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From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 20 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 3

The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 20 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.

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A JUROR: Now to follow up on your follow-up of my question --


A JUROR: Did you get to see him that day?

A: No, I didn't.

A JUROR: Okay. Could you tell us a little about that?

A: Sure. I -- the short of it is that I didn't end up seeing him because Evelyn Lieberman was hanging around and left with him that day.

A JUROR: She was someplace where she didn't belong.

A: Right. So Betty had -- I was waiting in the West Wing lobby with Billy, actually, after we had gone to look at the photos and Betty finally came out and it was really just as he was walking to the helicopter and she took me to se it but she said that -- and it was at that point when she sort of confirmed for me that Evelyn didn't like me. So that --

A JUROR: The contacts with the President, on page 5, for the 18th of August ...

A: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

Q: MR. EMMICK: Page 5

A JUROR: Okay. Page 5, 18th of August, it says "Public function, President's 50th birthday party, limited intimate contact."

A JUROR: I couldn't hear her.

MR. EMMICK: Okay. Let me repeat it. There is a reference on page 5 to August 18th of 196, a Sunday, "Public function, President's 50th birthday party, limited intimate contact." Your question about that was?

A: What does that mean?

Q: MR. EMMICK. What does that mean?

A: It's stupid. There was a cocktail reception for his -- he had this big 50th birthday party at Radio City Music Hall and there was a cocktail reception and at the -- when he came to do the rope line and he -- after he greeted me and talked to me, he was talking to a whole bunch of people in and around my area and I had -- can I stand up and show you?

MR. EMMICK: Sure. Sure.

A: Okay. If this is the rope line and here are all the people and the President's standing here, as he started to talk to other people, I had my back to him and I just kind of put -- put my hand behind me and touched him.

MS. IMMERGUT: Touched him in the crotch area?

A: Yes.

A JUROR: I didn't hear that.

MS. IMMERGUT: Touched him in the crotch area.


Q: And the response was yes.

A JUROR: Okay.

A JUROR: Did anybody see you?

A: What? No. What's the question?

A JUROR: Did anybody see you?

A: No.

A JUROR: But there were people around.

A: There were, but it was -- he was talking -- everybody was enamored with him. I'm sure everybody saw from Monday that -- and he was talking to different people and he -- he was always very close to me when -- whenever held do these rope lines and would sort of make a point of talking to me around -- you know, with other -- while other people were there and held usually hold my hand -- you know, sort of shaking hands and just -- would continue to just touch me somewhere. I mean, not intimately, not ...


MR. EMMICK: Right. Just to set the scene, are there a lot of people kind of bunched together at the time?

A: Oh, they're -- they're -- I mean, if we -- if everybody in the room came and stood in this one small corner, that's -- I mean, that's how crowded it was. So it was and my back was to him and he was, he was holding onto my -- I think he was holding onto one of my arms or something, I had a sleeveless dress on.

Q: So -- So it sounds to me like -- it's almost a situation where there are so many people that you can't really see that kind of --

A: Exactly. And it wasn't -- it wasn't a -- it was maybe sort of a grazing over of that area, but it wasn't, it wasn't how you might imagine it if someone described this, from a scene from a movie, It wasn't like that, but it was -- you know. I don't even know if he remembers, so --

Q: Okay.

A JUROR: So on this paper we have here with sexual relations, would that qualify as what, contact? Sexual contact? Because if I remember, where's my paper --

A: Let me look at the definition.


A JUROR: Yes. Contact with --

MR. EMMICK: Just to clarify, the witness is looking at Grand Jury Exhibit ML-6.

A: I'm not really sure, because I don't think it was to necessarily gratify him or arouse him.

A JUROR: What was it for?

A: It was just -- I thought it was funny and it was sort of a -- I don't know how to explain it.

A JUROR: Contact.

Q: BY MR. EMMICK: Would it be better described as perhaps affectionate or playful?

A: Playful, I think. It was just -- playful, not something I'd ever thought I'd have to discuss publicly.

