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Tripp Tape Excerpts

Friday, October 2, 1998

Following are Associated Press excerpts from Linda Tripp's taped conversations with Monica Lewinsky. The House Judiciary Committee released edited transcripts of the conversations Friday. Tripp made the the tapes between Oct. 3 and Dec. 22, 1997; the precise date of each conversation was not apparent in the transcripts. Some of the language may be sexually explicit.

Tripp and Lewinsky, on the phone, discuss job offer from U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Bill Richardson:

LEWINSKY: ... We were sitting right near the entrance and so he kind of came in and so I said "Ambassador Richardson, Monica Lewinsky." He said, "Oh, hi. How are you?" And, I introduced him to my mom and to Peter and then he said something or another and said "Well, we're just waiting for you. The ball's in your court."

TRIPP: Unreal.

LEWINSKY: "I want to hire you."

TRIPP: I don't believe this. Where were you at dinner?

LEWINSKY: We went to 21.

TRIPP: Yeah? Who was he there with?

LEWINSKY: His wife.

TRIPP: Is that not the most bizarre thing?

LEWINSKY: It was so weird. It was really weird. Like really weird.

TRIPP: ... Do you – when you're up there, though, do you feel like you're gonna enjoy living there?

LEWINSKY: ... I just kind of feel like – I feel really cheated, you know. ... And I said I feel like I'm moving to New York and – because I have to, but it's not what I would be doing by choice. ...

LEWINSKY: ... She (Lewinsky's mother) said, ... `Monica, if you went back there, let alone that all these people are nasty and they're venomous. She goes, `You would just – be just as miserable as you are now.' You know, she was like, `He would never see you enough. It would never be enough.' ...

... and there is some truth to that because ... I was upset, when I worked there about him. ...

... I was constantly, constantly thinking he forgot who I was. ...

TRIPP: Well, how could he have forgotten who you were when you were seeing him?

LEWINSKY: ... I was crazy, Linda. I mean, it seems to me that it was like if I didn't see him, then he forgot who I was. ...

... And if he didn't call, he forgot who I was.

... I don't know if you know this or not or ever realized it, but – you know, I got over (REDACTED) with the creep. ...

... Right before this had happened, right before this started with the creep, I had gone to Portland in the end of October. ... And I had not seen Andy since July, and I had gone there pretty much to see my friends and to see him. ...

... and then we did end up getting together, but it wasn't that great. And then – I was there about a week. And so then I went to see him again and we were supposed to fool around, and he like pulled all this (REDACTED) on me. He didn't want to do this anymore, he couldn't do it, he couldn't do it. And I ... was like hysterically crying.

TRIPP: Mm-hmm.

LEWINSKY: So I was – hated his guts, you know? Came back from Portland and ... got my hair done, and ... like a week and half later was when this whole thing started.

TRIPP: A week and a half later is when what started?

LEWINSKY: The stuff with the creep. ...

LEWINSKY: It was like shifting my focus, and so it was, it was so, like important, for me to get over Andy. I mean, it was just funny, he was the vehicle for it, you know?

TRIPP: Mm-hmm.

LEWINSKY: But – so-- that contributed a little, I think, to – to my--

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: – whatever with him, you know. And I really – I really felt like, oh, there's a different girl every day and he was gonna forget. You know, I mean, when this first happened, I mean, I said to my mom, I said, "Well, I think he just fooled around with me because his girlfriend was probably furloughed."

TRIPP: You idiot.

LEWINSKY: I'm not kidding you. That's what I thought.

TRIPP: Oh, my God. Monica –

LEWINSKY: So, I don't know. It's just-- you know, and she's right. She's right. It would be – I mean, I would get to see him more. I think I'd have more time with him.

TRIPP: I read that he spent the night at, um-- or was it on the news today – at Steven Spielberg's partner's house? Castlebaum or Castleman or something.

LEWINSKY: Oh, really?



TRIPP: I don't know. I don't know who that is. I don't know anything about him. One of the Dreamworks people.

LEWINSKY: Yeah. Well, you know what's funny is this is – I don't know which came – well I'm sure the plans for him to stay there came before, but, you know, about a week ago, there was this thing in The New York Post saying that, um, they had offered him to be a partner in Dreamworks when he becomes ex-president and that they had already staked out this land and had – have already bought him a house out there.

TRIPP: You're kidding.

LEWINSKY: No. Isn't that funny? So, I mean, I don't know. I think what makes more sense is someone got wind that he was gonna stay there, because I'm sure those plans were made before –

TRIPP: Right.

LEWINSKY: You know –

TRIPP: There's always leaks.

...LEWINSKY: I got – oh – oh – and I bought a beautiful, beautiful, rad red very thin silk sweater top.


LEWINSKY: That – it's for my next visit – if I ever have one again.

TRIPP: You in red. Yes.

LEWINSKY: Which I think I will. I think eventually I'll have to, right?

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: I have to give him his Christmas present.

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: It probably won't be for forever, but –

TRIPP: Just because you wear a red sweater does not mean you have to wear red lipstick.

LEWINSKY: I understand that.

TRIPP: Okay. I'm just trying to--

LEWINSKY: I wouldn't ever wear red lipstick to see him.

TRIPP: Good.

...TRIPP: Well, you may have reason to call because you may end up --um-- hearing something from Vernon.

LEWINSKY: And so what? So what do I need to say? Well, just I took something, or what?

TRIPP: Well, no. You're gonna discuss it with him, aren't you?

LEWINSKY: You know, I don't know. I kind of feel like what's the point? Why should I have to discuss it with him? Why should I have to go through the stress and the anxiety of trying to get him on the phone? You know? I don't know.

TRIPP: I don't know that I'd stop my dialogue with Betty just – you might want to cool it with him for a little bit.

LEWINSKY: Oh, you know what? And Betty is a real big help, isn't she?

TRIPP: Oh, I don't know. I can't – you know, I go from one way or the other. At least she smuggled you in the other day and hid you.


LEWINSKY: ... (sigh) – I don't know. What would happen if, gee, I don't know, he wanted to see me on his own? Wouldn't that be nice?

TRIPP: Yeah. I wouldn't hold my breath on that one right now, not in the disengaged mode he's in. ... He owes you an explanation.

LEWINSKY: So – and I'd just like to say so, you know, and if you can't explain it to me, then I think you – somebody owes you an explanation.

TRIPP: He can explain it.

LEWINSKY: You know? But, I mean, it's just jobs, seven different things I could have done. And that's not asking for too much, either. ... I'll never forget when he said something or another to me, he said, "Well, you can, you know, go wherever you want – well, within reason." Well, that's what he said to me. And I – you know, I thought to myself – I didn't say it. I bit my tongue – but I was thinking, "No, you (deleted), I'm gonna say I want to be chief of staff."

... TRIPP: The whole thing is – is so just fundamentally unfair.


TRIPP: I mean – I don't know. I-- I-- I-- hate him for it, but on the other hand, I understand why he would have felt awkward. But I think he owes you that truth. I really do. ... You know, you're the type of person who would accept that, you know, if he were frank with you.

... LEWINSKY: I think – I think that – and I think you've said this, too, but I think part of him wanted to bring me back because he promised me, he felt bad what happened. But I think a big part of him didn't.

TRIPP: ... I think he has a problem. And I think he knows he has a problem. And I think he knows that faced with temptation, with a willing partner that he finds sexy, he would not be able to mend his ways. And whether or not he's mending his ways on the road or any other place, I believe him when he says he wants to behave to a certain extent because –

LEWINSKY: I think he talked himself out of even being attracted to me. I really do.

TRIPP: Really?

LEWINSKY: Uh – there is just like nothing there. I mean, it's just weird, because there was something there last month, but there was nothing there the other night. ...

TRIPP: It – it's unfair. To everybody. I mean, it's just stupid. If it had been me, I would have – I would have begged you not to go for that 60-second visit.

LEWINSKY: Because I didn't know it was gonna be 60 seconds.

TRIPP: Yeah, true.

LEWINSKY: You know? I – I thought it would be 15 minutes. So all right. I'm going to bed.

... LEWINSKY: I don't see how like, you know I don't feel like anybody is saying "Gee you know I am really sorry this happened. I am really sorry. You got really (delete) over and it's someone's fault."

TRIPP: Well maybe he feels maybe he has made himself feel that the fact that his people got you a job at the Pentagon--


TRIPP: Means that you were taken care of, kind of thing.


TRIPP: I mean it was more money right?

LEWINSKY: Um, a little bit, but not much. Part of it was--

TRIPP: But you didn't – the good thing is you didn't have to take a loss.

LEWINSKY: No. ... But I mean who can, who can put a price, I mean you know this. ... Who can put a price on working there? I mean, I was thinking when I was in New York I will never work in a place as beautiful. ... I will never work in as a prestigious place. ...

TRIPP: I know. It seems unfair. It seems grossly unfair, actually. ... Well, he's into kind of denial anyway. ... I mean he denied Kathleen Willey to you.


TRIPP: And do I believe he harassed her? Of course not. I mean in the true sense of the world, the word, of course, not. Do I think he kissed her? Yeah.

LEWINSKY: You know.

TRIPP: It's hard to fake beard burn. Thank God, I didn't say that.


LEWINSKY: I'm just – I'm starting to get a little nervous about Vernon.


LEWINSKY: I don't know. I – uh – I think – I just want everything to be easy. I want him to call me and say, "You know, how does this amount of money, doing this here sound?" And I say, "That's sound great." He says, "Okay. Consider it a done deal."

TRIPP: Mm-hmm.

LEWINSKY: You know? And then I get some call from personnel, whatever the place is, and, "We understand you're joining our staff," you know? ...

... TRIPP: Well, I'm just saying, you know, you can also hold his feet to the fire just a little bit if – if what he comes up with doesn't appeal to you, he – there are many choices there. ...


TRIPP: The ultimate thing is if this is your last hurrah, you'd better get something out of it that's – you know, that you can stick with. Because this is a good stepping stone. It's not many times that you're going to have someone of that stature opening a door for you.

LEWINSKY: Yeah. ... I just wish I didn't have all this emotional stuff. I wish I could be like him. (Redacted).

TRIPP: Oh, I'm so glad you're not.

LEWINSKY: ... I guarantee you he has not gone through one ounce of pain having to do with me in the past six, seven months. He just – threw it all away, you know?

TRIPP: And, of course, we don't know any of that.

LEWINSKY: Well, you know what –

TRIPP: Well, we don't. You always say we don't, and we don't know.

LEWINSKY: Linda, you know? What good is – what good is whatever it is, whatever it is – if he feels anything, what good is it, because he doesn't act on it? So it's nothing.

TRIPP: Well, he stopped acting on it.

LEWINSKY: Well – you know. But I just got mad today when I started thinking about all of the times, you know, that it's like – Betty didn't get to him.

TRIPP: Hah –

LEWINSKY: But, you know, the flip side of it, too, though, Linda, is that it's like, well, when's the last time I went there because he wanted to see me on his own? You know?

TRIPP: I don't know.

LEWINSKY: February.

TRIPP: Really?


TRIPP: Yeah, it's a long time.

LEWINSKY: You know? I think – February or maybe March. ...

... LEWINSKY: Mm-hmm. You know, it's November.

TRIPP: It's hard to believe.

LEWINSKY: It's hard, you know.

TRIPP: (Sigh.)

LEWINSKY: It's gonna be hard for a long time. (Sigh.)

TRIPP: Well, the bright side is that if you do get a wonderful job in New York and get settled in a place and start a new life, that this could be the door that needed to open.


TRIPP: I mean, I believe things happen for a reason, although I have yet to figure out why this happened.

LEWINSKY: I can't figure it out. Nothing really good has come of it.

TRIPP: Maybe it's so that you can tell your grandchildren you had an affair with the you-know-what of the you-know-what.

