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From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 20 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 2

The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 20 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.

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MR. EMICK: All right. I have a number of other questions about these alternative methods of concealment. Let me ask you this. I think you've testified earlier that most of the sexual contact that you had with the President tended to occur in the hallway, rather than in the study, although sometimes it was in the study itself.

Did that have anything to do with whether or not it would be easier to see you in the study as opposed to the hallway?

A: I think so, but I don't specifically -- I don't specifically remember discussing that with the President, but there were circumstances that that sort of was obvious to me.

Q: And would that include the fact that windows in the study tended to be uncurtained?

A: Just that, windows. Yes.

Q: Right. Yes, there were windows there.

A: Yes.

Q: And so you might be seen there.

A: Yes.

MR. EMMICK: All right.

Q: BY MS. IMMERGUT: In that regard, you also mentioned that you would move from the oval area or that sometimes you'd start in the Oval Office and then you'd move towards the hallway. Did the President ever initiate that move?

A: I think we both did. I mean, it just depended on the day. It wasn't --

Q: Was it understood that you wouldn't actually have a sexual encounter in the Oval office?

A: I'm sure it was understood. I -- I -- I wouldn't have done that. I mean -- so -- I'm sure he wouldn't have done that.

Q: BY MR. EMMICK: Are there windows all around the Oval Office?

A: There are windows all around and it just I know this may sound silly, but it wouldn't be appropriate. You know.

Q: What about any discussions with the President about not acknowledging one another at parties or photographs, for example?

A: He called me in my office the day of Pat Griffin's going away party and had asked me if I was going to go. I said yes and he said, "Well, maybe we can get together after that."

And I told him I didn't think that was a good idea, that people were going to be watching. I was paranoid anyway and -- so I said, "I think it's a good idea if we just sort of ignore each other at the party and don't really say anything." And that's what we did.

Q: And what about with respect to a photograph that was taken at the party and whether --

A: I mean, we didn't discuss this. I didn't know there was going to be a picture taken. But I made an effort to stand on the -- I was the last person sort of on the outside of this picture so that -- I didn't want anyone to think that I was trying to get close to the President, I was trying to -- whatever it was.

Q: So in that case, that would be a concealment effort, but not one that the President and you had collaborated on.

A: No.

Q: All right. What about an occasion when the President suggested that the two you might attend a movie and sort of bump into each other outside the movie? Tell us about that discussion.

A: He told me he was going to watch a movie with some friends of his and that if I wanted to I could bump into him in the hall outside and then he'd invite me into the movie.

And I asked him if -- I think he said there were some friends and maybe some of his staff or I asked him if some of his staff was going to be there.

And he said yes and I don't remember who he said was going to be there, but I said I didn't think that was a good idea.

Q: And why would you have to make prior arrangements for you to bump into each other rather than having sort of a -- you know, walk down the hall together to the movie?

A: Well, I --

Q: I know it's kind of obvious.

   

A: For obvious reasons, I guess, because it wouldn't be appropriate. It -- people would -- people would wonder what was going on.

Q: Right. Right. Okay. What about the fact that you made -- that you sent gifts and notes through Betty rather than directly to the President?

Was that something that was done in order to make it less obvious that the notes were actually to the President?

A: Well, yes and no. You really -- if you send something directly to the President, if you send a gift to the President, if I sent something right now, well, I don't know, right now, but before this, it -- it -- it goes to the gift unit.

Q: Right.

A: And so I knew that Betty was the way -- I think that that's -- Walter Kaye would, you know, go through Betty, I think. And that's --

Q: So it's yes and no, is the answer to that.

A: You can't -- I mean, you can't send a courier thing to the President, you know, a courier to President Clinton, so --

A JUROR: I have a question to follow up on that. When you would send gifts and notes and what have you to Betty, as you had testified, sometimes you'd have a funny card in there, sometimes it would be something sentimental.

Did you ever give Betty license to read any of them because you thought, "Hey, take a look at this, tell me what you think," any of the cards or notes or anything?

A: I don't think so. Maybe I told her about a funny card or something. Not that I really remember. I don't -- I think especially if it were something that was ultra-sensitive, I don't -- you know, I don't --

A JUROR: Yes. That would probably be sealed.

