From the Starr Referral:
Lewinsky's Aug. 20 Grand Jury Testimony, Part 8 The following is from a transcript of Monica S. Lewinsky's testimony to the grand jury on Aug. 20 as provided by the Associated Press and transcribed by the Federal Document Clearing House from documents supplied by the House Judiciary Committee. Editor's Note: Some of the language in these documents is sexually explicit.
Q: BY MS. IMMERGUT: Although you were allowed to -- the thing with Frank Carter was that they were afraid he would tell Vernon Jordan? Is that what they expressed to you?
A: Right. And I had -- I had -- I think that someone said that Frank wasn't even -- Frank was a civil attorney and so that he really couldn't help me anyway, so I asked him if at least I could call and ask him for a recommendation for a criminal attorney and they didn't think that was a good idea.
And then I said, well, what about -- if I want to get in touch with Mr. Carter later, if I decide that's what I want to do, you know, and he's not there, because it's Friday and it was a holiday weekend, so then Agent Fallon went in the other room to find out if he had a service or something or another, a pager, I don't know --
Q: Some way for you to reach him later?
A JUROR: Sounds as though they were actively discouraging you from talking to an attorney.
A JUROR: Is that a fair characterization?
MS. IMMERGUT: Well, from Frank Carter.
A: From Frank Carter, who was my only attorney at that point.
MS. IMMERGUT: Right. Right.
A: So I could have called any other attorney but --
A JUROR: You didn't have another attorney.
A: I didn't have another attorney and this was my attorney for this case. So I mean, this was --
A JUROR: And this in the attorney who had helped you with the affidavit.
A: Yes. And that -- the affidavit -- well, the affidavit wasn't even filed yet. It was Fed Ex'd out on that day. So --
A JUROR: Monica, when you called your mother, how much were you able to tell her over the phone? Very little or --
A: I was hysterical. She didn't understand what I was saying, but I told her that -- that the FBI had me and there was something with the Paula Jones case and Linda and then she -- she I said that -- that the guy said you could call her -- you can call him and so she just told me to calm down and I was screaming that, you know, "They want me to cooperate and I don't want to cooperate, don,t make me cooperate, don't make we do this," and she -- she said it was okay, don't worry, don't worry, and then she talked to Mike Emmick and they let her come down. So, I mean, she -- I don't know.
A JUROR: Did you feel better after you talked to your mother?
A: Oh, yeah.
A JUROR: Gained that support?
A JUROR: Okay.
A: Yeah. I mean --
A JUROR: And what were you thinking about Linda at this time?
A: Linda? Did you say --
A JUROR: Mm-hmm. Did you know exactly what had happened? That you had been --
A: No. I was under the impression that -- what I was thinking at that point was that they had -- that they had listened in on our conversation on the phone and that then they came to her and said she was in trouble for something and that then she let them listen in on this lunch conversation because she had said "They did the same thing to me. They did the same thing to me." So I didn't understand what she meant by that.
And then she said, "This is the best thing for you," as if I was left to believe that she had -- this was somehow something she had done and that she was trying to help me.
And I thought, "Why did she tell them? Why didn't she just say it was nonsense, it wasn't true? Why did she tell them that I had had this relationship with him? And so -- you know -- and they had pictures of me at lunch with her. So --
A JUROR: The pictures were the taped lunch?
A: Yes. The wire lunch.
A JUROR: The wired lunch.
A: Yes. So that -- because they -- because I had said on one of the tapes that -- you know, if there was a tape of me -- I had -- I had -- I didn't know how the Paula Jones people had gotten my name and I thought maybe they had tapped my phone or maybe they had broken into my computer and read my e-mails.
I didn't know how I had gotten involved in this case and so I had said to Linda, "Well, if they have me on tape, I'll just say it's not me. I'll just say it's not me. I'll deny it. I'll deny everything."
A JUROR: So they took pictures.
A: Right. So they said, "We have you on tape saying that you'd deny it and we have pictures to prove that you were there." So ...
A JUROR: During this time in the hotel with them, did you feel threatened?
A JUROR: Did you feel that they had set a trap?
A: I -- I -- I did and I had -- I didn't understand -- I didn't understand why they -- why they had to trap me into coming there, why they had to trick me into coming there. I mean, this had all been a set-up and that's why -- I mean, that was just so frightening. It was so incredibly frightening. And they told me, you know, over and over again I was free to leave whenever I wanted, but -- I -- I didn't -- I didn't know that there's a grand jury and indicted and then you go to jail. I mean, and a trial and everything. I didn,t understand that.
And so I didn't -- you know, then there was something that, well, if I partially cooperate, they'll talk to the judge, some -- you know, we're prepared to indict you or something like that for all these things. And I just didn't --
Q: MS. IMMERGUT: So you didn't know what would happen if you left.
A: No. And then it wasn't until my mom was there that Mike Emmick cleared it up and said to my mom, "Well, it's not that we'll arrest you tonight when you leave the hotel." You know. Because I didn't -- I didn't know.
Q: And you didn't end up cooperating that evening.
A, No, I didn't. Because -- well --
A JUROR: Excuse me. When you said they trapped you, you went there on the invitation of Linda for lunch or something?
A JUROR: So, I mean, how did -- I mean, in your mind, how did you get to the fact that they were the one? Wasn't it just Linda?
A: No, because they were with Linda. When I met Linda in the food court at Pentagorr City, the two agents were with her.
A JUROR: Oh, okay.
A: Yeah. And that's where -- so it was right -- have you ever been to Pentagon City mall?
A JUROR: Mm-hmm.