... LEWINSKY: I don't think so. ... What if your grandma right now told you she had an affair with the president? How vastly would that change your grandma's life?

TRIPP: Nothing.

LEWINSKY: I did see the cutest boy in the elevator yesterday.

TRIPP: Oh, where?

LEWINSKY: At Bloomingdale's. He was so cute.

TRIPP: See? So much a bigger pool there.

LEWINSKY: It is. I like – you know, I like guys who have – he had a big scar on his forehead.

TRIPP: Mm-hmmm.

LEWINSKY: And I like that.

TRIPP: Monica –

LEWINSKY: I do. I just – I like somebody who looks a little different – you know what I mean?

TRIPP: With a scar?

LEWINSKY: Well, yeah.

TRIPP: Pfft.

LEWINSKY: No, but he was nice looking.

TRIPP: Well, I think we can safely agree that we don't agree on men. ...

... LEWINSKY: All right. Well, I'm sorry if that upset you.

TRIPP: Well, it was very – it was just --it didn't make me upset so much as just plain angry, you know? ...

... LEWINSKY: Okay someone, who didn't care about me and just looked at the situation –

TRIPP: Mm-hmm.

LEWINSKY: – would say, well, uh, you know, she didn't try and fool around with the President.

TRIPP: Oh, that's such a terrible thing to say.

LEWINSKY: But it's true, though. It true.

TRIPP: Wait. What's true? Like you did it be yourself?

LEWINSKY: But the United States President – right. Okay, I'm not saying – the difference is –

TRIPP: The difference is he did it –

LEWINSKY: It didn't happen to him.

TRIPP: Right. And also the difference is he's 50 years old and he should have known better. And he didn't have to pay a price – you did. Hugely. So don't tell me that. I mean you're not a stalker. You were an invited guest. You know? Hah. Don't talk to me about that. ...

... TRIPP: It's like – it makes you sound demented or something. I mean, it makes you – uh-- I that just angers me beyond belief. But it certainly keeps him in the clear. "Hey, we had to get her out of here, she was stalking me." ...

... TRIPP: Yeah. That part really does anger me because it's – it's a – a taint on your integrity and your reputation and your character, all of which is so richly undeserved, it's – it's – it's nauseating.


TRIPP: And, you know, you say what you did was wrong. Well, of course it was wrong, he was a married man. But, I mean, are you making a moral judgment here? I mean, because he's so far beyond moral judgments. And, in terms of labeling you the stalker, when it was a two-way street, kills me.

But the beauty of it is it has stayed internal, and it will never taint you down the road. And that is important, I mean, you will not suffer beyond the normal regret that you have to leave by that reputation. That won't go anywhere else.

LEWINSKY: You know what's sad? Is it's just I'm leaving, and there is nothing I gained from this experience. He – his behavior in the past few months has really – really just eroded any – any notion I ever had of – like a pleasant memory, you know.

TRIPP: Well, time has a real strange way of coloring things different ways, so maybe in a – in a few years, you'll see this differently. And it also depends on whether you continue to have any kind of relationship with him down the road.

LEWINSKY: Which I doubt.

TRIPP: You know. A friendship, a romantic – who knows? I mean, all of that will play into how your memory serves you.

LEWINSKY: I just wish I could do something-- I wish I could just do something that would make him go, "Gee, I was stupid," you know? Like, "Boy, it was really dumb to let her go" – or something.

TRIPP: Mm-hmm.

LEWINSKY: You know what I mean?

TRIPP: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

LEWINSKY: You know, he's – he never made calls when he comes home late. Never made sense to me, right? (He) calls me at 1:30, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock in the morning normally.

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: But – but he seems to – he has never called when he's gotten home at 12:00. ...

He gets home – I think he's going straight to Camp David – that's what I read somewhere – but the Baba won't be there.


LEWINSKY: You know. But I don't think he'd call. But maybe – I don't know. And I was thinking today, you know, would I have the nerve – would I have the nerve to sort of whisper into the phone, you know, something like "I can't talk, I have someone here."

TRIPP: Oh, God. ... Well, that would be food for thought, but I don't think so. I wouldn't do it.

LEWINSKY: I think – I just wonder.

TRIPP: I – I don't know. I hate games like that. ...

LEWINSKY: Yeah. Well, I don't like 'em either but sometimes you have to play 'em.

TRIPP: He – he doesn't need to know your private business anyway, even if it were true. I'm – I'm sure he never assumed he was the only one.

LEWINSKY: No, I know. But there's a big difference, OK? Isn't there a difference – I never assumed I'm the only one and there's a difference hearing about someone else.

TRIPP: Mmm. True.

LEWINSKY: You know?

TRIPP: All right. I have to go or I'm never gonna go.


New conversation:

LEWINSKY: ... My mom ... felt like I should send him the list and say, you know, I mentioned this to you and, you know, kind of keep trying to blame it on (deputy director of personnel Marsha Scott). ...

TRIPP: Well, because Marsha lied to you.

LEWINSKY: Yeah. You know, that's she said, too. I was hysterical. I called her from the phone booth, because she called me at work. ...

And then I was leaving so I was like, "I'll call you in a minute' and I was just crying in the phone booth.

TRIPP: Yeah. Well, she – you know, Marsha did lie to you. She (REDACTED) you over. ...

I do believe it was more a jealousy thing than anything else.

LEWINSKY: I don't know about jealousy.

TRIPP: A threatening thing. You know, because –

LEWINSKY: But I couldn't – I don't know. And may I have the wrong take on it, you know? Maybe I'm giving him too much credit. I kind of feel like he was – had Marsha charged forward and done what she was supposed to do ... he wouldn't have been upset.

LEWINSKY: I don't think he would have been upset if I actually got a job there.

TRIPP: Oh, I don't think so either.

LEWINSKY: But I think at the same time, he wasn't gonna – he wasn't going to, you know, have a fight with her about it. ...

TRIPP: And, also, I think he didn't want to leave himself open to having to get too much into it.

LEWINSKY: You know. And so my mom brought up a good point and she said, "Okay Monica, so all, so you want him to get an answer from these people and they'll say you know we were trying to protect you because if this thing came out it would be awful and she said, "And, what's he gonna say? He's gonna say, `Thanks for protecting me.' You know. That's what he's gonna say."

TRIPP: (Coughing) Hmmm.

LEWINSKY: And there's there's some truth to that.

TRIPP: But they didn't know you had an affair with him.

LEWINSKY: ... well, I don't know. Who do you ... think didn't know? ...

TRIPP: Well.

LEWINSKY: Marsha didn't know?

TRIPP: ... She doesn't know anything, does she? I mean she only knows what she suspects. Right? Who would have, who could have definitively told her? ... Did you ever get the sense that she perceived you as a girlfriend?

LEWINSKY: I don't know what she perceived me as. I don't know. Because the last conversation, you know, there was a there was a difference between when I first met with her and then after she talked to whomever it was in Legisative Affairs.

TRIPP: Mm-hmmm.

LEWINSKY: And there was a difference there and then there was an even bigger difference after you know the last conversation I had with her, I was much more frank. ... And, my mom just said, she goes: "Well, you know" because then I said, "Well, fine. Then I'll send this note to Marsha" you know and send him a copy." And she goes, "Why? So that they can say, `See how crazy and unstable she is? See how good it is that we didn't bring her back?"' You know?

TRIPP: Mm-hmm. ...

LEWINSKY: ... you know, I felt a little bit like ... what my mom is saying, there's a lot of truth to it. You know? And she said, "Look, life is not fair." ... Because she was saying, you know, "This is not a good situation. You were miserable when you worked there." And I said, "I understand that, you know." I said, "But I'm not ready to give it up because I know it's a bad situation." Do you know what I mean?

I, I have not said to myself, I have not said, "You know what, Monica? This is a bad situation. You should not be involved with this person. It's just-- there's no happiness here. You just need to get away from it."

TRIPP: Mm-hmmm. ...

LEWINSKY: I know it to be true, but I can't make that decision yet. And I just, you know, so I said to her, "I understand where you're coming from, but from where I'm coming from I'm just tired, I'm just tired of, of every week, there's something new."

TRIPP: Well, look. You can know something on an intellectual level and understand it and comprehend it and not know about it on an emotional (level). ...

LEWINSKY: ... And she just said, she said, "Look, he's gonna read that letter, and he's gonna get mad at you." I don't know.

TRIPP: I know how you feel though. You wish you could just show him.

LEWINSKY: Yeah. ... And it's like I can't, he hasn't even called me, you know?

TRIPP: When was the last time he called you?

(Sound of tone)

LEWINSKY: I talked to him a week ago.

TRIPP: A week ago. Well that's not – Can you hold on? My phone's beeping.


TRIPP: It might be Allison.


(Tape skip)

TRIPP: Hello?

Unidentified speaker: (REDACTED)

(Tape skip)

TRIPP: It's like I said before, I think you should sleep on it and then you may want to modify it, you may want to not do it all all. ... Is there any way you can put it out of your mind tonight ...


... TRIPP: Well, you know, I was thinking that you should be thinking about your finale with him.

LEWINSKY: Yeah. But I guess it will have to be – I don't know, around Christmas.

TRIPP: The other thing is, do you want to go to one of those Christmas parties there?

LEWINSKY: I don't know.

TRIPP: Because you could probably work an invitation, at the very least.

LEWINSKY: Well, you'd think a lot of things at the very least, but – uh –

TRIPP: I mean, you could take your mom.

LEWINSKY: My mom would vomit if she saw him.

TRIPP: I know.

LEWINSKY: I think she'd smack him.

TRIPP: I know.


TRIPP: It would freak him out, wouldn't it? ...

... LEWINSKY: ... I saw him on like Sunday and then I said to him, I said, "Oh, look for me at the arrival ceremony on blah, blah, blah. My mom and my aunt are coming."

TRIPP: But he didn't know which was which.

LEWINSKY: No, but he, you know, he said, " I saw them. They're cute." And I said, "Shut up."

TRIPP: (Laughing.)

LEWINSKY: Not that cute. Like, not cuter than me.

TRIPP: I wonder what he was thinking?

LEWINSKY: How he could do them, too.

TRIPP: Well, probably thinking it would be more appropriate to do them. I mean, they're even younger than he is, for God's sake.

LEWINSKY: Right. My mom is younger than he is.

TRIPP: Mm-hmm. I wonder if he ever reflects on the fact that here he is having a fling with someone that is close to his daughter's age. And I have to say in answer to my own question, I believe a lot he's thought about that, because I think that's a great big part.

LEWINSKY: He's never said it, and I thought if he –

TRIPP: Oh, God, Monica. He's not going to say that, because that just – that – that just brings to the forefront a really crummy issue. ...

LEWINSKY: Oh. (Sigh.) ...

... TRIPP: Good. Well, what are you gonna wear when you go to – ummm – L.A.?

LEWINSKY: Well, I have my black uniform. I'll wear that ...

... TRIPP: Okay.

LEWINSKY: And then I'm gonna wear the navy dress I wore to the radio address that still has the (REDACTED) on it for Thanksgiving.

TRIPP: Well, how – you're what, you're gonna get it cleaned?


TRIPP: Oh, God.

LEWINSKY: Well, I mean, like I haven't worn it for a year, you know?

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: It's about time. Out with the old, you know?

TRIPP: Oh, that's too bad.

LEWINSKY: I know ...

TRIPP: See, I think I would suggest another outfit for the radio address that makes you – I mean, for the radio address – for the Thanksgiving that makes you look so beautiful.

LEWINSKY: Well, that dress – I don't care about pretty; I care about thin. That's all I care about.

TRIPP: Well, okay. And this outfit makes you look thin and beautiful ...

