From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 20 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 7 The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 20 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.
A JUROR: Okay. Any other Linda Tripp questions?
A JUROR: Yes, there's one.
A JUROR: Did you ever suggest to Linda Tripp that she delete e-mails or anything like that from her computer?
A: Yes, I did.
A JUROR: And did you tell her that you had done the same thing?
A: Yes, I believe so.
A JUROR: And did anyone ever suggest to you or tell you that you should do that?
A JUROR: Did you tell Linda Tripp that anyone had suggested that to you?
A: I don't think so.
A JUROR: Okay. Thank you.
A JUROR: Any others?
A JUROR: In that end of the year timeframe, did you ever tell Linda Tripp that you felt physically at risk?
A: I think so. I think her told her something about -- that -- that -- I said something about Mary Jo what's-her-name.
A JUROR: Kopechne.
THE WITNESS: Kopechne. And so -- I really didn't feel threatened, but I was trying to use anything I could to try to convince her not to tell. So that I thought that if she thought I was threatened and that was part of the reason, then she would maybe do the same.
A JUROR: So you did not at any time feel that your personal security was at risk from the White House or anyone in the White House?
A: No. I think that maybe there -- there -- maybe once or twice it had crossed my mind in some bizarre way because everybody's heard about the different you know, sure, there's the Marilyn Monroe theory. And so it -- but it was not -- it was not any factor of -- that related to my actions.
A JUROR: So any discussion that you had about the whole topic with Linda Tripp would fall into what you were describing before as a little bit of fabrication?
A: Yes. Yes.
BY MR. EMMICK: If I could ask a follow-up on that, did your mother ever express any concerns about your safety?
A: I think she might have, but it was sort of the -- I think it was more general. It might have been a more general sense.
A JUROR: Are there any other questions about personal safety?
A JUROR: Are we still on December? December, January?
A JUROR: Yes.
A JUROR: I have one follow-up question if this is an appropriate time about the gifts. And, again, if you have your proffer there?
A JUROR:At the top of page 7, where you say in your proffer that when Ms. Currie called later that afternoon she said, at least I think you mean that she said, that the President had told her Ms. L wanted her to hold on to somethtng for her. Do you remember Betty Currie saying that the President had told her to call?
A: Right now, I don't. I don't remember, but when I wrote this, I was being truthful. The other thing, and this is something that I was thinking about this morning in relation to the proffer, that I had written this proffer obviously being truthful, but I think that when I wrote this, it was my understanding that this was to bring me to the step of getting an immunity agreement, and so I think that sometimes to -- that I didn't know this was going to become sort of this staple document, I think, for everything, and so there are things that can be misinterpreted from in here, even from me re-reading it, the conditions -- some of the conditions maybe under which I wrote it.
So I just thought I should sort of say that, that where -- I mean, I know -- I certainly was not untruthful or trying to be misleading in this. I didn't think it was going to be this was my understanding of a written thing that I would -- that I would attest to under oath and that it wouldn't be number 7, read this, is this -- do you --
MR. EMMICK: So it may not be written wiih legal precision?
Q: But there's no intentional falsehoods in it?
Q: You were trying to be truthful throughout?
A JUROR: And my purpose in raising it really is to just see whether this might jog your recollection at all as to something you might have recalled back in February that you don't recall today.
A: It doesn't.
A JUROR: It does not?
A: It's possible, but I -- I -- it's not my, you know ...
A JUROR: Okay.
A: ... my memory right now.
A JUROR: Any other questions on that subject?
A JUROR: If we don't have any other questions, I guess the other thing that we wanted to ask you a little bit about in when you were first approached by Mr. Emmick and his colleagues at the OIC. Can you tell us a little bit about how that happened? That's not a happy topic, either, I apologize.
MR. EMMICK: Maybe if I could ask, what areas do you want to get into? Because there's, you know, many hours of activity.
A JUROR: Well, one specific -- okay. One specific question that people have is when did you first learn that Linda Tripp had been taping your phone conversations?
