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From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 20 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 4

The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 20 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.

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A JUROR: Okay. I'd like to change the subject now.

A: Thank you. Just once. Just once.

A JUROR: When you last testified, you told us that photographs that you saw of the President and First Lady when they were away that were romantic in nature upset you.

When you had an opportunity to speak with the President about those photographs or any film that was taken during these romantic moments, what did he say? Why they were -- because I'm just curious as to whether or not they were staged because of the legal things that were going on with the President at that time.

A: Right. I don't believe we discussed them. I know that that upset me and sort of put me in a bit of a contentious mood when I spoke with him on the 5th. I think it was the 5th of January of this year. And I may have said something in passing about them, but we didn't have a discussion about the pictures.

A JUROR: Okay. I was just wondering if there were --

A: Sure. No. I wondered, too.

A JUROR: Did you think any conversations to him about his wife were inappropriate?

A: I don't know if inappropriate is the right word. I tried not to. I -- there were very few discussions and I tended to say things like, "Well, when you're alone," you know, "Call me when you're alone," kind of a thing or, you know, that was how we discussed sort of Mrs. Clinton maybe not being there, was, "Well, I'll be alone on this day. Shall I -- " I think we were careful -- or I was careful, I know I was.

MR. EMMICK: Yes, ma'am?

A JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky, I wondered if you ever had any trouble with the Secret Service in trying to be near the President.

A: No. The only time that I remember was when I went to see him on the last time in '96, I guess it was April 7th, Easter. And when John Muskett was outside and he said he was going to check with Evelyn if I could go in and then I don't remember exactly how it happened, but I sort of -- I don't remember the exact discussion, but it ended up he ended up not talking to Evelyn and I went in. So --

A JUROR: I have a question about Linda Tripp.

A: Ugh. Sorry.

A JUROR: In your conversations with Ms. Tripp, was her opinion always that she must be truthful or was there a time where your impression was that she was going to provide you with cooperation as far as keeping the secrecy?


A: There are two areas of that, I guess. Linda always told me she would always protect me and she would never tell anybody and keep my secret, up until the Paula Jones case came about.

And I had never had any reason to think that she would ever need to discuss this under oath because I was certainly always going to deny it and I couldn't even imagine a situation where that would really come up.

But there was a point in the period prior to my learning about her being subpoenaed in the Paula Jones case, most specifically, January 9th, when she led me to believe that she was not going to tell about my relationship and that she was going to be vague on the truth about Kathleen Willey and was just not going to really remember anything else and that was why I agreed to meet with her on Tuesday the 13th.

A JUROR: In your conversations with her as you were making your move to move to New York and what have you, did you ever get the sense that she was fishing for offers of benefits or the protection of her job? You know, or where she was hoping that nothing would affect her job or if there was something in it for her?

A: Yes and no. When you asked me the question, the first thing that comes to my mind was it may not be directly related to that.

When the Kathleen Willey incident had come out in Newsweek, there was a period after it, Bob Sennett had referred to -- or had made that comment about Linda Tripp and she made some off-comment about if she loses her job she's going to write a tell-all book.

And so I sort of -- that was an instance where I felt I needed to assure her that that wasn't going to happen, she wasn't going to lose her job, and that -- I certainly tried to make assurances. I mean, I -- I promised -- I would have promised her the moon if I could deliver it.

And then also -- then when I spoke with her on the 9th, she talked about that she had spent some time in New York during Christmas and that she -- that someone had suggested to her that she get a job doing public relations in New York.

And that seemed a little bit strange to me, in that that was exactly what I was in the process of doing, and that maybe that was what she thought, that somehow then -- you know, I think I told her, oh, I'd try to help her come to New York and try to help her that way, but I don't know that -- that I ever said anything directly about who would help her.

A JUROR: Okay. Thank you.

MR. EMMICK: I'd like to ask a clarifying follow-up because I wasn't sure I understood all of the sort of ins and outs, if you will, of when Linda was going to maintain the secret and when she was going to reveal it. It sounded like prior to the time when Linda got a Paula Jones subpoena, your understanding was she was doing to keep the secret.