Lewinsky and Tripp discuss a phone call to Betty Currie at the White House:

LEWINSKY: The first time I call, I said, "Listen, I have two things to tell you. First," and I did the Vernon thing.

Then I said, "Second, I got wind that the missus is leaving tomorrow, and since I know it's easier, he has a lot more flexibility when she's not there, I was thinking – I wanted to see if I could come see him for 15 minutes."

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: You know? So then she said, "Well, okay, I'll check with him." And then I said –

TRIPP: And that was before I left, right?


TRIPP: Okay.

...LEWINSKY: You know? I said in the note to him – it was probably stupid now.

TRIPP: What?

LEWINSKY: Because I sort of was like – you know what, I want to take him. Hhh.

TRIPP: Well, I don't blame you.

LEWINSKY: You know? But then I – what I said in the note, it's like if I say now I want to take him, it's gonna be mishy-moshy.


LEWINSKY: Well, because I said to him – you know, I'm like, "Pay attention to his facial expressions when he meets you," you know? I'm like, "That's what I wanted to see."

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: You know? And something or another. And then I make a joke and I said, "And I want a full report."

...TRIPP: Well, I guess it's possible she passed the card that you sent in. Who signs for that card, by the way?

LEWINSKY: What do you mean?

TRIPP: Well, whenever you courier stuff, who signs for it?

LEWINSKY: The intern.

TRIPP: Is she – she doesn't know about you.


TRIPP: All right. I just get worried.

LEWINSKY: Well, I know.

TRIPP: I wonder if she's a Nancy person.

LEWINSKY: No. It's Betty's intern, and I think it's a boy.

TRIPP: It's a boy?

LEWINSKY: I think so. Uh – they're finally getting smart. But then the other thing then – then the second time when I called, she asked me – she said, "Well, did you mention any of this to him – "

TRIPP: Uh-huh.

LEWINSKY: " – in the card." And I – and I – or she said something. "Did you say anything in the letter?" That's what she said to me. And I thought at first maybe she meant "anything" – she needed to be careful, to make sure he threw it away, or whatever –

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: – and blah, blah, blah. And I said, "Well, what --" and then I sort of hesitated and she goes, "Well, did you mention that you wanted to see him in the note?"

And I said, "Well, yeah, but I asked him if I could come by on Saturday morning. I didn't know what time he was leaving." And she said, "Oh, well, I think he's leaving too early." I said, "Well, then, you know, maybe tomorrow (inaudible)." And she goes, "There are a lot of people around." So –

TRIPP: Mm-hmm. I – I – I – you know what? I get – I get very skeptical of Betty. Because sometimes it – it's as clear as the writing on your face that this shouldn't be hard, you know. But, unfortunately, she's the only way to get to them.

LEWINSKY: I mean, maybe I can say I – I mean, you know, I'm going to (REDACTED) call her tomorrow morning –

TRIPP: I know.

LEWINSKY: And maybe I can say, "You know, maybe you can try and talk to him sooner rather than later. Look what happened last time." I may say that.

TRIPP: Yeah. That's not – that's not – you know, look –

LEWINSKY: Or – or maybe "Let's not have a repeat of last week."


...LEWINSKY: I don't know if he'll pick this up or not. He probably won't because he's such an idiot –

TRIPP: Hmpf.

LEWINSKY: – but when I said – remember I told you about the song? Well, I said, "When I was stuck hiding out in your office for half an hour --"

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: " – you know, last week, I noticed you have CDs – "

TRIPP: Yeah, this may be the first time he knows how long you were in there.

LEWINSKY: Exactly. Like, "Wait a minute. You were in there for half an hour?"

TRIPP: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's pretty good, too.

LEWINSKY: But I don't know that he'll get that, you know? I don't think he'll think to himself, "Oh, you were in there for half an hour, and I was there, but I only saw you for 60 seconds. Why was that?" You know? I don't know.

TRIPP: He's a bright man. It'll cross his mind.

LEWINSKY: I don't know. So I just – I'm just mad, you know? (Sigh.)


TRIPP: ... This navy blue dress. Now all I would say to you is: I know how you feel today and I know why you feel the way you do today, but you have a very long life ahead of you. ... I would rather you had that in your possession if you need it years from now. That's all I'm gonna say.

LEWINSKY: You think that I can hold onto a dress for 10, 15 years with (REDACTED) from . ...

TRIPP: Hey, listen. My cousin is a genetic whatchamacalit . ...


TRIPP: . ... and during O.J. Simpson, I questioned all the DNA and do you know what he told me?


TRIPP: ... He said that on a rape victim now ... if she has preserved a pinprick size of crusted semen, 10 years from that time, if she takes a wet Q-Tip and blobs it on there ... they can match the DNA with absolutely with certainty.

LEWINSKY: So why I (sic) can't I scratch that ... off and put it in a plastic bag?

TRIPP: You can't scratch it off. You would have to use a Q-Tip.

And I feel like this is what I would tell my own daughter. ...

LEWINSKY: Well, I'll think about it. ...

TRIPP: ... It could be your only insurance policy down the road. Or it could never be needed and you can throw it away.

But I – I never, ever want to read about your going off the deep end because someone comes out and calls you a stalker or something and you have and he confirms it. ...

Maybe I'm being paranoid. ...

LEWINSKY: ... I am so annoyed with Betty.

TRIPP: I know. I know.

LEWINSKY: I am so annoyed with her. ... And I feel like ... didn't we go through this last week?


LEWINSKY: You know?

TRIPP: And look what happened. A 60 (REDACTED) second visit. (Sigh.) ... You know, I think sometimes – and this is not to take her side because, believe me, I don't. I think sometimes she just doesn't know what the (REDACTED) to do. Like if she doesn't know if she has the nerve to tell you she didn't get a chance to talk to him. She's a wimp. I betcha anything that what you would feel comfortable doing, look, he's not that – he's – he's a pretty decent guy to work for, other than when he erupts.

LEWINSKY: Right. No, I know. ...

TRIPP: ... but somehow she's got this hero worship (REDACTED) going on with him. And maybe she is intimidated to – to take the initiative. Do you know what I'm saying? And then she's faced with, "Oh, God, now I have to tell her I didn't do it yet."

LEWINSKY: But the thing I don't understand is I'm gonna call and trap her anyway, so why not at least score some (REDACTED) brownie points for herself?

TRIPP: Yeah. I don't understand. Plus, I could be – I told you last week when he went golfing after he had suggested that you come over, I knew in my gut something was really, really wrong, or he didn't know. And he didn't know. He did not know because she didn't tell him. So you would think she would have learned her lesson. So probably what she plans to do, I bet anything, is tomorrow she'll say something at some point.

LEWINSKY: ... It's like the radio address is at 6:15, and I need to make arrangements to leave. I have to go home and change – if I get to go to that at least.

But, see, but this is the thing I don't understand. What I'm – what I'm not understanding for myself is if I take Carl to the radio address, I'm not gonna get to spend any time with the creep.

TRIPP: No, that's right. That's why I'm not sure that's the best solution.


TRIPP: Because I thought that you would be escorted out the same way they would be.

LEWINSKY: Right. ... I think I need to write on a note and say to him, "Look, I don't want to go through what happened last Thursday of, you know – ... of me relying on Betty to try and talk to you."

TRIPP: Right.

LEWINSKY: "So this is what I'd like to do. I don't think it's asking too much." I guess I shouldn't –

TRIPP: Actually, you could put it as a choice situation. You could say, "I can – " Well, I don't know if you want to do this, but you could say, "I can bring Carl along and escort him out and stay and visit for a few minutes, or I can wait until you've done and come on over for 15 minutes then."

LEWINSKY: Well, the problem is Nancy, OK? And – and I think I need to just say this to him in a note. ... I can't come when Nancy and Steven are there. ...

... LEWINSKY: Betty's going on the trip. So what it means is that first of all, she's probably going to need to go home and pack.


LEWINSKY: You know? But I don't care. Let her stay up all night. You know what I mean?

TRIPP: All right. ...

... LEWINSKY: But the only way this is gonna work, OK – the only, only, only way it can work is if he leaves the office and Betty stays, because then Nancy will leave.

TRIPP: I know. But, you know what, I don't know that she suggests that level of detail to him.

LEWINSKY: I understand. But I suggested that to him once before, and he just ignored it. But maybe I just need to suggest it again.

TRIPP: You mean in a note?

LEWINSKY: Yeah. ...

... LEWINSKY: You know? I'm tired of having to pussyfoot around everybody. I'm leaving.

TRIPP: You are leaving. You're right. Well, Monica, my – my feeling is you haven't said anything tonight that I would feel would be threatening to him –


TRIPP: – to put him in a note.

LEWINSKY: But, you know what's interesting? And I – it's like I'd love to be able to tell this to him in person – is I would not be getting angry right now, had Betty done what she should have done.

TRIPP: Oh, I know.

LEWINSKY: Do you see what I mean?

TRIPP: Yep. Yes, I do. I – I--I she stymies me. She – she – she makes me speechless. The level of sheer stupidity sometimes. Because I can't think it's intentional because it causes such severe ramification down the road. It can't be.

LEWINSKY: They don't think that, Linda ...

New tape:

... TRIPP: Oh yeah, right. Oh, listen. I don't want to talk about me or the weekend or anything, but ... about this thing coming up. Are you prepared?

LEWINSKY: I am not prepared. I am not prepared at all and I don't know what to do.

TRIPP: OK ... Uh, are you comfortable with how it's arranged?

LEWINSKY: No, I'm not comfortable.

TRIPP: How has this all happened?

LEWINSKY: I – I - you know what? I don't like this situation at all because I can't win for losing, OK? I'm not comfortable meeting him in his hotel room.

TRIPP: His hotel room?

LEWINSKY: That is how it is planned as of now.

TRIPP: Don't you dare, Monica.

LEWINSKY: You know?

TRIPP: You go into his hotel room and – and – I will never speak to you again.

LEWINSKY: Well, I don't know what I'm supposed to do because guess what, I thought of what the alternative is, right? So I go to breakfast with him, right?

TRIPP: Go into the – doesn't it have a place for breakfast?

LEWINSKY: It does, OK, and if someone sees me having breakfast with him –

TRIPP: Listen to me. You are totally covered with that. Even if anyone saw you, he's a friend of Peter Strauss' or he's a friend of Walter Kaye's. There's a million things you can say. This is just totally ludicrous. You go into his hotel room, you are setting yourself up. You are not doing it.

LEWINSKY: Well, what am I supposed to say?

TRIPP: (Sigh) Yes, you say – tell me what the options at the Watergate are? Let's discuss them.

LEWINSKY: OK. There's a restaurant, Aquarelle.

... TRIPP: OK. This is not even hard. You live there. This is totally explainable. You live there. He's a friend of the family. That is it.

LEWINSKY: OK, and somebody sees it and somebody gets the wrong idea, breakfast with someone? Do you know –

TRIPP: ... The only wrong idea they could get is that you're having an affair with him. ... Let them think what they want. It's not true. ... You do not go to the ambassador of the United Nation's hotel (REDACTED) room.


TRIPP: That's out of the question. Use your head.

LEWINSKY: If I say something, isn't that also insulting to him?

TRIPP: No. No. You are an adult. No female in her right mind would say, "Oh, sure, that's fine." No. No. And, you don't suggest it's improper you just say, "I'd prefer it if we could meet – I'd suggest that we meet at blah, blah, have breakfast together." That makes sense. It's out in the public. ...

LEWINSKY: I don't know what I'm supposed to say to him. That (REDACTED) better call me tomorrow night 'cause he can. I imagine he will.

TRIPP: Well, you can make it happen, and how you can make it happen is you call Betty and remind her, "Could you please let him know that I need to speak to him tomorrow – tonight before I meet with him."

... LEWINSKY: Oh, I'm such a wreck. ...