A: So it was right down in the food court, you know the escalator to come down is over here?
A JUROR: Mm-hm.
A: So -- see, they were with here when she met me right -- right in the middle.
A JUROR: Okay.
A: And that's where -- and then --
A JUROR: I think that's all the questions on that topic. There is one other question. Going back to Monday night and the President's speech, what did you want or expect to hear from the President?
A: I think what I wanted and expected were two different things. I had -- I had been hurt when he referred to me as "that woman" in January, but I was also glad. I was glad that he made that statement and I felt that was the best thing for him to do, was to deny this. And -- but I had been hurt. I mean, it showed me how angry he was with me and I understood that. And his -- the people who work for him have trashed me, they claim they haven't said anything about me, they have smeared me and they called me stupid, they said I couldn't write, they said I was a stalker, they said I wore inappropriate clothes, I mean, you all know.
I mean, you've heard them in here, you've read the papers, you've seen on TV, and yet -- and then when it came out about the talking points, then somehow no one ever asked the question, well, how could -- if she was so stupid and she couldn't write, how is it possible that she wrote the talking points? So then it was, well, someone must have helped her with that. Oh, it's okay, though, it wasn't someone in the White House.
So I just -- my family had been maligned because of a lot of their tactics and I felt that -- I had wanted him to say that I was a nice, decent person and that he was sorry this had happened because I -- I tried to do as much as I could to protect him.
I mean, I didn't -- I didn't -- I didn't allow him to be put on tape that night and I didn't -- and I -- I felt that I waited, you know, and I would have gone to trial had -- had -- in my mind, had there never been a point where the office of the Independent Counsel and myself could come to -- they could come to accept the truth I had to say, that that was the truth I had to give, and I'm only 24 and so I felt that I -- this has been hard for me and this has been hard on my family and I just wanted him to take back -- by saying something nice, he would have taken back every disgusting, horrible thing that anyone has said about me from that White House. And that was what I wanted.
What I expected him to do was to just acknowledge in his -- either in his apology -- you know, that first of all I think he should have straight out apologized and I think that he could have acknowledged that -- you know, apologized to me, I think, to the other people who were involved in this and to my family.
My -- my dad didn't know anything about the relationship and when he went on his -- the few interviews he did, he was telling the truth when he said he didn't know. But out of respect for the President and the presidency, he didn't say -- he could have easily said if this is true; X, Y and Z about the President, and I think that because my family didn't start a huge uproar about how wrong or improper or inappropriate it was for a 50-year-old man to be having a relationship with a young woman, we afforded him that, that was one less headache that he had to deal with, and I think he could have acknowledged that. That was what I expected. Does that --
A JUROR: Monica, none of us in this room are perfect. We all fall and we fall several times a day. The only difference between my age and when I was your age is now I get up faster. If I make a mistake and fall, I get up and brush myself off. I used to stay there a while after a mistake. That's all I have to say.
A: Thank you.
MS. IMMERGUT: Let me just check with Mike.
THE FOREPERSON:We do want to share something with her.
MS. IMMERGUT: Okay. So do you want to -- why don't we hold off for just a second and let me check with Mr. Emmick.
MS. IMMERGUT: We don't have any further questions.
A JUROR: Could I ask one? Monica, is there anything that you would like to add to your prior testimony, either today or the last time you were here, or anything that you think needs to be amplified on or clarified? I just want to give you the fullest opportunity.
A: I would. I think because of the public nature of how this investigation has been and what the charges aired, that I would just like to say that no one ever asked me to lie and I was never promised a job for my silence.
And that I'm sorry. I'm really sorry for everything that's happened. (The witness begins to cry.) And I hate Linda Tripp.
A JUROR: Can I just say -- I mean, I think I should seize this opportunity now, that we've all fallen short. We sin every day. I don't care whether it's murder, whether it's affairs or whatever. And we get over that. You ask forgiveness and you go on.
There's some that are going to say that they don't forgive you, but he whose sin -- you know -- that's how I feel about that. So to let you know from here, you have my forgiveness. Because we all fall short.
A JUROR: And that's what I was trying to say.
A JUROR: That's what it's about.
A: Thank you.
A JUROR: And I also want to say that even though right now you feel a lot of hate for Linda Tripp, but you need to move on and leave her where she is because whatever goes around comes around.
A JUROR:It comes around.
A JUROR:It does.
A JUROR:And she in definitely going to have to give an account for what she did, so you need to just go past her and don't keep her because that's going to keep you out.
A JUROR: That's right.
A JUROR: And going to keep you from moving on.
A JUROR: Allowing you to move on.
Q: MRS. IMMERGUT: And just to clarify, and I know we've discussed this before, despite your feelings about Linda Tripp, have you lied to this grand jury about anything with regard to Linda Tripp because you don't like her?
A: I don't think that was necessary. No. It wouldn't have been necessary to lie. I think she's done enough on her own, so --
Q: You would not do that just because of your feelings about her.
FOREPERSON: Basically what we wanted to leave with, because this will probably be your last visit to us, I hope, I hope I'm not going to have to do this any more and I hope you won't have to come here any more, but we wanted to offer you a bouquet of good wishes that includes luck, success, happiness and blessings.
A: Thank you. (The witness begins to cry.) I appreciate all of your understanding for this situation and your -- your ability to open your heart and your mind and -- and your soul. I appreciate that.
FOREPERSON: So if there's nothing else?
MR. EMMICK: Nothing else.
FOREPERSON: We'd like to excuse you and thank you very much for your testimony.
A: Thank you.
(The witness was excused.)
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