A JUROR: While we're on this, I wanted to like finish it up, but I had a couple of questions with regards to the definition.

A: Sure.

A JUROR: Because I want to be sure in my own mind. At the bottom it says -- it says "Contact means intentional touching, either directly or through clothing."

A: Mm-hmm.

A JUROR: Out of all of the times you had intimate contact, were there times when the President would touch you either on the breasts or in the genital area directly to the skin or was it always through clothing?

A: Directly to the skin. Both.

MR. EMMICK: Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: I have some questions about the 50th birthday. That's when you gave the President the yellow tie. Is that when you gave the President the yellow tie?

A: Not on that date.

A JUROR: But just before that.

A: But before that. Correct.

A JUROR: When it shows on the chart here, it says "Some time before August 16, 1996."

A: Correct.

A JUROR: And that tie is the same tie that at the end of your appearance here we saw some evidence that the President has worn a number of times this summer.

A: Yes.

A JUROR: There's been some press accounts about that tie, last night and today.

A: Sure.

A JUROR: My question to you is have you authorized your attorneys or any other spokesperson through you to discuss that evidence?

A: Gosh. I don't think I've necessarily given a direct authorization.

A JUROR: Do you know that they have?

A: Do I know if they -- I -- I don't know if they necessarily directly have. I know there have been questions about it. I shouldn't say I know, I'm sure there have been questions about it, but there have been a lot of instances since the beginning of this thing that there's been information that's come out from places where I hadn't expected it and that includes my own -- the people on my team. So I can't -- I don't know.

A JUROR: So you don't know whether that information is coming from people that you have discussed it with?

A: I think that there -- there probably might have been -- I really -- I -- I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there was confirmation or some of that information came from there.

So -- but I know that also -- I'm sure it was somewhat limited because with my agreement, we're not allowed to talk to the press. We're not supposed to. So -- without is prior approval.

Q: BY MR. EMMICK: So I guess there's -- let me just rephrase it. It sounds like you wouldn't be surprised by it, but do you have any direct knowledge that it occurred?

A: I know that there have been calls about this tie and I know that -- that I don't think that we've been 100 percent silent about that. So -- I don't -- I mean -- I know that we didn't cause this story to come out or I don't believe that we did. So --

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, it says on the chart that you received a thank you note saying that the tie is really beautiful.

A: Mm-hmm.

A JUROR: And that was in the President's handwriting?

A: It's a typed letter and then he hand signed the letter and then "The tie is really beautiful" is handwritten.

A JUROR: Did you ever discuss the tie with him in person or was it just a note?

A: No, we discussed it a lot on the phone.

A JUROR: And did he like the tie?

A: Mm-hmm.

A JUROR: Thank you.

A: He called me the first day he wore it. The first time he wore it.

A JUROR: All right. Thank you.

A JUROR: I have another question.

A: Sure.

A JUROR: On the day you were here testifying, there was a report on the TV --

A: Right.

A JUROR: The President in the Rose Garden wearing that tie. Did you see that?

A: That evening I did.

A JUROR: When you saw him with the tie, what did that say to you?

A: I understand you had to do what you had to do. That's what it meant to me. I had looked -- because I had seen him wear this tie prior a few other occasions since January, I had looked the day before my testimony because I thought he's just the kind of person that's going to wear this tie to tug on my emotional strings one last time before I go into the grand jury and say this under oath. And he didn't.

And him wearing it the day I came to testify sort of having to know that I wasn't going to see it until the end of the day, to me was just kind of you know, hey, you had to do what you had to do. But --

MR. EMMICK: Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, not to make a big issue about the tie, but is this tie something -- one of the ties that perhaps the President really liked, is a favorite tie?

A: I think so because he wore it during the campaign. He wore it once sometimes even twice a week. So I think he liked it a lot.

A JUROR: Do you think that he would remember that it's from you? I mean, you know, I don't know, but do you think he would?