TRIPP: And Nel didn't seem to think so?

LEWINSKY: He didn't even mention that, so –

TRIPP: Oh, well, then, he figures he can cover that.

LEWINSKY: You know?

TRIPP: Well, I think it's totally doable. I don't know that you should broach it right away.

LEWINSKY: No. I know. But my – you know, I don't even know when I'm going to get to see him again, 'cause, you know, I –

TRIPP: Here's what you could suggest.


TRIPP: You could suggest that if he's in New York alone –

LEWINSKY: That's never going to happen. He never goes to New York alone.

TRIPP: Ah, but he does go on foreign trips alone.

LEWINSKY: Well, I can't go on a foreign trip.

TRIPP: Well, you can if you're at the U.N.

LEWINSKY: Oh, oy, no, please. I don't want to go to the U.N.

TRIPP: (Laughter)

LEWINSKY: I don't want to go to the U.N. I don't want to have anything – I don't want a job that has to do with him.

TRIPP: Yeah, that's true. ... Monica please promise me you will not meet this guy in a hotel room.

LEWINSKY: I cannot promise you that. What I can promise you –

TRIPP: Yes, you can.

LEWINSKY: Linda, Linda –

TRIPP: Monica –

LEWINSKY: – Linda –

TRIPP: – whose best interests are we thinking about here?

LEWINSKY: I'm thinking about my own. But let me tell you something. ...

I will promise you that I'm going to broach the subject with (Isabelle Watkins, executive assistant to Bill Richardson) and suggest to her that we meet in the room – in the – in the – in the restaurant. I am not going to push this to the point where this becomes a big issue and a scene.

TRIPP: I don't think it has to be. I just think you need to be firm.

LEWINSKY: Well, I think that suggesting it as (sic) firm as I can get.

TRIPP: Monica, you hold the cards.

LEWINSKY: No, Linda, I don't hold the cards and I'm not going to start causing trouble with this.

TRIPP: Monica, please think about what you're saying.

LEWINSKY: I understand what you're saying, and I would – if this were a situation – I do not want my first experience – OK –

TRIPP: You cannot go to his hotel room, Monica. That is just sheer stupidity. How do you know he's not setting you up?

LEWINSKY: For what?

TRIPP: I don't know.

LEWINSKY: A friend of John Podesta's he's going to set up?

TRIPP: Yeah. Think about it for a minute. What if you're a problem and what if John Podesta thinks – just think about this for a minute. What if John Podesta thinks a good way to neutralize you is to put you in a compromising situation? Then if ever you decide to become a crazy woman, they can say, "Oh, please, she propositioned Bill Richardson at the Watergate."

I mean you – Monica, this is big stuff. You don't go into a huge personage's hotel room. It's just – it's lunacy.

LEWINSKY: What if those people don't meet with – I mean, I'll tell you something. OK, I'm just saying – I – I understand what you're saying, OK?

TRIPP: It's – it's – it's so dangerous.

LEWINSKY: I understand what you're saying, and I'm also telling you that being on a (REDACTED) trip, there is no way in hell, no way in hell, the (REDACTED) would meet with anybody in the restaurant at the hotel, no way in hell.

TRIPP: Isn't he – is he coming down with an entourage? You don't know that.

LEWINSKY: I'm sure he is. He is coming – I don't know – I'm sure he – there will be more than one person there. I don't know that there'll be more – I don't think there'll be more – I don't think there'll be more than one person in the meeting. There might be. I doubt it, but I'm not sure. ...

But I can't – that's why I'm saying I can't go making demands like that. I can suggest it.

TRIPP: (sigh) You know, I'd almost rather you meet him at the White House then.

LEWINSKY: What? How – how am I supposed to meet him at the White House?

TRIPP: I'm just trying to think. ...

LEWINSKY: He's going to Capitol Hill. I understand what you're saying, you know. But I also – you know, it's not – I'm just looking at it from the point of a (REDACTED). The (REDACTED) would never meet with somebody in the hotel restaurant.

TRIPP: Yeah. What time are you supposed to meet with him?

LEWINSKY: At 8:30.

TRIPP: (sigh) Oh, God. How long do you think you'll be in there?

LEWINSKY: A half an hour to an hour. I don't know.

TRIPP: That's long enough to make it look like something if it ever got that devious.

LEWINSKY: I don't think they would.

TRIPP: I don't trust them, OK? That's all I'm saying.

LEWINSKY: Well, I don't think they would. And I – you know, I appreciate your concern on that, but – if I talk to the creep I'm going to tell him that. I'm going to say, "Gee, I sure hope" – well, I don't want to say that because that's too reminiscent of what's her face, P.J. ...

TRIPP: (sigh) But alternatively, I'd prefer that you go to New York and meet with him in his office. Who are they gonna believe, a 24-year-old girl--

LEWINSKY: But, Linda ... I don't think it's an issue.

TRIPP: What if it is?

LEWINSKY: Why is this ever going to become an issue? I don't understand.

TRIPP: Because what if – just what if Podesta's doing something sneaky?

LEWINSKY: OK. What – what is sneaky? He's gonna come and say that – that Bill Richardson's going to come out and say, "This girl attacked me?" No, I'm never going to do anything. I am never going to do anything so –

TRIPP: (sigh) I guess I'm just being paranoid.

LEWINSKY: You are being paranoid. Because I'm never going to come forward with this. So as far as I know –

TRIPP: I know that. ... I'm not saying you would ever come forward with this. I'm just saying –

LEWINSKY: And if someone else did, I would deny, deny, deny.

TRIPP: Yeah, I know, but ... I don't know. I guess I'm just seeing too much of this Paula Jones deposition (REDACTED) on TV and everything. It's just making me very upset, the whole thing.

LEWINSKY: Why does it upset you?

TRIPP: Because it's so manipulative. I mean –

LEWINSKY: It's not manipulative. You know what? She said her character was defamed, and her reputation was ruined. If her reputation was (REDACTED) before, then what was ruined?

TRIPP: Yeah, I know. It just looks like, you know, they're bringing them out of – now this Gennifer Flowers thing and I just said, oh my God.

LEWINSKY: I mean, but those are all people, I mean, you're looking at people who are proclaimed, self-proclaimed lovers of his.

TRIPP: All of them?


TRIPP: Yeah, I guess even that one in – wherever she's from.

LEWINSKY: The book writer?

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: Her book is not fiction.

TRIPP: Well, it's being touted as fiction.

LEWINSKY: Well, whatever. ... You know, nobody I know – the only person that I am not friends with anymore who knows about this is Andy, and I guarantee you his ass won't ever say anything, because I will ruin his life, and he knows it.

TRIPP: Well, he has enough to lose, doesn't he.


TRIPP: I mean, his wife would get an earful, wouldn't she? I mean, obviously, Andy would lose more by opening his mouth.

LEWINSKY: Right. That's what I'm saying. That's why I know – that's why I know – I don't worry about Andy.

... TRIPP: Whew, this is a weird movie.

LEWINSKY: In fact, to tell you the truth, I don't think Andy even believes me.

TRIPP: Well, it is – it is mind-boggling.


... LEWINSKY: What are you wearing to the fundraiser?

TRIPP: Uhm, I don't know yet, actually. ... Try to talk to Betty, though.

LEWINSKY: No, I will. I mean, I – I – the two things I want to say to her are this. One, I'm going to say, "Look, I know that he'll be alone tonight. Could you please ask him to call him sometime early on because I'm very nervous about the meeting tomorrow."

And then I'm gonna say, "Look, I really need your advice. The secretary's telling me I'm supposed to meet him in the room, and I'm really uncomfortable with that."

TRIPP: He's not a secretary.

LEWINSKY: Oh yeah, I know. Ambassador. I keep forgetting that.

... TRIPP: Um, okay. So you're going to mention that to Betty.


TRIPP: Good.

LEWINSKY: So I'm going to say to her, you know, 'What should I do?'

TRIPP: Yeah, good idea. She'll probably say, 'Oh, that's fine, that's fine.'

And then I think you need to say, if you want to, I think you should say, 'Well, I really need to speak to the big creep before' –

LEWINSKY: Look, all I can do with Betty is I can ask her to pass it along, and she's – she's gonna do what she's gonna do, whether I say it's important or not important.

I would imagine – but I could be wrong because I've been wrong before, I would imagine that he would call me tomorrow night.

LEWINSKY: ... You know? It's been a week since I talked to him.

TRIPP: He still needs reminders, Monica. He's just that way.

LEWINSKY: ... But I sent the present. ... I mean, I'm gonna tell her – I'm not saying I'm not gonna tell her, but what I'm not gonna do is bug her all day ... if she told him or not.

TRIPP: ... When you talk to Richardson ... and he asks you what you want to do ... I guess you have to treat this as though you want to go.

LEWINSKY: ... I'm not going to talk about salary. I'm going to tell the creep to make, you know –

TRIPP: Oh, you don't talk – you don't need to talk about salary to him.

LEWINSKY: OK, 'cause the creep told me – you know, the big creep gave me like – he's such a (REDACTED), you know?


LEWINSKY: Because he's like, "Well, you know, see what you can get out of him. Try and get the best deal you can out of him, the best salary, the best job, the best da, da, da, da.

I'm kind of like, "I'm supposed to do this?" So –

TRIPP: Oh, I don't think so. You know what? I would let Podesta handle that. ... I think – I think it's just not suitable for you to get into that with him.

LEWINSKY: Right. ... But I think – I mean, they'll just stick me in the press office. They have a press operation there.

TRIPP: Right, they do. They have a foreign press officer there. Uhm – well, I think you have to use the word "substantive" a lot. You – you know. ... You'd prefer not to be someone's assistant. ...

LEWINSKY: ... the other thing that I would be interested in, too ... would to be something where – doing some kind of liaison work with the White House, too.

TRIPP: That would perfect. ...

LEWINSKY: ... But there could be something already there, in that place, you know. Or I was thinking ... about ways of, you know, implementing more the president's initiative ...

TRIPP: It's – it's less applicable –

LEWINSKY: To the U.N.?

TRIPP: – to the U.N.

LEWINSKY: That's what I thought.

TRIPP: Yeah. There would be, yes, on occasion, but not routinely, and I think that – remember, that the United States is one member.

LEWINSKY: Right. ...

TRIPP: ... All I will say is, this is your opportunity to tell him what you want, so ... that you don't end up in the press office ... in some lowly –

LEWINSKY: ... I know. ... I think I'd feel a little better about this if there was some other – something else has materialized. And if I get to talk to him tomorrow, I'm going to make him take a pen and piece of paper and write down that I leave in two – in two weeks from today. ...

LEWINSKY: ... You know what's really weird? I keep hearing these double clicks.

TRIPP: That's my gum.


TRIPP: ... Now whose affidavit was it that said –

LEWINSKY: This was Paula Jones' affidavit.

TRIPP: And, it's already written up about? ...

... Is that accurate, you do think?

LEWINSKY: Um, I don't think so. ...

TRIPP: ... I can't believe that she would – oh, my God, this is gross. ...

...TRIPP: I mean, enough already with this. ...

LEWINSKY: ... I was thinking maybe, you know-- I don't know that she would do this. ...

TRIPP: ... He could have a medical examination ...


TRIPP: Well, maybe they measured it.

LEWINSKY: Well, they'd have to ... measure it erect. I mean, like, oh my God.

TRIPP: I wonder if she read – did Gennifer Flowers ever specify the size. ...

LEWINSKY: No. She just said.




... I just hope it goes away, because I don't want to get any more involved.


TRIPP: And I just hope – If Kathleen goes away, I assume I go away.


TRIPP: (Sigh). So that's – that's all I care about.

LEWINSKY: ... Really surprised. But – so then I talked to Betty. So then she said, well, "I didn't know" – you know, she didn't know what was going to happen.

