Thank you for visiting "The Navigator – Live." Today's chat ended at 3 p.m. EST.

My guest was Declan McCullagh, chief Washington correspondent for Wired News. Declan lives and works in Washington DC. He knows a lot about a lot of different things, including the interweaving of politics and the digital world, and the Year 2000 Puzzle. He wrote the Y2K entry for Microsoft's Encarta encyclopedia and he runs a responsibly minded Web site called Y2K Culture.

"The Navigator – Live" appears each Thursday from 2 p.m. to 3 p.m. Eastern time. It's a live, moderated discussion offering washingtonpost.com users the chance to talk directly to intriguing and sometimes unusual guests who are shaping the digital world. "The Navigator" appears in The Washington Post print edition every Thursday. You can read past columns by following this link.

Linton Weeks: Greetings. Welcome, Declan. Thanks for being here. Let's get right to the questions.

Linton Weeks: Declan, thanks for being here. You had to bow out last week. Where were you and what were you doing?

Declan McCullagh: The Department of Justice subpoenaed me to testify in a criminal case in Tacoma, Washington. The fellow on trial sent hundreds of essays to the cypherpunks mailing list railing against government officials and Bill Gates. The IRS and DoJ said he crossed the line from free speech to threats. This Tuesday the judge agreed and ruled he was guilty as charged.

Linton Weeks: Tell us about yourself. Where were you born? How did you end up in Washington working for Wired News?

Declan McCullagh: My family is from Ireland and my father came to the states when he was in his teens. I grew up in Pennsylvania, a terribly geekish lad, and taught myself to program an Apple II when I was around 11 years old. I've always been interested in how technology and politics mesh, and this beat is an opportunity to combine those two interests. Before coming to Wired News, I spent two years working in Time's Washington bureau, as a reporter for the web site and the magazine.

Linton Weeks: Why did you create your Web site, Y2K Culture?

Declan McCullagh: It was time to take a look at not just the technology (whether a particular mainframe in a closet somewhere will be OK or not) but the broader social and political issues swirling around Y2K. It's turned into a real pop-culture phenom – calendars, books, T-shirts, movie and TV themes – and someone has to be there to chronicle it. Besides, both the naysayers and the doomsayers take themselves much too seriously.

Linton Weeks: What internet-related legislative issues are you watching these days?

Declan McCullagh: I'm spending a lot of time writing about privacy and the Microsoft trial. And free speech. I'm continually impressed by the amount of harm well-meaning but technologically clueless legislators can do. I've also been keeping my eye on Y2K, of course.

Bethesda: Do you think law enforcement officials should have been alerted to the hate sites of the Colorado shooters?

Declan McCullagh: Good question. The problem is there are gigabytes of messages a day -- some angry, most not -- posted to discussion groups like Usenet every day. Monitoring is a real problem. Even if it's possible, I'm a little leery of reporting "hate sites" to the feds. Most people who talk tough online obviously don't go out and shoot their friends, and most of the talk (if not all) is protected by the First Amendment.

Linton Weeks: What sites do you have bookmarked?

Declan McCullagh: I spend a lot of time at wired.com. And sites like zdnn.com and news.com and antiwar.com. I've been experimenting with doing a house search online through realtor.com. Some fascinating sites I've found on chess and nuclear weapons (not what you expect):
www.princeton.edu/~jedwards/cif/intro.html and www.research.att.com/~smb/nsam-160/pal.html

Linton Weeks: What's your opinion of Internet II?

Declan McCullagh: It's an outgrowth of long-standing administration policy, but I can't help thinking that this sort of R&D can be done best by the private sector. It wasn't until the NSF officially allowed commercial traffic on the Internet that it exploded into what we have today, and I think that tax money can be better spent by US high-tech firms.

Langley, VA: Your violently partisan attacks on any type of legislation designed to guard against obscene or indecent material reaching kids on the Net are well known. This is essentially a political position.
Doesn't this interfer with the duties and responsibilities of being a fair and accurate journalist? Please be as objective as possible in your response.

Declan McCullagh: I was a plaintiff in the lawsuit against the CDA, which restricted "indecent" material online. Other journalists joined too, and I made my position clear in articles I wrote that I was an involved party. So by that measure I was a "partisan," yes. But the Supreme Court agreed with us that the law would not have worked to keep smut from kids, and it would have restricted adults from using four letter words online, so I think I was in the right there.

Bethesda: Dec, my man. What's up with the Communications Decency Act? Where does it stand?

Declan McCullagh: The Supremes drove a stiletto through the heart of the CDA two years ago. Congress tried again last fall with the Child Online Protection Act, which restricted "harmful to minors" material online. A federal judge said that, too, violated the First Amendment, and the Clinton administration is appealing.

Washington DC: What-who are cypherpunks?

