From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 6 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 9 The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 6 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.
Q: Okay. Did he say at any time on the 6th anything about a witness list or your being on a witness list?
Q: How were things left when you left him on the 6th?
A: That he would bring me -- oh, our meeting ended up -- or was cut short by the fact that he had to have a meeting with Mr. Bowles, so he told me that he'd give me my Christmas present another time and that he wouldn't jerk me around and abandon me.
You know, that -- because I think I remarked to him, "Well, at the rate we go, I won't get it 'til Christmas of '98." So --
MR. EMMICK: I have no more questions about this date and I look at the time and it looks like it's 12:30.
FOREPERSON: Sol, I think, went to check on something.
MR. EMMICK: Oh, all right.
FOREPERSON: Did you check on something for lunch?
WISENBERG: I have checked. It is here. It's been here.
MR. EMMICK: Okay. All right. Well, if this would be a good time to take a break for lunch --
FOREPERSON: It's fine with me.
MR. EMMICK: Okay. Let's take an hour-long break for lunch.
MR. EMMICK: Okay.
MR. EMMICK: Thank you.
(Whereupon, at 12:34 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken)
Whereupon, MONICA S. LEWINSKY was recalled as a witness and, after having been previously duly sworn by the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and testified further as follows:
WITNESS: Time for a nap?
MR. EMMICK: Madam Foreperson, do we have a quorum?
FOREPERSON: Yes, we do.
MR. EMMICK: Are there any unauthorized persons
FOREPERSON: There are none. Monica, I'd like to remind you that you are still under oath.
WITNESS: Okay. Thanks.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: Ms. Lewinsky, we just got through speaking about the December 6th meeting that you had with the President. What I'd like to do is turn our attention next to the date of December 11th.
Q: Did you have a meeting with Vernon Jordan on that day?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Would you tell us when that meeting was?
A: Around lunchtime.
Q: And how was that meeting arranged?
A: By his secretary.
Q: What was the purpose of the meeting?
A: For him to -- I learned after we had the meeting, for him to give me some contact names and some suggestion of what to do with these contact names.
Q: When you say --
A: For a job.
Q: When you say "contact names," these are names of potential employers?
Q: What else did the two of you talk about?
A: We talked about my -- the fact that my mom's fiance at the time knew Mr. Jordan. We talked about the President. What else did we talk about? I think that's it.
Q: All right. Did he at some point make a comment to you about your being a friend of the President?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Would you tell us how the conversation transpired from that point?
A: I don't remember how we got to this point, but at some point, Mr. Jordan said something to me, "Well, you're a friend of the President of the United States."
And I remarked that I didn't -- I didn't really look at him as the President, that I saw him more as a man and reacted to him more as a man and got angry at him like a man and just a regular person.
And Mr. Jordan asked me what I got angry at the President about, so I told him when he doesn't call me enough or see me enough.
We were sort of bantering back and forth about that and then he told me that I shouldn't get angry at the President because he's got a lot of -- it sounds so stupid -- obviously, he has a lot of other more important things and difficult things to deal with than someone getting upset with him. And he suggested that if I was upset that I should call and take my frustrations out on Mr. Jordan instead of the President.
I mean, I think I should just say that it was all -- this was all sort of in a light tone.
Q: Is this a meeting during which the subject of your possibly being in love cropped up?
A: Oh, yes. So after we had the conversation I was just talking about with Mr. Jordan, he said to me, "Well, you know what your problem is?"
And I said, "What?
He said, "Don't deny it." And he said, "You're in love, that's what your problem is."
A: So I think I just -- probably blushed or giggled, something like that.
Q: How did the meeting end? What were you going to do and what was he going to do?
A: I was planning to send the letters that he had suggested I write to the list of people and he suggested that I cc him and keep in touch with him, keep him apprised of what was happening with my job search.
Q: And did you send out those letters?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And make arrangements for some interviews?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: What I want to do next, then, is direct your attention to a few days later, several days later, a week later, I guess. Did you come to have a telephone conversation with the President on December 17th?
Q: Would you tell us how that telephone call was -- how that conversation took place?
A: Okay. The phone rang unexpectedly at about maybe 2:00 or 2:30 and --
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: In the morning?
A: Right. In the morning. And it was the President and he called and said he had two things to tell me and then he had to call me right back. So he called me right back.
BY MR. EMMICK:
Q: Did he explain why he had to call and then call back?
A: I don't know. He just was very brief with me and then he said, "I'll call you right back." And he hung up and called back about a minute later.
Q: Before you get to the actual things that he says next, you mentioned that you unexpectedly got the call. Why were you surprised by the call?