A: Ties were a big issue with us and I used to bug him all the time on the phone, "Well, when are you going to wear one of my ties?" You know. Or he'd say, "Did you see -- On one occasion, I remember specifically he said, "Did you see I wore your tie the other day?"

There's a pretty big correlation between the times when he would wear one of my ties and we either spoke the night before or that night.

And I used to say to him that "I like it when you wear my ties because then I know I'm close to your heart." So -- literally and figuratively.

A JUROR: So you think he would know, then, that that was your tie.

A: He should know.

A JUROR: Which brings to mind when the first appearance by Nel, when he came testify --

A: Yes.

A JUROR: Can you tell me what your thoughts were when you saw the pictures of Nelvis wearing the first tie that you gave the President?

A: Yes. Actually, you know what? I think my cup's leaking. I'm sorry.

A JUROR: Do we have another cup up there?

A: Am I allowed to know people's names in here?

MR. EMMICK: The answer to that is no.

A: Oh.

Q: I know it seems ...

A: It's so awkward.

Q: It does seem awkward, but I think it's better if ...

A: Okay.

Q: ... the record not have any identifications.

A: Okay.

Q: We didn't intentionally get you a dribble glass.

A: Oh, sure. At least it's water and not grape juice. I had two very different thoughts. My first thought was "You jerk. You're trying to show me how little you care about me and how little this meant to you by giving it -- to show me that you gave it to someone else, it meant so little to you now."

And my second thought was that it was sort of some sort of message of some sorts. I don't know what. Because I could see the President kind of saying to Nel, you know, Oh, why don't you -- I could even see him spilling something on Nel on purpose and that morning and then sort of saying, Oh, here, just wear this tie, or something like that. I mean -- he's funny that way. But I thought there was some sort of deliberateness to it.

I don't know that Nel knew that, that that was the tie I gave the President but I don't think it was a coincidence.

Q: Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: Could one of your thoughts perhaps have been that maybe he just gave him a batch of ties to Nelvis? And maybe he didn't remember?

A: No.

A JUROR: You really think he would have remembered that first tie?

A: I know he did. I mean, we -- we -- that was -- I don't know if you all know this or not, but I worked in a men's necktie store when I was in college for four years and so that was my thing, that was part -- you know, my spending money, a lot of it came from working. And so I love ties. And I, I mean, I can pick out -- you know -- different designers and stuff. And so that was a big thing for me. And then, and I liked to give him ties and I liked to see him wearing them.

A JUROR: Do you know how much impact Nel had on what the President wore each day?

A: None. To my understanding. Nel was -- My understanding is that Nel's strictly in the -- While he would go to the residence on occasions, that he was usually in the oval area.

MR. EMMICK: There's a question waiting for a bit here. Yes.

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, was it the President's nature to give his ties away?

A: Yes. I knew that -- I knew that he had given Nel ties, his ties in the past. But ties were such a big issue between the President and me that I really couldn't have imagined that he didn,t -- that he didn't know.

A JUROR: Other people other than Nel as well, in terms of giving his ties away?

A: I don't know.

A JUROR: Okay. You just --

A: I'm not aware of anyone else, but that doesn't mean there aren't.

A JUROR: Okay.

A: Right.

A JUROR: But you did know about that.

A: Yes.

A JUROR:Do you happen to know whether the President had a valet to assist him in his dressing?

A: Assist him in his dressing, I don't know. I know that there's a valet.

A JUROR: Or like prepare -- Mr. President, this suit goes with this tie, kind of thing?

A: I don't know that necessarily, but I have seen -- I had seen evidence enough that he could wear my ties when he wanted to. You know. That if he wanted to, he could go pick it out, so I don't know what his getting dressed routine is.

A JUROR: Okay. Thank you.

A JUROR: Okay. I have a question that's a bit on the delicate side.

A: Okay.

A JUROR: But this is just something that I need to know.

A: Sure.

A JUROR: Did you and the President ever engage in sexual relations using cigars?

A: Yes.

A JUROR: Okay.

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