Declan McCullagh: The cypherpunks graced either the first or second cover of Wired Magazine. (I believe steven levy of newsweek wrote the article) they're essentially folks who subscribe to an anarchic mailing list devoted to privacy through technology like encryption and anonymous remailers. Many (though not all) are libertarians.

Rockville: What happened in that recent incident where you were forced to testify in a trial and why did you not fight the subpoena harder?

Declan McCullagh: Time Inc's counsel represented me and I fought it as hard as we could. My attorney tells me that in a criminal case (as opposed to a civil one) journalists' protections are not what they used to be. I did my best, but the government had the better hand.

Washington, DC: So, in regards to Internet II, do you support Al Gore? And who are the enlightened politicians when it comes to online issues? Who are the cavemen?

Declan McCullagh: I'm a registered Democrat and worked on Jerry Brown's campaign in '92. That said, I don't think that Al Gore is half the Net-head that he wants to be known as. He probably wouldn't be the best choice on the issues that Silicon Valley cares about. Who are enlightened? Hmm. Sen. Leahy is pretty clueful, as is Rep. Goodlatte. But tech issues cross partisan boundaries. Rep. Barr is virulently anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-drug legalization, but one of the most vocal defenders of privacy in the House. Rep. Paul is even better.

Washington: Are hackers really a threat to national security? To personal security?

Declan McCullagh: Much of the hacker threat is overblown and comes from people's fear of technology and those who can manipulate it in near-mystical ways. Kevin Mitnick has been singled out, probably unfairly. The threat of infowar and cyberterrorism or whatnot is often (though not always) used to justify shrinking defense budgets and give bureaucrats something to do to justify their existence. What's also disturbing is that such fears can be used to restrict our freedoms, such as the right to speak privately online through encryption.

north bethesda: do you sympathathize with Bill Gates in the Microsoft trial?

Declan McCullagh: I don't sympathise with Gates. But I do think he has put on a better case than most have given him credit for. Judge Jackson just doesn't like MS very much, and the court of appeals has reversed him on evey major issue so far. He's going to have to be pretty careful from here on out. As for my thoughts on the lawsuit itself, here's on old article: http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/digital/daily/0,2822,12942,00.html

Bethesda: What do you think of the MP3 music debate?

Declan McCullagh: What worries me the most about the MP3 debate is media companies well-connected on the House and Senate judiciary committees lobbying to restrict technologies they feel threaten them. We saw this in recent IP legislation. That's disturbing: they should be competing in the free market, not trying to live in the past. As for MP3, the quality isn't there yet for real audio buffs (I pretend to be one occasionally).

Rockville, MD: Why hasn't there been more online coverage of the conflict in Kosovo?

Declan McCullagh: One big reason is that to cover that story well, it helps if you're there in person. Most online-only outlets don't have someone there on the ground: they just don't have the budget for it.

Linton Weeks: What do you think of Salon buying the Well?

Declan McCullagh: I'm going to reserve judgment. But as a reasonably longtime Well member, I'm not enthusiastic about the move. (my email address, btw, is declan@well.com). The Well's community is not the same as Salon's.

Washington: What is so fascinating about that chess site? Frames? Animated gifs? If you think this is cool, check out some of the chess applet sites that allow you to play others remotely and watch recorded famous old matches? And what does your name mean, Declan?

Declan McCullagh: Okay, okay, the chess site isn't "fascinating." I was really thinking of the other URL I mentioned, which was about the design of safety systems for nuclear weapons. It's maintained by a cryptographer at AT&T Research, who has collected a lot of obscure information into one place, and likens a lot of the design to creating good crypto.

A professor I had in college who taught Gaelic told me my name meant "Beautiful Little One." There's no accounting for parental taste!

Arlington, VA: HEy Declan, Scott Johnson here. Sorry we missed lunch. I'm hearing reasonably credible stories of major internal systems problems at DC-area banks, possibly associated with look-ahead Y2K glitches. Have you heard about this?

Declan McCullagh: Scott, you should tell us about the Y2K hearing you went to this morning that I missed! I have been more focused on the federal situation than the local-DC situation, which is probably an oversight on my part. There has been an increasing buzz that not all banks will be as prepared as they say publicly, but I haven't been able to nail anything down... (Still, I remain optimistic about the US banking system.)

Linton Weeks: All right, friends. We're halfway through the hour. Declan's shown that he can handle a wide range of topics. I'll take a sip of iced tea and you keep those questions coming.

Leesburg, Virginia: Is it true the government can track my movements through a cellphone, and what kind of privacy protections does cell phone location data have?