A: Normally, the President wouldn't call me when Mrs. Clinton was in town, so -- and I usually was aware when she was out of town, so I that I would sort of be expecting or hoping that he would call. And the call came as a surprise to me.
Q: He called you back?
Q: Then what happened?
A: And he told me that he had two things to tell me. The first was that Betty's brother had been killed in a car accident and that -- so I reacted ti that and we talked about that being -- that this was the same brother who had been beaten up just a few months ago and she had lost her sister and her mom was ill. We talked about Betty for a little bit.
And then he told me he had some more bad news, that he had seen the witness list for the Paula Jones case and my name was on it.
Q: Did you get an impression from him about when he had found out your name was on the witness list?
A: Yes. I mean, the impression I got based on the entire conversation was that he found out recently.
Q: When he told you that, what did he say about having seen your name on the witness list?
A: He told me it broke his heart.
Q: Tell us how the conversation went from there.
A: I was -- I'm sure, as you can imagine, I was upset and shocked. He told me that it didn't necessarily mean that I would be subpoenaed, but that that was a possibility, and if I were to be subpoenaed, that I should contact Betty and let Betty know that I had received the subpoena.
I believe that I probably asked him, you know, what should I do in the course of that and he suggested, he said, "Well, maybe you can sign an affidavit."
At some point in the conversation, and I don't know if it was before or after the subject of the affidavit came up, he sort of said, "You know, you can always say you were coming to see Betty or that you were bringing me letters." Which I understood was really a reminder of things that we had discussed before.
Q: So when you say things you had discussed, sort of ruses that you had developed.
A: Right. I mean, this was -- this was something that -- that was instantly familiar to me.
A: And I knew exactly what he meant.
Q: Had you talked with him earlier about these false explanations about what you were doing visiting him on several occasions?
A: Several occasions throughout the entire relationship. Yes. It was the pattern of the relationship, to sort of conceal it.
Q: When he said that you might sign an affidavit, what did you understand it to mean at that time?
A: I thought that signing an affidavit could range from anywhere -- the point of it would be to deter or to prevent me from being deposed and so that that could range from anywhere between maybe just somehow mentioning, you know, innocuous things or going as far as maybe having to deny any kind of a relationship.
Q: At some point, did you talk with him about possibly settling the Paula Jones case?
A: Yes. I had -- I had had a thought and then had a conversation with Linda about this and just a way that he could settle the case and I suggested it to him.
Q: And what was that way? Not in a lot of detail, but --
A: The gist of it is, I thought that first Mrs. Clinton should do something publicly, maybe on a TV show or something, and talk about how difficult the case had been for her and on her daughter and that he would settle it and it would go away. And then the President should unannounced and unexpectedly go into the briefing room, make a brief statement that he -- in an effort to put this behind him, you know, against his attorneys' advice, he was going to pay Ms. Jones whatever it was, however much she wanted, and so that this case would be overwith.
Q: Did the two of you talk about how much the settlement amount would be or might be?
A: Yes. I believe at some point I had mentioned that I had recently read the -- I think she had lowered her -- the amount that she wanted to $500,000 or something lower and he said, "I thought it was a million or two million dollars."
And I thought that was very strange, that he wouldn't know she had -- you know, that her lawyers -- or his lawyers had not told him that she had lowered her request for money. Or I don't know how you say that legally, whatever it is that she did.
Q: Right. Demand, probably.
A: The demand was lower.
A: We also talked in this conversation about he mentioned that -- he said he'd try and see if Betty could come in on the weekend to give me my Christmas presents and I told him that was out of the question, to -- you know, let Betty be.
Q: Because her brother had just been killed, right?
Q: All right. About how long was the entire phone call? Or I guess technically it would be the second phone call.
A: Maybe a half an hour. Maybe I could just say since you asked me earlier that it was him suggesting that I would contact Betty if I were subpoenaed that led me to believe he didn't think I would be subpoenaed that soon because he knew Betty was going to be out, you know, he assumed obviously that Betty would be out for the week or two weeks with the unexpected loss of her brother.
A: So that was what led me to believe he had just found out.
Q: After the call was ended, did you call anyone else?
A: Yes. About a half an hour later, I called Linda.
Q: What did the two of you talk about?
A: My conversation with the President.
Q: Right. It seems self-evident, but --
A: I know. I'm sorry.
Q: That's all right. What did you tell Linda?
A: Well, if I could just jump back --
A: I mean, I had -- Linda had told me some time in -- I think the second week of December that she had been subpoenaed in the Paula Jones case and that she intended to rat on me, so up until this point, I had been trying to convince her not to tell, that it's not anybody's business.