A: Exactly.

A JUROR: But for any of the other little --

A: Might have been the jokes. Sometimes I would put together jokes I got on the Internet or e-mail jokes that I put together for him because, you know, everyone needs to laugh, so -- I think maybe -- maybe there was a time that I said, "Oh, you should look at these jokes, they're really funny."

A JUROR: Okay.

MR. EMMICK: Other questions? Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, did you ever discuss with the President whether you should delete documents from your hard drive, either at the office or at home?

A: No.

A JUROR: Nothing like that?

A: No.

A JUROR: Did you ever discuss with the President whether you should deny the relationship if you were asked about it?

A: I think I always offered that.

Q: So in that case, that would be a concealment effort, but not one that the President and you had collaborated on.

A: No.

Q: All right. What about an occasion when the President suggested that the two you might attend a movie and sort of bump into each other outside the movie? Tell us about that discussion.

A: He told me he was going to watch a movie with some friends of his and that if I wanted to I could bump into him in the hall outside and then he'd invite me into the movie.

And I asked him if -- I think he said there were some friends and maybe some of his staff or I asked him if some of his staff was going to be there.

And he said yes and I don't remember who he said was going to be there, but I said I didn't think that was a good idea.

Q: And why would you have to make prior arrangements for you to bump into each other rather than having sort of a -- you know, walk down the hall together to the movie?

A: Well, I --

Q: I know it's kind of obvious.

A: For obvious reasons, I guess, because it wouldn't be appropriate. It -- people would -- people would wonder what was going on.

Q: Right. Right. Okay. What about the fact that you made -- that you sent gifts and notes through Betty rather than directly to the President?

Was that something that was done in order to make it less obvious that the notes were actually to the President?

A: Well, yes and no. You really -- if you send something directly to the President, if you send a gift to the President, if I sent something right now, well, I don't know, right now, but before this, it -- it -- it goes to the gift unit.

Q: Right.

A: And so I knew that Betty was the way -- I think that that's -- Walter Kaye would, you know, go through Betty, I think. And that's --

Q: So it's yes and no, is the answer to that.

A: You can't -- I mean, you can't send a courier thing to the President, you know, a courier to President Clinton, so --

A JUROR: I have a question to follow up on that. When you would send gifts and notes and what have you to Betty, as you had testified, sometimes you'd have a funny card in there, sometimes it would be something sentimental.

Did you ever give Betty license to read any of them because you thought, "Hey, take a look at this, tell me what you think," any of the cards or notes or anything?

A: I don't think so. Maybe I told her about a funny card or something. Not that I really remember. I don't -- I think especially if it were something that was ultra-sensitive, I don't -- you know, I don't --

A JUROR: Yes. That would probably be sealed.

A: Exactly.

A JUROR: But for any of the other little --

A: Might have been the jokes. Sometimes I would put together jokes I got on the Internet or e-mail jokes that I put together for him because, you know, everyone needs to laugh, so -- I think maybe -- maybe there was a time that I said, "Oh, you should look at these jokes, they're really funny."

A JUROR: Okay.

MR. EMMICK: Other questions? Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, did you ever discuss with the President whether you should delete documents from your hard drive, either at the office or at home?

A: No.

A JUROR: Nothing like that?

A: No.

A JUROR: Did you ever discuss with the President whether you should deny the relationship if you were asked about it?

A: I think I always offered that.

I think I've always ...

A JUROR: . In discussions with the President?

A: In discussions -- I told him I would always -- I would always deny it, I would always protect him.

A JUROR: . And what did he say when you said that? What kind of response did you receive?

A: I said that often. I -- in my head, I'm seeing him smile and I'm hearing him saying 'That's good, or -- something affirmative. You know. Not -- not 'Don't deny it.'

A JUROR:Thank you.

A: Sure.

Q: BY MS. IMMERGUT: Ms. Lewinsky, with respect to the weekend visits, did the President ever initiate that idea or say anything about it's good if you come on the weekends?