Declan McCullagh: Yes, your location can be tracked when you're on a cell phone. You do have *legal* protections when your cell phone conversation is sniffed over the air (remember the Florida couple that intercepted Newt, I believe?) but *technological* protections are sadly lacking. The FBI has lobbied against encryption technology being used in cell phones (or computer networks, for that matter), saying it will make their job tougher. They're probably right. But it would protect our privacy too. Here's one thing I wrote on cell phone security in TIME mag a year ago.

Arlington, VA: How private is the clickstream for a user of a mainstream ISP -AOL, Erols, etc.-? Who has access to clickstream info?

Declan McCullagh: When I open a connection from my home computer (via AT&T Worldnet) to say cnn.com, the connection is direct, or as direct as it can be on the Internet. Only networks and peering points through which my communication flows can read that information.

AOL is not precisely an ISP but an online service and so it records more info. But Erols/AT&T/Netcom generally don't retain personally identifiable information, though details should be in your contract.

Rockville, MD: I, too, have been a member of The Well for a long time. I think it'll either stay pretty much the same, or die.

Linton Weeks: Declan, a Well member is weighing in here. Any comment?

Declan McCullagh: Sure. I agree. There is a special sort of community there, and if it changes too much people will leave.

wash, dc: what stories are you working on?

Declan McCullagh: I'm always working on half-a-dozen stories, but today I wrote on the Loudoun County library filtering lawsuit. A federal judge said installing X-Stop in public libraries violated the 1A. The county decided not to appeal, largely because of the six-figure cost. It should be up at wired.com by now. Next I'm going to do one on the media coverage of the Internet and the shootings.

Colorado: I'm interested in the three encryption export cases currently pending. The 9th Circuit heard the Bernstein appeal over a year ago and hasnt ruled yet, the 6th Circuit got briefs at the beginning of last month on Junger, and Karn is having evidentiary hearings. What is your take on both the timeframe for action and the ultimate outcome on these?

Declan McCullagh: Yep. The 9th Circuit heard oral arguments in Dec 97. This may be the longest they've ever taken to decide.

Bernstein is still the furthest along, and the other two cases lost at the district court level. So I'm paying attention to that one -- it has the best chance of changing the status quo.

(Currently the White House restricts overseas shipments of encryption products. Three lawsuits challenge this on free speech grounds.)

Linton Weeks: Do you see a leveling off of Internet usage?

Declan McCullagh: In the US, it's inevitable. The biggest growth spurt may well have happened -- especially as corporations got folks online. Europe may be a year behind us. But the less-developed world is where the numbers are, keeping in mind that many people on this planet have yet to make a phone call, let alone get a laptop.

Linton Weeks: What daily reading do you do to keep up with Internet news?

Declan McCullagh: I do it almost all online. The only physical paper I subscribe to is the Washington Post. I like wired.com, news.com, slashdot.org, zdnn.com. But if you want the most interesting stuff, mailing lists are great. They're less filtered. Mine is y2kculture.com/politech/

Washington: Do you think the military should have removed its information from the Web?

Declan McCullagh: Huh? Which info? Do you mean the Y2K database the NSA said was a security risk a year ago? In that case, I think the answer's "no." (Not surprising coming from a journalist, I know.) We pay their salaries; we deserve to know what the readiness of our military will be.

Washington, D.C.: What do you think about the broadband issue? Should ATT-TCI be forced to grant access to AOL and others. Should AOL be forced to let MSN piggy back on its phone banks?

Declan McCullagh: I'm inclined to side with AT&T on that one. But part of the problem is that FCC regs are so knotty and complex that it's difficult to come up with sound decisions by following them. The best thing to do is the obvious one: Get the FCC out of it. Privatize the broadcast spectrum, and let in the winds of competition. Peter Huber has argued (I think persuasively) that getting rid of the FCC is the only way to preserve competition.

Paris, France: Hello, Declan,

My name is Pierre Bellanger and I am a french reader of your great mailing list. That is my question :Do you think there is a different economic model for the european ISP like the Freeserve success in the UK tend to show ?

Declan McCullagh: Why thanks! I'm not sure I'm the best person to answer this, but I'll try. In the US, we generally have unmetered local phone rates and less regulation of the telecom industry. That means the Internet flourishes extremely well in American soil. But I'm not sure how well it will grow in Europe.

Alexandria, Virginia: I was one of the translators for the Net version of the Big Secret, the book by Mitterand's doctor that was banned in France, then posted on the Net. I think the French government was trying to remove it from the mirror sites at the end of last year, do you know if it is still available on the Net?

Declan McCullagh: I know that someone saying they were representing the authors tried to get it taken down (I don't know if it was the government or not). There were mirror sites on the Well, for instance. I think those are gone. Maybe Usenet? Much was posted there back in early 1996.

Seattle, Washington: Would you please comment on the Carl Johnson guilty verdict?