So when I -- part of my telling her that the President had called; that I, too, may be pulled into this case was just sort of --maybe assure her that if that happened, there would be someone else denying it, it wouldn't be just Linda out there alone saying "I don't know anything about any kind of relationship between the President and Monica."
Q: Kind of a unified front or something like that?
Q: All right. How was the conversation left with Linda?
A: I think that we'd talk about it the next day.
Q: Did you get subpoenaed?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: When did you get subpoenaed?
A: On Friday, the 19th of December.
Q: Can you tell us about when you believe you were subpoenaed?
A: I believe it was around 3:00, 4:00 in the afternoon. I think closer to 3:00, 3:30.
Q: Okay. Where were you served?
A: At the Pentagon.
Q: Could you tell us how it happened? Did someone call you?
A: Yes. I received a call in my office from the gentleman who was to deliver the subpoena to me. He informed me he had a subpoena for me. I made a stink to him, asking him why I was being subpoenaed and I had no idea what was going on.
When he gave me the subpoena, he suggested I call Ms. Jones' attorneys, which I made a comment to him that that's not something I would do.
Q: When you actually did get served, what was your real reaction inside?
A: I burst into tears. It was -- it was very scary. I mean, it just -- sort of my worst nightmare, or I had thought until that point, was being subpoenaed in this case. So I was pretty upset.
Q: You couldn't call Betty because Betty was --
Q: -- in mourning herself. Who did you call?
A: I called Mr. Jordan.
Q: From what phone did you call Mr. Jordan?
A: From a pay phone.
Q: Close to where you were served, the nearest pay phone around?
A: No, I think it was the pay phone which is down the hall from my office, which is kind of halfway between where I was served and my office.
Q: And why did you use a pay phone?
A: Because I was crying and I -- I mean, I -- my office, the way my office is set up is my desk was in the same room with four or five other people, so I couldn't very well have any kind of a private discussion.
Q: What did you tell Mr. Jordan?
A: Well, I don't remember what I told him. I was crying and he didn't seem to understand me, so he just -- he just told me to come to his office around 5:OO.
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: Did you tell him you'd been subpoenaed?
A: I probably did. I just -- I mean, I don't -- I don't remember, I just remember being on the phone crying and him saying, "I can't understand you. I can't understand you."
Q: You got off the phone. What did you do next? Did you finally go to Vernon Jordan's office?
A: Yes. I tried to compose myself and I went into the office. I told Mr. -- I believe I told Mr. Bacon or some other people in the office that I had an emergency and I needed to leave. I went home, sort of put myself together, and went to Mr. Jordan's office.
Q: When you got to Mr. Jordan's office, did you have to wait outside for a bit?
Q: In like a reception area?
A: I waited in the lobby, like I always did.
Q: About how long did you wait in the lobby?
A: I don't really remember.
Q: At some point, I take it, you did actually meet with Mr. Jordan?
Q: How did the conversation with Mr. Jordan progress?
A: First, I came in and I explained to him clearly that I had been subpoenaed and that I was upset and shortly after, I think maybe I said I didn't know what I was supposed to do, I didn't have an attorney, I think I was rambling.
Shortly after I had arrived at Mr. Jordan's office, he received a phone call and I stepped out of the office.
Q: Did he ask you to step out of the office?
A: I think I may have offered. That was sort of par for the course. And I waited for him while he was on the phone outside his office and when I came back in, he placed a call to -- I don't know if it was right after I came back in, but at some point, when I came back in, he placed a call to Mr. Frank Carter.
Q: Now, when you stepped out, he took one call and then you stepped back in, did he tell you who he'd been on the phone with?
Q: All right. He places a call to Frank Carter. Do you know whether he talked to Frank Carter in person or do you know whether he just left a message or do you recall?
A: I don't really recall.
Q: When --
A: Oh, he said something about -- well, I know he referred to Mr. Carter as Mr. Carter, so I don't know if he was talking -- I don't really remember if he was talking to Mr. Carter or he was talking to someone else, but it scared me because I thought for Mr. Jordan to be referring to someone else as Mr. something, that -- I sort of thought he must be a big deal.
Q: All right. When you went to the meeting with Mr. Jordan, did you bring the subpoena with you?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did you show it to Mr. Jordan?
A: I believe so.
Q: What most troubled you about the language of the subpoena and what the subpoena had called for you to produce?
A: The thing that alarmed me was that it asked for a hat pin.
Q: Okay. And why did that alarm you?
A: Because I thought that was a very specific gift and in this list of gifts, everything else seemed to be somewhat generic and then it had hat pin, which screamed out at me because that was the first gift that the President had given me and it had some significance.
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