So then I called her back and I said, "Listen," I said, "Should I – should I maybe courier over a letter? Would that be easier, you know? It's easier to hand him a piece of paper than it is to try and get the time to tell him the, you know, 20-minute story." ... So she said: "Oh, well, you know, yeah, sure. OK, fine." So I did and –

TRIPP: Today?


TRIPP: What did it say?

LEWINSKY: ... I said that you know, the fears ... that arose over the weekend came to fruition today, you know. Richardson called and offered me a position. ...

TRIPP: Did you send him the book?


TRIPP: Why not?

LEWINSKY: Because I didn't send the packet because I had – you don't understand. I was like in hysterics. I didn't have the book in my possession.

TRIPP: So your mother still dropped it off?

LEWINSKY: No, she didn't drop it off. She didn't drop it off because I met with her at the lunch –

TRIPP: I know, I understand that. But then you said you did courier something over.

LEWINSKY: Right, but not by my mom, by a courier service. ...

TRIPP: ... OK. Now, wait. So it said this situation has arisen. Then what?

LEWINSKY: ... so I said – "Look, I don't know what to do. My mom came up with a very good idea, and that" – oh, first of all, by the way – oh, I said – dropped the other bombshell. I decided to not go on this China trip. ... Because I realized – my mom came up last night, and we had a big thing, and she was absolutely right. She was like, "This is ridiculous. You're going to go away for two weeks, and this is" – you know what I mean?

TRIPP: Well, I totally agree, but I didn't know it was an option.

LEWINSKY: Well, I made it an option. Why did I make it an option? Because I told Mr. Bacon that I was looking for a job in New York, and that I – my plan had been to have something secured before the trip, but now it didn't work out that way, and, you know, blah, blah, blah.

TRIPP: OK. What did he say?

LEWINSKY: So he – it was fine. ... There's a whole another story, but I think everything's OK.

TRIPP: What do you mean? Just give me the gist.

LEWINSKY: OK, the gist – you know, he was sorry I was leaving, but he understood I wanted to go to New York, blah, blah, blah. We talked. He's going to call Howard Pastor, who, you know, works at Hill & Knowlton ... on my behalf. ... and then ... the first thing he said, you know, "If there's anything I can do to change your mind, please let me know."

And you know, I don't know. Maybe that's a stock answer you give to anybody.

TRIPP: No, it's not, unh-uh.

LEWINSKY: But – so --so we finished our conversation, and then he wanted to do some other things, and I had to get him the address for the thing.

And then I thought – and I went in there and I said, "You know, you said if there was anything I could, you know, you could do to change my mind, and there isn't really," I said. "But I would be remiss if I didn't let you know that really what prompted me to move so quickly on this was the whole – you know, everything that happened with the incident with my grade increase," I said. "With Mr. (Former Deputy to Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs Clifford) Bernath." I said, "I thought he was very, very inappropriate." ...

... LEWINSKY: It's embarrassing. And he said, "Well" – he said, "Look, the important thing to remember is that, you know, I like your work and I think you've done great work for me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah," like that.

TRIPP: Good.

LEWINSKY: ... I wanted him to have resentment toward Mr. Bernath.

TRIPP: You think he did?

LEWINSKY: He might a little. He might – I don't know how guys interpret things, but he might be a little, ... "Well, gee, you know, part of the reason she's leaving is because of him" –

... I said in my note to him ... the problem is that, you know, Richardson – you know, Richardson was told that I was dying to work for him.

TRIPP: I know.

LEWINSKY: You know? So he's offered me this position, you know, and I said I have no idea how I'm supposed to diplomatically, say, you know, you're my backup, can I let you know? (Laughter)

TRIPP: Mm-hmm.

LEWINSKY: ... Then I said about Vernon, I said, you know, you mentioned last week about setting up a meeting between me and – between Vernon and myself. You know, do you think you could do that sometime soon? I know you're busy, blah, blah, blah.

... And then I said to him, ... I'm trying to stay calm and not freak out and keep – and I keep repeating my mantra to myself. It was – I mean, I tried to make the note light.

... TRIPP: (Sigh) So where was it left with Betty – who's contacting Vernon until he tells her to, and that's very understandable?

LEWINSKY: It's not her position to go calling his friend to say can you do this for him?

TRIPP: Oh, I know.

LEWINSKY: So I – you know, I think he's had – he's had a very crazy – he's got a crazy week in general. First of all, he's lost his voice and he's very sick. ... Second of all, you know, he's got this Fast Track legislation. Now we have all this (delete) with Iraq.

TRIPP: I know.

LEWINSKY: ... I mean, it was really kind of – not hurtful, but I was a little like – yeah, I guess it was hurtful that he didn't call, you know.

TRIPP: I know.

LEWINSKY: I mean, he knew how nervous I was.

TRIPP: (sigh) Well, the good thing is, you have one solid option now.

LEWINSKY: Yeah, except that my mom refuses to let me take it.

TRIPP: What do you mean?

LEWINSKY: Because she absolutely refuses for me to work at the U.N.

... TRIPP: Tell me why.

LEWINSKY: Because she went there, and she hates the building. She says it's going to be just like the Pentagon, and she just – (Redacted).

TRIPP: Really? Did she – now, did she just look in the lobby or what?

LEWINSKY: I don't know what she did. I don't know. Now, one of the other options – but I really don't want to think about doing that – is he also – he has a Washington office and he did also mention today possibly something in the Washington office. ... I'm just saying I could do that for six months while we work on trying to find another job. But what my mom said is – you know, she's afraid that the creep's attitude will – the attitude will sort of be like –

TRIPP: Oh, yeah.

LEWINSKY: "Well, we did this already for you."

TRIPP: Right. ...

... TRIPP: This sounds really positive on the other thing, Monica.

LEWINSKY: It doesn't. What are you talking about?

TRIPP: Yes, it does, because that means –

LEWINSKY: To the contrary.

TRIPP: No. 1, you have a solid option.

LEWINSKY: I don't. My mom – you don't understand. My mom won't let me take that job.

TRIPP: I don't understand that.

LEWINSKY: Because she went there and she was like, "Monica, it'll be like being at the Pentagon in New York. It's gonna be the same thing." And even though I liked Richardson and I like the people, it's true, I'm not interested in it.

... TRIPP: Well, ... here's what I would say about the U.N. I agree with your mother to an extent, but I don't know enough about it to be that vocal about it. But I think you owe it to yourself to go visit.


TRIPP: Just see what vibes you get. You're very good that way. ...

LEWINSKY: ... I mean, this is supposed to be, as he said, my backup – ... And ... it just is an upsetting, uncomfortable, unsettling feeling when your backup has turned into your only option. ...

... LEWINSKY: ... I came very close to writing a letter, but I figured that's not the kind of thing that you write, you know, on paper. It's more of the thing you say in person, you know, along the lines of, you know, "Hey, the reason I'm doing this whole New York thing is because you didn't bring me back."

TRIPP: Right.

LEWINSKY: You know?

TRIPP: The gates were locked.

LEWINSKY: I know. ...

... LEWINSKY: ... And (REDACTED) leaves on Saturday, so, really, I mean, it just will make it a lot easier for him to do whatever it is he needs to do hopefully.

TRIPP: Are you going to see him?

LEWINSKY: I don't know. I'm supposed to. Maybe.

TRIPP: When are you supposed to see him, Saturday?

LEWINSKY: Yeah, possibly.

TRIPP: I'd wait 'til she's out of town.

LEWINSKY: Well, that's what I was thinking, too, but I don't know. That kind of – (tape skip). Either – well, he'd said Saturday, and then, you know – so I'm thinking, OK, well, maybe Sunday. I wouldn't mind next Saturday, except a little bit 'cause it would be the two-year anniversary, and it's not. You know what I mean?


LEWINSKY: I'm not like not his girlfriend anymore. But – I don't know.

TRIPP: Oh, that's so romantic, though.

LEWINSKY: I know. But then I – but then I kind of feel like –

TRIPP: Is she gone for an extended period?

LEWINSKY: I think she's gone for ten days.

TRIPP: Oh, you're kidding.


TRIPP: Where is she going?

LEWINSKY: She's going to Kazikstan and Bekistan (sic) and –

TRIPP: Alone?

LEWINSKY: Without him.


LEWINSKY: So she's gone for like ten days. So she'll be gone that day, too.

TRIPP: Mm-hmm.

LEWINSKY: You know? But I just – I just kind of feel like – OK, if I can do it this weekend, is it worth – is it worth the risk?

TRIPP: Of not doing it?


TRIPP: Yeah, I would take whatever they can arrange.

LEWINSKY: ... I asked him in the letter to call me, so – you know, I said, "I know it's hard for you to call me from home, so can you please try" ...

... LEWINSKY: Is there something you're not telling me?

TRIPP: No, like what?

LEWINSKY: I don't know.

TRIPP: No, you idiot. ...

LEWINSKY: I got the tie – the creep a tie.

TRIPP: Oh, please.

LEWINSKY: I know. It was 20 bucks at Marshalls.

TRIPP: Oh, good. Who makes it?

LEWINSKY: Calvin Klein. ... Yeah. It's gorgeous.

TRIPP: Yeah, Marshalls generally – every now and then you can hit.

LEWINSKY: I know. It's really nice. It's real different than all the other ones. But – so I put a really funny note with it. I'm going to send it with the book.

TRIPP: Yeah. I think you should send the book, though.

LEWINSKY: I know. I'm going to. And I put stickies in the forward where it – I mean, it so clearly shows what kind of book it's not. You know what I mean? ... And then I marked a section in the – in the chapter that talks about him being a – you know, whatever it is, "Domingo as Don Juan" ... is what it's called, the chapter. ... And then the other thing I marked was – I was – I had told him about this one thing. I said, "Oh, you know," I said, "actually it was really good. You know, she talked about – you know with some of her experiences, she shed some light on things – a lot of things that people don't know about him that are really wonderful." ... And so I marked that other part, you know. ... And then I'll put the New York Times review in there.

TRIPP: How did they review it?

LEWINSKY: ... I'd say it was lukewarm.

TRIPP: Well, that's better than nothing.

LEWINSKY: Right, and it's also – you know, it's the fact that it's The New York Times. ... You know? ... So there's that. But with the tie I wrote such a funny card, Linda.

TRIPP: (laughter)

LEWINSKY: It's really a nice tie, and I – you know, at first I said, "Oh, you know," I said, "it'll look good with either a taupe or navy suit and a white or – white, blue shirt, whatever you want. ... And, you know, I'm like "That is if you like it" And I'm like, "And just think now you can pay homage to me if you want by having a work week in which you wear one of my ties every day." (laughter)

TRIPP: (laughter) 'Cause this will be the fifth one, right?

LEWINSKY: (laughter) Now there are five. It's the fifth one.

TRIPP: ... You'll have to give him one for the weekend days, too.


TRIPP: Oh, yeah, you will.

LEWINSKY: No. I think this is it. That's what I want. You know, that's my fantasy, is to have him wear one of my ties every day.

TRIPP: You are a nut. Was that one of your ties here, with the blue shirt?


TRIPP: Oh. Which tie?

LEWINSKY: The black one, the one that was in your house.

TRIPP: You're kidding. I didn't tell that, I couldn't tell that.


TRIPP: I wouldn't have worn that with a blue shirt.

LEWINSKY: It looked nice with a blue shirt, I thought.

TRIPP: What color was his suit today.

LEWINSKY: I think it was tan. Was it tan or –


TRIPP: ... I mean, it's so – God. Well, that's got to be extremely embarrassing to him. ... I mean, that whole front page thing was just ridiculous, but – but I think it will work to his advantage, because I think people just don't want to read that in the paper. ... Oh, and then they had a picture of Paula Jones and her sister.