A: I believe that I didn't learn the extent to which she had taped my conversations until I read it in the press. I learned that day that she had worn a wire at the lunch and that I -- and that there had been other people, I think, in the restaurant that had been listening in and -- so I knew -- she had -- she had said that -- that -- when I was first apprehended, she was -- she had said that they had done the same thing to her and she tried to hug me and she told me this was the best thing for me to do and -- oh.
MR. EMMICK: Any other specific questions about that day? I just -- this was a long day. There were a lot of things that ...
A JUROR: We want to know about that day.
A JUROR: That day.
A JUROR: The first question.
A JUROR: Yes.
A JUROR: We really want to know about that day.
MR. EMMICK: All right.
A: Linda was supposed to go see this new attorney that she had claimed she had gotten and was going to try to sign an affidavit so she paged me in the morning. I called her back and she told me she wanted to meet me before she went to see the attorney. So we planned to meet at the Ritz Carlton in the food court at -- I think it was quarter to one.
She was late. I saw her come down the escalator. And as I -- as I walked toward her, she kind of motioned behind her and Agent (name redacted) and Agent (name redacted) presented themselves to me and --
A JUROR:Do you want to take a minute?
A: And flashed their badges at me. They told me that I was under some kind of investigation, something had to do with the Paula Jones case that they -- that they wanted to talk to me and give me a chance, I think, to cooperate, maybe.
I -- to help myself. I told them I wasn't speaking to them without my attorney.
They told me that that was fine, but I should know I won't be given as much information and won't be able to help myself as much with my attorney there. So I agreed to go. I was so scared.
(The witness begins crying.)
A JUROR: So, Monica, did you go to a room with them at that time?
A JUROR: And at that time, did you talk to anybody or what did you do? Did you want to call your mother?
A: Can Karen do the questioning now? This is -- can I ask you to step out?
MR. EMMICK: Sure. Okay. All right.
MS. IMMERGUT: I guess, Monica, if Mike could just stay do you mind if Mike is in here?
A: (Nods affirmatively )
MS. IMMERGUT: Okay. Would you rather --
A: (Nods affirmatively)
MR. EMMICK: Okay. That's fine.
MS. IMMERGUT: Okay. Did you go to a room with them at the hotel?
Q: And what did you do then? Did you ever tell them that you wanted to call your mother?
A: I told them I wanted to talk to my attorney.
Q: Okay. So what happened?
A: And they told me -- Mike came out and introduced himself to me and told me that -- that Janet Reno had sanctioned Ken Starr to investigate my actions in the Paula Jones case, that they -- that they knew that I had signed a false affidavit, they had me on tape saying I had committed perjury, that they were going to -- that I could go to jail for 27 years, they were going to charge me with perjury and obstruction of justice and subornation of perjury and witness tampering and something else.
Q: And you're saying "they," at that point, who was talking to you about that stuff?
A: Mike Emmick and the two FBI guys. And I made Linda stay in the room. And I just -- I felt so bad.
Q: Now, when you say you felt bad, because you felt responsible somehow for pulling the President into something?
Q: And is that something that still weighs heavily on you, that you feel responsible?
A: And is it -- do you feel responsible because you told Linda about your relationship?
Q: I guess later just to sort of finish up, I guess, with the facts of that day, was there a time then that you were -- you just waited with the prosecutors until your mother came down?
A: I mean, there was, but they -- they told me they wanted me to cooperate. I asked them what cooperating meant, it entailed, and they told me that -- they had -- first they had told me before about that -- that they had had me on tape saying things from the lunch that I had had with Linda at the Ritz Carlton the other day and they -- then they told me that I -- that I'd have to agree to be debriefed and that I'd have to place calls or wear a wire to see -- to call Betty and Mr. Jordan and possibly the President. And --
Q: And did you tell then you didn't want to do that?
A: Yes. I -- I -- I remember going through my mind, I thought, well, what if -- you know, what if I did that and I messed up, if I on purpose -- you know, I envisioned myself in Mr. Jordan's office and sort of trying to motion to him that something had gone wrong. They said that they would be watching to see if it had been an intentional mistake.
Then I wanted to call my mom and they kept telling me that they didn't -- that I couldn't tell anybody about this, they didn't want anyone to find out and that they didn't want -- that was the reason I couldn't call Mr. Carter, was because they were afraid that he might tell the person who took me to Mr. Carter.