A: Yes. The -- I don't remember if it was the Wednesday or the Friday when the relationship first started, he said to me at some point, you know, You can come see me on the weekends. I'm usually around on the weekends. So --

Q: And did you understand what that meant?

A: Yes. To me, it meant there aren't as many people around on the weekends, so ...

A JUROR:Ms. Lewinsky, when you -- now, this is a different kind of subject. When you first made the determination that you were moving to New York and you wanted to explore the possibilities of a job in private industry, can you recall how you first got the recommendation about Vernon Jordan's assistance in this endeavor?

A: I can't. I know that it was -- what I don't remember was if it was my idea or Linda's idea. And I know that that came up in discussions with her, I believe, before I discussed it with the President. I know that I suggested to the President or I -- I didn't suggest, I asked the President if Mr. Jordan might be able to assist me.

A JUROR:To go back from the job search to what we were talking about before, I seem to recall, and I may be mistaken, when you were here before you said something about Tim Keating when you were fired, said something to you like maybe you can come back after the election.

A: Mm-hMm.

A JUROR:And I wanted to just hear sort of a fuller explanation about that. Was it your understanding at the time that Tim Keating was sort of -- that he understood and was telling you that you were fired because of an appearance problem around the time of the election?

A: Not at all.

A JUROR: No?

A: No.

A JUROR:The other question I have, and I apologize, it's a little bit sensitive, but did you and the President in sort of discussing cover stories and, you know, how -- you know, your desire to protect him from sort of what's going on now, did you ever talk about sort of, you know, that you weren't really having sex?

I mean, you said that he made this comment to you about not having -- you know, that certain actions have consequences at his age.

A: Yes.

A JUROR: Was there ever sort of an understanding that, well, oral sex isn't really sex? Or did you talk about that?

A: We didn't talk about it. Something that I thought on my own was one of the reasons that it -- at first that he didn't want to -- that he wouldn't let everything come to completion in terms of oral-sex was I thought that that sort of had to do with maybe that was his way of being able to feel okay about it, his way of being able to justify it or rationalize it that, well --

A JUROR:But you never discussed that.

A: No.

MR. EMMICK: Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, getting back to -- I think you have a copy there of contacts between the President and Monica?

A: Yes.

A JUROR: After you left the White House, it seems as if you attended a number of public functions where you came in contact with him. Was that by chance? Was that something you wanted to do? was it a way to see him? Was it something that he suggested? Could you just tell us a little about that?

A: Sure. No. Those were all ways for me to get a chance to see him. I'm an insecure person and so I think -- and I was insecure about the relationship at times and thought that he would come to forget me easily and if I hadn't heard from him -- especially after I left the White House, it was -- it was very difficult for me and I always liked to see him and it -- and usually when I'd see him, it would kind of prompt him to call me. So I made an effort. I would go early and stand in the front so I could see him, blah, blah, blah.

Q: BY MR. EMMICK: Let me ask a follow-up question to that because I think it may have been in about October of `96 when you had a telephone conversation with him just prior to you going to Billy Shaddock to get a photograph.

A: Right.

Q: During the conversation before, did you and the President have any discussion about your dropping by and seeing him at a public departure?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. Would you tell us about that?

A: Let's see. I spoke with him -- I think it was October 22nd, and then I saw him at an event October 23rd and he called that night and I had mentioned to him on -- I think it was a Tuesday, the first phone conversation, that I was going to be at the White House on Thursday.

And when he called me Wednesday night, he said -- I was upset with him and so then he said, you know, "Don't be mad. Don't be mad." You know. "Are you coming tomorrow?"

And I said yes.

So he said, "Well, why don't you stop by Betty's office, stop by to see Betty and then maybe you can come see me for a few minutes before I leave." So --

Q: Okay. All right. The reason I was asking that as a follow-up is that's sort of a prearranged semi-public occasion for the two of you to see each other.

A: Right. I don't -- I don't know necessarily that I was going to go to the departure.

Q: I see.

A: But that was maybe kind of a cover story.

Q: I understand.

A: Or I'm not -- I know he had a departure and I know that I was going to see him for a few minutes before the departure because I thought -- I remember thinking that I might get to kiss him, so --

MR. EMMICK: All right.

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