Mr. Jordan the previous week and that things didn't work out and that nothing had really happened yet.
Q: Did the President say what he was going to do?
A: I think he said he would -- you know, this was sort of typical of him, to sort of say, "Oh, I'll talk to him. I'll get on it."
Q: Okay. Did he say anything to you about whether he had a Christmas present for you?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: What did he say?
A: He told me that on the phone, actually.
Q: All right. What did he say about that?
A: Well, I said to him, "Well, how do you have a Christmas present? I haven't read that you've gone Christmas shopping yet." And he said that he had bought it in Vancouver.
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