They told me that I could call this number and get another criminal attorney, but I didn't want that and I didn't trust them. Then I just cried for a long time.
A JUROR: All while you were crying, did they keep asking you questions? What were they doing?
A: No. they just sat there and then -- they just sort of sat there.
A JUROR: How many hours did this go on?
A: Maybe around two hours or so. And then they were -- they kept saying there was this time constraint, there was a time constraint, I had to make a decision.
And then Bruce Udolf came in at some point and then -- then Jackie Bennett came in and there were a whole bunch of other people and the room was crowded and he was saying to me, you know, you have to make a decision. I had wanted to call my mom, they weren't going to let me call my attorney, so I just -- I wanted to call my mom and they --
Then Jackie Bennett said, "You're 24, you're smart, you're old enough, you don't need to call your mommy."
And then I said, "Well, I'm letting you know that I'm leaning towards not cooperating," you know.
And they had told me before that I could leave whenever I wanted, but it wasn't -- you know, I didn't -- I didn't really know -- I didn't know what that meant. I mean, I thought if I left then that they were just going to arrest me.
And so then they told me that I should know that they were planning to prosecute my mom for the things that I had said that she had done.
(The witness begins crying.)
MS. IMMERGUT: Do you want to take a break, Monica?
(Witness excused. Witness recalled.)
THE FOREPERSON:Okay. We have a quorum. There are no unauthorized people and Monica is already aware that she is still under oath.
MS. IMMERGUT: We just have a couple more questions and then I think we'll break for lunch.
A JUROR: Monica, I have a question. A minute ago you explained that the reason why you couldn't call Mr. Carter was that something might be disclosed. Is that right?
A: It was -- they sort of said that -- you know, I -- I -- I could call Frank Carter, but that they may not -- I think it was that -- you know, the first time or the second time?
A JUROR: Any time.
A: Well, the first time when I asked, that I said I wasn't going to talk to them without my lawyer, they told me that if my lawyer was there, they wouldn't give me as much information and I couldn't help myself as much, so that --
A JUROR: Did they ever tell you that you could not call Mr. Carter?
A: No. What they told me was that if I called Mr. Carter, I wouldn't necessarily still be offered an immunity agreement.
A JUROR: And did you feel threatened by that?
A JUROR: And you said they offered you a chance to call another attorney?
A JUROR: And did you take them up on that offer?
A JUROR: Why not?
A: Because I didn't trust them.
A JUROR: I see. And at some point in this meeting, did you -- you did obtain an attorney? Mr. Ginsberg?
A: Well, like at 11:00 that night.
A JUROR: So it was seven hours or eight hours or more later?
A: They -- they finally let me call my mom, so I went to call my mom and then -- and I saw Linda again. She had been shopping or something like that. But I called my mom and then Mike had said that she could call him, so they called her or she called him or something like that and then they agreed to let her come down.
So she took the train and then -- and then he just sort of -- I shut down and I kind of -- you know, I thought maybe I should try and make these people like me, so I tried to be nice and I told jokes and I asked if we could walk around the mall because I couldn't sit in that room any more. And I just --
BY MS. IMMERGUT: So did they let you do that?
A: Mm-hmm. So Mike and Agent (name redacted) took me and we walked around the mall and we ate dinner and then we went back to the room and I read Psalm 21 about a million times. And my mom's train had been -- there were problems with her train and then finally she got there and they told me they were going to want to talk to my mom alone for a little bit, but I got to talk to her.
And I was -- I didn't -- I didn't want to cooperate. I mean, I didn't -- I just kept thinking to myself, well -- well, I'll just say I made it all up, I'll just -- I'll just -- I -- I couldn't imagine -- I couldn't imagine doing this to the President. And I felt so wrong and guilty for having told Linda and that she had done all this.
But -- so then they took my mom into another room for a really long time and she had -- then when she came back, they called my dad. And then we finally -- and then I talked to my dad and then -- then -- Ginsberg came on the scene. And he --
A JUROR: So if I understand it, you first met the agents, Agents (names redacted), at around 1:00 and it wasn't until about 11 p.m. that you had an opportunity to talk to a lawyer?
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