LEWINSKY: Oy, really? ... I didn't see that.

TRIPP: ... Amazing. Well, I believe she saw something, but I don't believe – I think this whole sensational mess she's gotten herself into was the product of others making her exploit what I think was – started out to be a consensual thing. ... And something went wrong. ...

LEWINSKY: I don't know. ... I have to tell you, I was very surprised to hear that they were going forward with trying to subpoena Kathleen Willey.

TRIPP: Well, that's never been a dead issue.

LEWINSKY: No, but just – I thought – didn't you think, and I know you had said this, too, was that with her best friend coming out and saying she lied?

TRIPP: ... All they're doing is seeing what she said at the time. That's all they want to know, you know. Whether she lied, whether she didn't, they want to know what she said at the time.


TRIPP: And Kirby (Behre, Linda Tripp's former attorney) hasn't called me back yet. ... His intention was to just call them and say we're not available, we're not coming. ... But I did want to get across – I left a message on his voice mail.

LEWINSKY: I mean, the only thing I'm thinking is what if for some weird reason – you know, and like you still can choose to not do it, right? But I'm just thinking what if for some weird reason Bennett thinks there's something to gain from you going there to say it? Which I doubt. Do you know what I mean? ... And what if you're acting on what you think is what they want?

TRIPP: Well, maybe you should mention it to Betty.

LEWINSKY: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how involved in this thing she is. You know?

TRIPP: Well, you've talked to her about it before.

LEWINSKY: Yeah, I can.

TRIPP: Well, I think all you have to say is, "My attorney was contacted by the new" –


TRIPP: Would she – do you think she would relay this to him, though? This is not just for her satisfaction.

LEWINSKY: No. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what she would do –

TRIPP: Well, then don't. ...

This isn't just for Betty's knowledge. I mean, that – that solves nothing.

LEWINSKY: I mean, to me, the clearest, most direct way to find out, you know, what they want is for Kirby to talk to Bennett or Mitch, you know. I think I only just –

TRIPP: He may have done that, too. I mean, that's usually what he does. So – I mean, he has no problem talking to them. ...

I just don't want it to cause another – I don't want my name to be brought up again in the Oval Office. I just don't. It's not appropriate. I have nothing to do with this. I'm not a player. She is a player. Face it. ...

She created the whole thing. ...

LEWINSKY: I still think – I mean, like it probably – probably something did happen. I just still think it's weird that he's let – I guess – but you said it wasn't as disheveled as they made it seem. That's what I forgot.

TRIPP: No, I mean, she was red in the face, you know, the – I don't want to get into it all. I mean, I believed her at the time. But, remember, I saw a flirtation going on for months. ...

LEWINSKY: Oh, boy. I wish this whole thing would go away. (Sighing.) I think part of the reason he went forward with this whole thing was because Kathleen was essentially a dead issue.

TRIPP: Went forward with whole thing?

LEWINSKY: I think, you know, it was kind of that they were trying to settle but, you know what (REDACTED) it didn't work, you know.

TRIPP: Well, I think – don't you think there's still a chance for settlement?

LEWINSKY: No. And they haven't been talking either. There hasn't been any talk of settlement with the new lawyers.

TRIPP: In the press.

LEWINSKY: Well, what they've done in the past is they've spoken – what – you know, what they said towards – you know, what they were saying for a while was they're negotiating, but what they're talking about is not being disclosed.

TRIPP: Well, he's never talked to you about this, right?


TRIPP: Only about Kathleen.


TRIPP: Hmpf. And he says it didn't happen.

LEWINSKY: Correct.

TRIPP: Well, that worries me a little bit because assuming it did happen, that would mean he was lying to you.

LEWINSKY: Hmpf. He's lied to me before. ...

You know. I mean, I don't – I – you know, I can't sit here and say, `Oh, he lied to me.' I lied to him, too.

TRIPP: You don't lie to him.

LEWINSKY: Oh, really? "Does she know about us. No, she doesn't know."

TRIPP: Oh, about me?

LEWINSKY: Yeah, that's a lie. (Laughter.)

TRIPP: Yeah, that's a lie.

LEWINSKY: That's a flat-out lie, you know. ...

TRIPP: Oh, you know what I meant to say to you? ...

I know this abridged version that you're giving people now?


TRIPP: That worries me. Because, look. (Sighing). Why do we have to use any version?

LEWINSKY: Well, I mean, I'm not giving it to people. I don't – I don't think it's like I'm talking about it freely.

TRIPP: Well, you told this Judy person in New York.

LEWINSKY: No, I – that's not Judy, this was the counselor lady. ... She's bound by the law. ...

TRIPP: She's an employment counselor?


TRIPP: So what you told her essentially was there had been rumors –


TRIPP: – and you had to leave?


TRIPP: Do you think in speaking to her that she saw between – between the lines?


TRIPP: Oh, good. Oh.

LEWINSKY: And to my dad, what I thought about was that I have to – that by being able to – he will be impressed with the – I think he'll be mad, too, but he'll be kind of impressed with the – just with the notion that the creep talked to his daughter – do you know what I mean?

TRIPP: How are you gonna present this?

... LEWINSKY: ... I said, "And you'll call me when you get back?" he goes, "I'll call you and give you a report." Hmpf.

TRIPP: Well, he probably will. ...

... LEWINSKY: He yelled at me because ... the way I was acting was like he was not on my team and not on my side, you know. I don't know why I should have thought that. ...

... TRIPP: Yeah. Because it's been a year and a half and you were supposed to be back there ...

LEWINSKY: A year ago. ... Linda, he got so mad at me, he must have been purple.

TRIPP: Uh – what precisely (REDACTED) him off?

LEWINSKY: ... I was a cannon ready to shoot. ...

... LEWINSKY: ... what started it was when I said ... "Well, Betty said you could come any time in the night." ...

... TRIPP: Oh, yeah. Well, this was at three in the morning.

LEWINSKY: Right. And he said, "Well, it's too late. It'll be all over." And I said, "Well, I want to discuss this with you in person," you know. And he goes, "No, no, no, no. Well, I'm calling you. You just demand to see me." And that's when he started, and then I started yelling."

TRIPP: (Laughter.)

LEWINSKY: And then he started yelling, and I yelled more, and he yelled more, and then he finally –

TRIPP: Did he ever say, "Do you know who you're talking to?"


TRIPP: (Laughter.)

LEWINSKY: And then – and then I was crying.

TRIPP: Oh, my God.

LEWINSKY: You know, and then he was yelling at me. ... He scared me so much that I was like, okay, okay. TRIPP: I'm really hoping none of his little ushers were outside the door.

LEWINSKY: Well, it was one of those quiet yelling? You know, like he was trying to keep his voice down.

TRIPP: Yeah. (Laughter.) (REDACTED.)

LEWINSKY: "I have an empty life except for my work, and it's a (REDACTED) obsession."

TRIPP: He said that?

LEWINSKY: Right. And then I said, ... "Well, don't you get any warmth and da da da from your wife?"

TRIPP: You didn't.

LEWINSKY: I did. He said, "Of course I do."

TRIPP: Yeah. What he really told you was the truth before that, Monica. "I have an empty life?"

LEWINSKY: But, Linda, that's (REDACTED). What about his daughter and all the things he does and, you know ...

... TRIPP: No. No. What he's saying is his compulsion for female intimacy is the void, that's the void. And whatever motivates him to behave the way he does, and then obviously he has to pull back and say, "I can't do this," is because there's a void.

And so him – for him to say "I have an empty life," you don't understand, Monica. By now, Air Force One, all the trips, all that's pretty routine. ...

... LEWINSKY: I don't know. I think – I think he likes to feel sorry for himself, and I think he ... not necessarily consciously, but unconsciously, it was like this is the thing to say to drive home the point.

TRIPP: No, no. No, you're wrong. I think he slipped, and I think also – if he were a completely fulfilled man, you wouldn't exist in his life.

LEWINSKY: Yeah. ...

TRIPP: So you better understand that. ...

LEWINSKY: But there have been millions of women. ...

... TRIPP: ... Did Betty receive the package?


TRIPP: So did you mention to her what to do with it or –



LEWINSKY: I think she's annoyed with me.


LEWINSKY: I don't know. I think everything that happened last week.

TRIPP: What was last week?

LEWINSKY: "I don't want to talk to you again ..."

TRIPP: Oh, that – that conversation?

LEWINSKY: Yeah, just everything, I think. I don't know. (Tape skip). I'm sure she'll be the happiest to see the situation over, you know.

TRIPP: Well, I don't think she would be annoyed, though. I mean, she – the one thing she has to understand –


TRIPP: – unless she's dumber than dog dirt, is how difficult this has been for you.

LEWINSKY: I don't think she thinks that. ...

... LEWINSKY: You know, sometimes my opinion of her wanders from being, you know, a total idiot –


LEWINSKY: – to being – you know, to just being kind of sneaky.

TRIPP: What – to kind of being what?

LEWINSKY: Just kind of being sneaky, you know, playing dumb for ...

TRIPP: ... I find her to be, for the most part, pretty disingenuous.

LEWINSKY: Mm-hmm. ...

... TRIPP: And you know, I have no idea how much he's told her. (Sigh.) So it must be somewhat uncomfortable.

LEWINSKY: Well, I'm sure he tells her nothing, you know. I don't know. It's weird. (Sigh.) ...

... LEWINSKY: ... I just realized – what am I gonna do if he (REDACTED) me over again?


LEWINSKY: The creep. Then I have no – because the reason I was gonna tell him a story was because it was one of those – you know, he didn't help me, so I have no choice.

... TRIPP ... Did Betty receive the package?

LEWINSKY: Yes. ...

... TRIPP ... The one thing she has to understand ... is how difficult this has been for you.

LEWINSKY: I don't think she thinks that. ... I think in her book, I've just been totally impatient. ...

... TRIPP: Well, she realizes you were forced to leave there because of him, right?

LEWINSKY: Yeah, but, you know –

TRIPP: So she should – she should have some level of understanding here.

LEWINSKY: You know, sometimes my opinion of her wanders from being, you know, a total idiot –


LEWINSKY: – to being – you know, to just being kind of sneaky. ...

... TRIPP: And I find her to be, for the most part, pretty disingenuous.


TRIPP: However, she has been your only link ... She has tried, I think, to the best of her desires or abilities, to cope with this. ...

... LEWINSKY: Well, I'm sure he tells her nothing. ...

... TRIPP ... I just want you to be sure that you make the right choice when you talk to him, that's all. ...

... TRIPP: A part of me thinks your first idea was not a bad one.

LEWINSKY: About what? ...

... TRIPP: At one point you said you were gonna tell him the truth.

LEWINSKY: Oh, I – nah, I don't want to. ...

TRIPP: You explained to her how emotionally distraught you are?

LEWINSKY: I don't know.

TRIPP: Were you crying?

LEWINSKY: I was upset. I'm just – not like I am now. (Crying).

TRIPP: Sigh.

LEWINSKY: Linda, I can't take it anymore.

TRIPP: I know. I know.

LEWINSKY: (Crying) It's just too – it's too much for one person. (Crying).

TRIPP: Oh, it is too much for one person. ...

... LEWINSKY: I go to work every day (crying) and I just (crying), I'm trying to keep it together and I just can't.

TRIPP: You've been a trouper through this, Monica, and you've been through –

LEWINSKY: (Crying)

TRIPP: It just seems as though because the frigging buffer zone, you can never communicate directly with him until he chooses to.

LEWINSKY: (Crying)

TRIPP: So when there's a crisis like this UN problem, he's, he's fully unaware, I'm sure. He knows – he probably knows that Richardson called you and that there's something going on, but he doesn't know the state you're in because of that.

LEWINSKY: (Crying) ... I'm gonna throw up.

TRIPP: No, don't throw up. ...