A: Correct.

Q: And then after she got the Paula Jones subpoena, then she told you that she was going to disclose things and tell the truth. Is that right?

A: Yes. Yes.

Q: Okay. And then in this conversation on January 9th, she indicated some willingness to consider keeping the secret a bit longer.

A: No, considered that she was going to do that.

Q: That she was going to. All right. That's what I wanted to clarify.

A: Sure.

MR. EMMICK: Thank you.

A JUROR: When you said that in your conversations with Linda Tripp you kind of had to exaggerate some things about the President to her, you exaggerated on some of the things you said to her about the President --

A: I'm not sure about that. I -- I don't know if exaggerate is the right -- is maybe the word I would choose.

A JUROR: Okay.

A: But go on. I'm sorry.

A JUROR: Well, no, I just used that word.

A: Okay.

A JUROR: Exaggerate. You didn't use it, but I couldn't think of the exact words you used.

A: Sure.

A JUROR: But were you -- why do you think that you had to not tell her some things that did actually happen, true things, in talking to her?

A: That really came about in relation to the Paula Jones case. I think that I was -- there were some occasions, one in particular that I remember, when I didn't disclose a contact that I had with the President --

I'm sorry, here I'll scoot over contact that I had with the President to her for some reasons, but after the Paula Jones case, I was scared to death. I mean, I was panicked that she was going to tell. So, I mean, I -- I, you know, along the lines of -- you know, some of the things I said about Mr. Jordan, I said, you know, 00h, the President told me I have to lie,

I don't even remember everything I said, but I know that there were certainly lies at that point, not even exaggerations.

MR. EMMICK: Actually, I was going to ask that clarifying follow-up to that.

FOREPERSON: And then after that, we have to take a break.

MR. EMMICK: And then we'll take a break. The clarifying follow-up was that I had understood that during that January period when you were talking to Linda Tripp you were lying to her on occasion, but I wasn't clear whether those lies related to times that you had been with the President or whether they related to other things generally. Do you understand what my question is?

A: No.

Q: What were the nature of the lies that you were telling to Linda Tripp during that January period?

A: Oh, gosh. They went from -- I guess a non-disclosure of my meeting with him on the 28th, no my phone call with him on the 5th of January, to -- ranging to things that he said I had to do or told me to do.

I haven't -- I haven't seen transcripts of those days, thank goodness, but I just know that I was -- I was scared to death. And I though any influence that anybody would have, my mother, Mr. Jordan, the President, anybody, would -- I used.

Q: All right.

FOREPERSON: It's break time.

MR. EMMICK: Break time.

FOREPERSON: It's break time. It's break time.

A JUROR: I have a follow-up to that as well.

FOREPERSON: Okay. So we're going to take 10 minutes.

A: Okay.

FOREPERSON: And we'll come back.

A JUROR: I hope I remember my question.

A: Can you guys call me Monica? Are they allowed to call me Monica instead of Ms. Lewinsky? I was just ...

FOREPERSON: If you say so.

A: Okay.


A: I'm just 25. Please.

A JUROR: But you'll always be Ms. Lewinsky, whether you're 25 or 28 or ...

A: Not if I get married.

(Witness excused and recalled)

FOREPERSON: Monica, I'd like to remind you that you are still under oath.

A: Thank you.

MR. EMMICK: We have a quorum and there are no unauthorized persons present. Is that right?

FOREPERSON: You are absolutely correct.

MR. EMMICK: Lucky this time.

A: Thank you.

MR. EMMICK: Did you want to ask some follow-up questions?

MS. IMMERGUT: Yes. Ms. Lewinsky, there are two things I wanted to clarify. First, with respect to the tie disclosure issue --

A: Yes.

Q: You were asked about before, I believe you mentioned something to the effect that there have been things that have come out of your team that you were surprised about before. Are you referring to your current legal team?