... TRIPP: I almost hate for you to shoot yourself in the foot when it may be your only chance –


TRIPP: – of a – (sigh) a good job. Oh, good, I shouldn't say good, a job that pays $65,000 in New York.

LEWINSKY: Maybe I don't know.

TRIPP: Well.

LEWINSKY: But wait a minute. Podesta doesn't even know how much money I want to make, you know. And, that's the problem.

TRIPP: It's too much right now.

LEWINSKY: I – Linda – I almost called you mom.

... TRIPP: But did he (REDACTED) your life up for the time being? Yes. (sigh) It gives me an Excedrin headache.

LEWINSKY: (sigh)

TRIPP: I have to say this because I've thought about it a lot recently. If he for one considered someone doing this to his daughter--

LEWINSKY: I – I thought the same thing. You know? What would you tell your daughter to do?

TRIPP: Yeah exactly. In fact, that's a question you might want to ask him. I mean, he would die rather than let this happen to Chelsea, but you're supposed to be a stoic soldier. ... That's how he compartmentalizes. He does not see you as in that league. He sees you as a-- as a-- woman, young, but a woman.

LEWINSKY: "Don't be mad"?

TRIPP: Yeah. Hah.


TRIPP: Oh, Monica, Monica, Monica, I know you can't see it now but I promise you a year from now when you look back on this, you will have a much, much healthier perspective and you will be so glad you got the (REDACTED) outta here.

LEWINSKY: I know that.

... LEWINSKY: I miss him. You'll get mad at me. You know what I said at the end?

TRIPP: What?

LEWINSKY: The worst I could say.

TRIPP: Oh, you want – you didn't say, "What are you wearing?"

LEWINSKY: No. I was even worse than that. But then what's even worse, worse, worse than what I said was I was just like – I don't know how – you'll die. You will die. You're gonna smack me.

TRIPP: Probably, Monica.

LEWINSKY: What do you think I said.

TRIPP: God only knows.

LEWINSKY: What's the worst thing I could say?

TRIPP: "Do you love me?"


TRIPP: "I love you."


TRIPP: You didn't.

LEWINSKY: I did. We're getting off, and I'm like, all right, "I love you, butthead." I called him butthead.

TRIPP: You didn't.


TRIPP: And what'd he say?

LEWINSKY: Just nothing. He just kind of hung up. Or I hung up. I was like, oh, my God, what the hell just came out of my mouth?

TRIPP: Butthead.

LEWINSKY: Butthead.


LEWINSKY: Because I realized what I had said and I didn't – I was like, oh, I didn't want to say handsome and be so mushy, so I made it kind of joking.

TRIPP: (Sigh.) (Laughter.)

LEWINSKY: You know?

TRIPP: Well, that could be kind of like, "loveya," you know. Like a – you know, (REDACTED) "love ya, mean it."


TRIPP: You know, that's no big deal. That's okay. Butthead, though. Hmmm.

LEWINSKY: I know. He probably hung up and was like butthead?

TRIPP: (Laughter)

LEWINSKY: "I didn't hear her."

TRIPP: (Laughter) Oh, my God. Well, hmmm, the one thing I'm sure he's aware of is that you don't think of him as who he is. I think that has come across loud and clear all – the entire time. So I don't think he'd be so appalled.

LEWINSKY: Oh, yeah. 'Cause he said to me – oh, yeah, and then he said to me at one point, you know, "I want you" – it's like, you know, "I want you to go there and be nice and be interested in him and – you know, because even if you don't work there, it's good, you know, if you guys are friends and stuff."

And I'm like, "Well, I don't really think he was gonna want to be friends with a 24-year-old."

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: You know? And I don't. I mean, it's like –

TRIPP: He doesn't mean that. He means this is a good person for you to know.


TRIPP: That's what he's telling you.


TRIPP: And essentially what he's telling you is, this is an awesome opportunity for you to network.

... TRIPP: ... So there is some goodness there, Monica. He's a (expletive) at times, and I think he's a compulsive sexomaniac, and I think he can't control himself, and I think a lot of things.

LEWINSKY: Well, he's done a damn good job of controlling himself around me.

... LEWINSKY: ... I have decided I am gonna make him do this and, you know what? I don't (REDACTED) give a (REDACTED). He got together with (REDACTED) all the time on their overseas trips, and I'm gonna make him let me meet him on one of his (REDACTED) domestic trips and spend three hours with me in his (REDACTED) hotel room, and I don't care.

TRIPP: (Laughter.)

... LEWINSKY: ... I deserve just as much as everybody else 'cause I got – sure got the (REDACTED) deal.

... TRIPP: How the hell are you going to go on a domestic trip? ... How are you gonna get into his room?

LEWINSKY: Well, he's just gonna have to make it happen. ...

... LEWINSKY: I go into the back and I like get plonked down into the back, into the study, for probably 20 minutes, a half an hour. So (yawning) finally the creep walked out and then –

TRIPP: Came in?

LEWINSKY: Came in. Finally. And he had like one minute.

TRIPP: What was happening then?

LEWINSKY: Well, see, he had a – a-- president – oh, no. Was he president? Whatshisname, the Mexico guy, Zedillo.


LEWINSKY: Waiting for him.

TRIPP: You're kidding.


TRIPP: So how was it?

LEWINSKY: It was – I mean, it was – it was so nothing that you can't even say – can't even grade it. You know, I mean –

TRIPP: 'Cause it was so quick.

... TRIPP: At least you got in, Monica.

LEWINSKY: ... I am like so grateful for that. You have no idea. ... Oh, my God, Linda, he looked so (REDACTED) gorgeous.


LEWINSKY: I don't know. He just looked so gorgeous.

... LEWINSKY: ... So then I kept trying to open the drawers, and they wouldn't open.

TRIPP: Jesus. Alarms probably went off.


TRIPP: Tried to open the ... drawers. You are a nut.

LEWINSKY: I'm just nosy. ...

TRIPP: So that's all you discovered in the study, huh?

LEWINSKY: Well, I looked at the CDs, and I looked at all the books. He – it's really weird. Like, he has these CDs that are really weird that he has them in the office. They're not CDs he's – like Sax for Lovers and stuff. ...

TRIPP: Oh, I'm sure he gets all sorts of saxophone ones. ...

LEWINSKY: It's so funny to me that he has Vox there. It's so weird.

TRIPP: Well, that he wouldn't take home, would he?

LEWINSKY: ... I should mark – put a marker or something in where the good part is. He probably hasn't even gotten there yet.

TRIPP: Well, he'll find it eventually, if he hasn't read it yet. I'm sure it will ring true to him.

LEWINSKY: Yeah. I mean, so I felt good, you know. That I felt like, OK, they're – you know, there are like little reminders of me there. ...

... TRIPP: He must feel as though everybody potentially can turn. Do you know what I mean?

LEWINSKY: But that's his own fault.


LEWINSKY: Because if you (REDACTED) people over, they're going to turn around and (REDACTED) you.

TRIPP: You didn't, and you wouldn't.

LEWINSKY: No, I wouldn't. But most people would, you know. ...

TRIPP: Well, you have every reason to be mad.

LEWINSKY: I don't know – but then – but a lot of it, though, too, is that it's like, OK, this happens in everyday life. People stop liking each other, you know. Women every day – I'm sure every minute of every day somebody is getting dumped. ...

So he just stopped liking me. Well, part of the problem is that instead of just saying "I don't like you anymore" he pulled all this other (stuff). So it's now become, you know, my obsession to prove him wrong, you know. ...

'Cause, really, he's not trying to be good, and he just doesn't like me.

TRIPP: I know.

LEWINSKY: So he should just say that. And – because, of course, I don't know, somehow that'll make me feel better – pff.

TRIPP: Oh. Except that I can tell you this. I don't have a firm feeling either way on that subject. ...

I don't have a feeling either way that he's full of (REDACTED)

LEWINSKY: I don't believe –

TRIPP: – and he was conning you.

LEWINSKY: – a single word of what he said. I don't believe for one minute that he is being good.

TRIPP: You really don't.

LEWINSKY: I really don't. I really don't. I thought – I said to myself, I said, OK I will believe he's being good if he calls me, and we have phone sex, OK, like while this stress is going on ... because then I know he's trying to be as good as he can be –

TRIPP: Right.

LEWINSKY: – but he's stressed out, and he needs this. ...

And not only do we not have phone sex, I don't even (REDACTED) hear from him. And I think that's his guilt. I think he feels guilty.

TRIPP: Guilty –

LEWINSKY: Because he's with other people.

TRIPP: Oh, you –

LEWINSKY: So, what, he's going to call me, and maybe he's afraid I'm going to hear in his voice? I don't know.

TRIPP: (sighing) Oh, God. ...

LEWINSKY: But the bottom line truth is, is that he can see me any night of this week. Just like when he wanted to see me, and I got my ass over there at (REDACTED).

TRIPP: Oh, yeah. That was about me.


TRIPP: Yeah, that's lovely. Well, that's just 'cause he was (REDACTED) scared.

LEWINSKY: Well, but do you see what I mean? So it's not like it's not possible.

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: It's doable.

TRIPP: Yeah, it's doable. ...

You know, I tried to figure out whether I believed your version of what that one night (sic), whatever night that was – the Eleanor Mondale thing.

LEWINSKY: Oh, no. You know what? Maybe or maybe not. I find it a little too coincidental. But if she's in a new relationship, that just seems really bizarre to me.

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: She's in the new relationship. Maybe she's not sleeping with him yet. Anyway, there's the excitement. It's the president.

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: You know? If he begged her. ...

TRIPP: ... Well, I believe he really does care about you down deep. Because I don't think it would have taken – I don't think this entire fiasco would have gone on as long as did if he didn't. ...

You weren't one of his disposables. And I think the ludicrous aspect of it got to him, like "Holy (REDACTED) she might – she could be my daughter. I would be (REDACTED) fried. Even I see" – he would be saying to himself "Even I can see that much."

LEWINSKY: I hate him.

TRIPP: No, you don't.


TRIPP: You hate his behavior at times. ...

Lewinsky talks about the men with whom she has had sexual intercourse:

TRIPP: Well, I guess you can count the big creep in a sort of half-assed way.

LEWINSKY: Not at all. I never even came close to sleeping with him.

TRIPP: Why, because you were standing up?

LEWINSKY: We didn't have sex, Linda. Not – we didn't have sex.

TRIPP: Well, what do you call it?

LEWINSKY: We fooled around.


LEWINSKY: Not sex.

TRIPP: Oh, I don't know. I think if you go to – if you go to orgasm, that's having sex.

LEWINSKY: No, it's not.

TRIPP: Yes it is.

LEWINSKY: No it's not. It's –

TRIPP: It's not having –

LEWINSKY: Having sex is having intercourse.

TRIPP: Oh, you've been around him too long. That's his –


TRIPP: – rationale.

LEWINSKY: That's – well, that's my – then I've had sex with a lot more people.

TRIPP: Oh? (Laughing).

LEWINSKY: Having sex is having intercourse. That's how most people would –

TRIPP: Oh, so (REDACTED) jobs and all of that don't count?

LEWINSKY: They don't count.

TRIPP: Oh? Well, see? You have to inform me –

LEWINSKY: Those are guys that you just fool around with.

... TRIPP: You mean it's less personal to give a (REDACTED) job than to have intercourse?

LEWINSKY: No, not necessarily. Sometimes. It depends.

TRIPP: I guess it depends.

LEWINSKY: It really depends.

TRIPP: Yeah, I'm getting an education late in life.

LEWINSKY: ... I kind of also wanted to send the creep something. ... And he didn't give a (REDACTED), you know?

TRIPP: How do you know he didn't give a (REDACTED)?

LEWINSKY: Because he saw me. ... We fooled around.

TRIPP: But you didn't see his knee.


TRIPP: You didn't see his bad knee, did you?

LEWINSKY: No, but he was hobbling around on crutches.

... LEWINSKY: I hate him. I hate him. I hate him.

TRIPP: Well, if you really hated him, you'd pack your bags and scoot out.

LEWINSKY: I know. I wish I could. ... Now my mom won't let me.


LEWINSKY: Because she told me she doesn't want me moving to New York until I can really walk away from this. ...

Discussing the president's gift of a copy of "Leaves of Grass":

... TRIPP: Was that an old book or a new book?

LEWINSKY: No, it was a new book. But we talked about it, and we talked about why he gave it to me, and blah, blah, blah.

TRIPP: And why did he give it to you?

LEWINSKY: Because he had read it when he was my age, and –

TRIPP: Oh, that's right.

LEWINSKY: – Something like that. I don't know. So when it was –

TRIPP: That was very sweet, though.

LEWINSKY: Yeah. ...

... TRIPP: And then there's perjury. I mean, that's huge. ... I've said this to you over and over again. I don't have the protection you have. I don't have anyone looking out for me.

LEWINSKY: I don't –

TRIPP: ... You're a single girl, you're young. Putting you in a job in New York ... it's a cakewalk.

Me? I've got a house. I've got a mortgage. I've got two kids in college. ... I've perjured myself for these people and I'm (REDACTED). ...

... TRIPP: You have the luxury of Vernon Jordan knowing the truth. ...

LEWINSKY: What truth?

... TRIPP: Look, he knows that you are putting ... everything on the line and lying under oath.

... LEWINSKY: So what is it – so what is it he's going to protect me from? Perjuring myself so I go to jail? ...

TRIPP: No, you're not hearing what I'm saying. ... He knows what you have done. And so, you're protected because they're never going to (REDACTED) you over.

LEWINSKY: Hah. They already (REDACTED) me over. ...

... LEWINSKY: I was going to tell my dad because my mom had this really good idea that my parents should come sit in on the deposition.

TRIPP: Mm-huh.

LEWINSKY: But then the "liar" said that that's not a good idea.

... LEWINSKY: It's not because then, really, because then they'll say, "Well, what did you know? What do your parents know about all this?" And then they could subpoena my parents.

... TRIPP: Well, then you could have your father because he knows nothing –

LEWINSKY: Yeah. He'd probably say – I mean – he wouldn't say this, obviously, but it'd be like, "Well, yeah, he was like checking my daughter out. You know?"

... LEWINSKY: "He shook my hand like I was going to be his father-in-law." ...

... TRIPP: I wouldn't mind seeing him, you know, have to, have to, admit in public that he has a problem.

LEWINSKY: Oh I would. ...My God, I'd die.

TRIPP: But he has a problem, Monica, he does.

LEWINSKY: He does. And you know what?

TRIPP: He knows it.

LEWINSKY: He has a problem and we, the American people, elected him, so let him do his stupid job. You know?

TRIPP: ... I mean, you must have a sign that only men can see that says –

LEWINSKY: "Married Men Magnet."

TRIPP: Yeah. That is.

LEWINSKY: I'm a married man magnet. ...

TRIPP: You know what, Monica? It's going to work out. It's going to work out, because I have – I have true faith that you're going to go up to New York, you're going to get a wonderful job, this is all going to go away. ...

I don't want anything to surface that's going to get back to the Big One. ... For many, many reasons. Your safety, my safety, my kids' safety, everyone's safety is really the biggest thing on my mind. Trust me.

LEWINSKY: I do. ...

LEWINSKY: ... I trust you and my aunt at the same level, and my mom I just trust more. But she's my mom. ... I just wish I could understand the (REDACTED) creep. Do you know what I mean? Like –

TRIPP: Look. I don't think there is any understanding him.

LEWINSKY: What goes through his head when he's saying, you know, "She wants to come see me." I mean, the only thing I can think of, that he just doesn't want to, because it's the only thing that makes sense to me. ... I mean, I thought I was being nice. What's there to deal with, you know?

TRIPP: Oh, there's a lot to deal with, Monica. Just because you're being nice? ... I think the real issue is that you're a temptation to him, and I don't think he wants the temptation. He has decided this isn't happening.

... LEWINSKY: I sent him that card. It's like what kind of (REDACTED) moron do you have to be?

TRIPP: (Laughing)

LEWINSKY: You know what I mean?

TRIPP: Oh, I'm beginning to think he's a huge moron, but that's just my opinion.

LEWINSKY: And I'm beginning to think he's just an (REDACTED) more than a moron.

TRIPP: How about a combination, a moron and an (REDACTED)? (Sighing.) ... Well, his kid's not there, his wife's not there. ... Well, the comfort you can take from this is I'm sure he doesn't have anyone else there either, because she's not there.

LEWINSKY: Well, Nancy (Hernreich, deputy assistant to the President and Director of Oval Office Operations) might be there. ...

TRIPP: Nancy will not let anybody in that back room.


TRIPP: So that's what I'm saying. He's not seeing anybody.

LEWINSKY: Oh, well – oh, that way. ... Yeah, I was. I pretty much am begging to see him. I told him last week I wanted to see him over the weekend. ...

Start of conversations recorded while Tripp was wearing a body wire:

LEWINSKY: I don't want to talk to him – I don't want to look at him. I can't look at him on TV. I can't anything.

TRIPP: You're kidding. ...

LEWINSKY: ... He hasn't even contacted me in two months, and I was going through all of this because of him for two months. For two months. ...

... TRIPP: Are these people – are you comfortable – he – Vernon spoke to you about these people?

LEWINSKY: This was a long time ago.

TRIPP:I mean, are there –

LEWINSKY: This was a long time ago. ... I haven't spoken to him in a – but –

TRIPP: But – but they're – they're people he feels will take care of you?

LEWINSKY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. ...

... TRIPP: In other words, you're not just going to be cast adrift.

LEWINSKY: I don't think so.

TRIPP: Do you – can I ask you something?


TRIPP: Are you bound and determined to do what you plan to do?




TRIPP: You-- are you-- are you positive in your heart that you want to do that? I mean –


TRIPP: I'm only saying – I'm only saying that in case you should change your mind.

LEWINSKY: No. I – I – I first of all, for fear of my life –

TRIPP: Yeah.

LEWINSKY: – I would not. For fear of my life, I would not – I would not cross these – these people for fear of my life, number one. ....

... LEWINSKY: I could not live with myself if I caused trouble. I – that is just – that is not my nature. I am a good person. I think no matter what – no matter how he has wronged me, no matter how many girlfriends he had, no matter how many people he abused, no matter how many, it – it was my choice. ...

... LEWINSKY: I have fear about one thing, and that's you saying something. I have no fear. It is hard, it is scary. I don't like it. I don't feel comfortable (inaudible). ...

... TRIPP: I think everybody has a, an, a moral code of some sort.

LEWINSKY: We do, but to everybody it's different.

TRIPP: I mean all these years of testifying and doing this and doing that it – it would never have crossed my mind to lie under oath.

LEWINSKY: ... No, I know it's a big thing and I (sighing). You know I know that it's not a matter-- I would be indebted to you for life. I would do anything. I would write you a check for (REDACTED) ... because even though he despises me right now, I know in my inner mind I love him.

TRIPP: I know.

LEWINSKY: And just to even protect him.

TRIPP: I know that Monica, believe me. ...

... LEWINSKY: If I were you, I would say: "Well, I don't, I might have, but I don't remember." That's the phrase. That's the phrase my lawyer told me. Everything is, "I might have, but I don't remember."

"Were you ever alone with the president?"

"Um, it's possible I may have taken him a letter on the weekend, but, you know, I might have, but I don't really--" ...

... LEWINSKY: What about if I made you a promise, if I-- I promised you that if you lost your job because of this, if you lied under oath and lost your job then I would tell the creep that you lied under oath and that you knew everything. ...

TRIPP: And obviously you can't have a conversation with him (Clinton) now about me, because, obviously –

LEWINSKY: I can't even get in touch with him. ...

TRIPP: He promised you the present, Monica.

LEWINSKY: Big (REDACTED) deal. ... he also promised me a job anywhere I wanted to work. Didn't he?

TRIPP: (Laughter.)

LEWINSKY: He promised me he wouldn't dump me that day. He dumped me. He promised he'd call. He didn't call. He promised to do a lot of (REDACTED) things. ... My attitude is this: ... I am not going to sit there and pretend he is the all mighty pristine man, and he has never looked at another woman. ...

... TRIPP: Okay. So all right. Let me think. But if – getting back to my point, if I lie under oath ... he doesn't even appreciate it, because –

LEWINSKY: Yes, he will.

TRIPP: – he doesn't know it. ...

LEWINSKY: ... if somebody said to him, "Is Monica lying under oath," he would say yes. But when he on his own thinks about it, he doesn't think about it in those terms, Okay?

TRIPP: Probably.

LEWINSKY: Okay? He thinks of it as, "We're being safe. We're being smart." Okay? "We're being smart, we're being safe, it's good for everybody." ...

The truth is if I felt – and I know this is going to sound really hokey, but –

TRIPP: What?

LEWINSKY: To me a little bit of – it's for the country. Every president, every (REDACTED) president we have ever had has always had lovers because the pressure of the job is too much. Too much.

TRIPP: Mm-hmm.

LEWINSKY: Too much to always rely on your wife, with whom you have too much baggage – which you inevitably will if you got to that point. And I think it's bad for the country.

TRIPP: When – if I lie under oath, and he is even semi-aware of the Kathleen thing and – and that's – that's better. Okay? Isn't it more like someone who, who – you know how when someone does you a – you're indebted to someone? And so, in order to free yourself of feeling indebted, you turn on them? Like you – you disassociate completely because you don't want to be indebted to that person. ... Like your usefulness is done. I mean, that's a huge fear.

LEWINSKY: I think he would be too afraid to do that. But I don't know because I could be in the same boat.

TRIPP: He told Kathleen. "Deny. Deny. Deny." I can't imagine he's going to change it now.

LEWINSKY: When did he tell Kathleen this?

TRIPP: When she was afraid that Hillary would come in, and he said, "I've got that covered."


TRIPP: And she said, "What if someone has seen me?" And he said the same thing.

LEWINSKY: Yeah. But, okay? First of all, I think it's impossible to think he's going to admit to Kathleen. But let's just say he did. How – why does that change anything you say?

TRIPP: That's true, because I wasn't in the room.

LEWINSKY: You weren't in the room. You are a nonissue here.

TRIPP: Thats my point.

LEWINSKY: I said to him (Vernon Jordan), "What if someone's been tapping my phone and – that's illegal, but they fed the information to someone else? So that this someone else is going to pretend they knew and that I told them or whatever it was."

TRIPP: Right. That's close enough. And what did he say?

LEWINSKY: And he said, "Well, as long as you say it didn't happen, it didn't happen."

TRIPP: But did he address the perjury issue at all? Because that is perjury?

LEWINSKY: Okay. He – yeah. He said that – he said, "You're not gonna go to jail. You're not gonna go to jail."

TRIPP: You're not gonna go to jail, but did he ... assess what could happen? I mean, assuming – let's say worst case, they come up to me or to you and say, "You on this date and this date said something completely wrong to us. It's obviously a falsehood."

And let's just it's perjury or can be construed as perjury. Did he –

LEWINSKY: I would say it's not. What I said is true. It did not happen. She is – I did not say that. She must have misunderstood.

TRIPP: I mean, you're not hearing what I'm saying. I understand all that.


TRIPP: I – I – I've gotten that.

LEWINSKY: See, no. No. I understand what you're saying. What I'm trying to show you is that what he has showed me is that there's no way to get caught in perjury situation (sic) like this.

© Copyright 1998 The Associated Press

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