A: No. My first legal team.

Q: Okay. And that's Mr. Ginsberg?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. You're not aware of any unauthorized disclosures from your current camp?

A: No. Nor have I authorized any disclosures.

Q: Okay. So you didn't authorize a disclosure about the tie.

A: No.

Q: With respect to -- to switch gears -- to what we were speaking about right before the break about the things that you said to Linda Tripp at the very end, particularly on January 13, 1998, I believe --

A: Yes.

Q: You mentioned that an example of things that you were not truthful about was, for example, the fact you had seen the President on December 28th and that you had spoken to him on January 5th. Is that correct?

A: Right. Yes. And I didn't disclose that to her.

Q: Right. You did not disclose that to her.

A: Quite to the contrary.

Q: Okay. In fact, you told her that you hadn't seen or spoken to the President for two months.

A: Or since the 17th of December.

Q: Okay.

A: Exactly.

Q: You mentioned that there was -- you also said things about what the President had said to you to Ms. Tripp that were not true on January 13th. Do you remember any specific things that you said that the President had told you that in fact were not true?

A: No. I don't remember any specifics, I just wanted to leave open the possibility. Does that clarify it?

MR. EMMICK: On the right here?

A JUROR: Monica, why did you keep that black dress?

A JUROR: Blue.

A JUROR: Blue dress.

A JUROR: Did you have a reason to keep it?

A: Pardon?

A JUROR: The blue dress.

A JUROR: The blue dress.

A: No. I didn't have a reason. The reason -- the dress -- I didn't realize -- if I remember correctly, I didn't really realize that there was anything on it until I went to go wear it again and I had gained too much weight that I couldn't fit into it.

And it seemed sort of funny and I -- it may sound silly, I have a lot of clothes. I don't clean all my clothes right after I wear them, I usually don't clean them until I know I'm going to wear them again. And then I was going to wear it for Thanksgiving because I had lost weight and I had -- I had shown the dress to Linda at that point and had just sort of said to her, "Well, isn't this -- You know, "Isn't this stupid?" Or, you know, "Look at this, isn't this gross?" Or whatever. I don't really remember exactly what I said.

And she told me that I should put it in a safe deposit box because it could be evidence one day.

And I said that was ludicrous because I would never -- I would never disclose that I had a relationship with the President, I would never need it.

And then when Thanksgiving time came around and I told her that I was going to wear it for Thanksgiving, she told me I looked fat in the dress, I shouldn't wear it. She brought me a jacket from her closet as to try to persuade me not to wear the dress.

So I ended up not wearing it and then I was going to clean it. I took it with me up to New York and was going to clean it up there and then this broke, so --

A JUROR: Okay. Your relationship with the President, did your mother at any time try to discourage the relationship?

A: Oh, yes.

A JUROR: Well, what kept it going? I mean, what kept it -- you keeping it active or whatever?

A: I fell in love.

A JUROR: I beg your pardon? I couldn't hear you.

A: I fell in love.

A JUROR: When you look at it now, was it love or a sexual obsession?

A: More love with a little bit of obsession. But definitely love.

A JUROR: Did you think that the President was in love with you also?

A: There was an occasion when I left the White House and I was pretty stunned at how I felt because I did think that.

A JUROR: You did?

Q: BY MR. EMMICK: Do you remember the date?

A: It was July 4, 1997.

A JUROR: Were you aware that he was having problems in his marriage? Did this ever spill over in the times that you were together? Did you get a feeling that something was not right, that -- --

A: (redacted material)

JUROR:. (redacted material)

A: (redacted material)

A JUROR: (redacted material)

A: (redacted material)

A JUROR: (redacted material)

A: (redacted material)

A JUROR: (redacted material)

MR. EMMICK: I thought there was a question in the front here.

A JUROR: And today, Monica, do you still love the President?

A: Before Monday, I would have said yes.

A JUROR: So then it is no?

A: I don't know how I feel right now.

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