Declan McCullagh: As I said in what I wrote when I was there last week, I do not think based on the evidence that I saw he was guilty as charged. Part of the problem is educating the judge about the nature of a mailing list and the Internet, and I'm not sure he got it. Maybe the appeals court will draw the line differently. My article: http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/19145.html

Atlanta, GA: I love reading your Politech updates every day. How many subscribers do you have, and how did you go about publicizing the list? It seems so popular that you might be tempted to accept advertising some day; would you?

Declan McCullagh: Why, thanks! I've got thousands of subscribers but I don't really publicize it much. Once in a while it gets written up or linked to. I could accept advertising, I guess, but I'm not sure if text ads on the bottom of messages would work or just look silly...

Seattle: My thinking is that true anonymity on the Net will further bring down the credibility of information found there. What's your take on this?

Declan McCullagh: We've had true anonymity on the Net since the first cypherpunk and mixmaster remailers, and it doesn't seem to have hurt much. If anything, anon posts make people look more critically at information.

Chicago, IL: Declan, Clark Staten here from ERRI in Chicago, Can you comment on a possible proposal today by Presdient Clinton to create a national "informant hotline" for students to provide information if they believe other students may undertake violent acts?

Declan McCullagh: Hi, Clark. I'm not familiar with details, but heck, that's never stopped me before! Based on what you said, it seems like a dubious proscription to me, one that's likely to give parents a false sense of security. Kinda reminds me of those spoof shirts: "DARE: I turned in my parents for smoking pot and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

Linton Weeks: What do you think of The Drudge Report?

Declan McCullagh: Well, Drudge really is an Internet bottom feeder in a lot of ways. But the libel suit was just wrong-headed and designed to shut him up. Makes me wonder whether libel law online does more harm than good.

Fairfax, Virginia: Can you give us your thoughts on the Nuremberg Files site? Do you think the posting of information about abortion doctors' addresses and so forth was illegal?

Declan McCullagh: Tough call, but I come down on the side of free speech. Let it exist. It's pretty hard to argue that text on a computer screen is incitement to violence -- heck, it's not like you're at a rally with a charismatic leader telling you to storm a building...

Baltimore, MD: OK, regarding privacy on the internet: self-regulation, government regulation, technical solutions -P3P-, or some combination?

Declan McCullagh: Too much "self-regulation" is really government saying: do this or else. It's like a mugger with a gun telling you to give over your cash. Voluntary? Nope. FCC commissioner Harold F-R has spoken about this pretty eloquently.

Seattle: Love Politech. I noticed that you recently started adding a PGP digital signature to some of your messages. Has someone been posing as you on the Net?

Declan McCullagh: Nope. I just started to use it again now that I've switched from Mac to PC. If anything, I want to get people accustomed to PGP and encryption.

Washington, DC: So, Declan. What is your personal opinion of the statements made by Sens. Bennett and Dodd about what US citizens should in preparation for Y2K? Especially in light of the fact that two major studies published in the last month or so have stated that over 60% of the Y2K problems will occur THIS year.

Declan McCullagh: Government has a tough call. (I've written about this at y2kculture.com/mccullagh/) They want people to prepare but don't want to panic anyone and start bank runs. Dodd&Bennett's statements are consistent with this.

Washington,DC: Do you think that the next Administration should have a Tech Czar following the model of Ira Magaziner? Or do you think that the overwhelming intertwining of the Net with our society makes that unnecessary?

Declan McCullagh: Much of what Ira did is now farmed out to agencies. It's become, in a word, bureaucratized. But since I think the Internet prospers best without gvt control, I'd want the next adminstration to push that idea as much as they can, whether it's one person or many.

Cambridge, MA: Do you think the mainstream media will try and create a backlash towards the 'Net because of the killer's use of the Web or is it already being done?

Declan McCullagh: They tried in a knee-jerk reflexive response a few years ago over cyberporn. Now reporters are more clueful -- you wouldn't have seen the Washington Post doing this in 1996! Still, I think there's a search for answers, explanation, and ultimately truth in the wake of any tragedy. Finger-pointing is part of this. And clueless folks like Sen. Feinstein will be introducing some more anti-free speech bills, you can be sure.

Annapolis, MD: Given the polarization of politics and the entrance of far, far right wing candidates into the P2K race, any thoughts about the future of our democracy and freedom as we have grown to know and love it? Particularly in light of the Littleton, CO tragedy?

Declan McCullagh: As Hayek said, I don't give a fig for democracy. It's freedom I'm after, and democracy is a means to that end. Singapore and Malaysia have functioning democracies, but comparatively little frreedom. As for the CO massacre, I'll risk a prediction: No lasting effect.

Linton Weeks: And that concludes another piece of performance art known as Navigator--Live. Thanks to Declan, to the folks at Washingtonpost.com and to all of you who sent in great questions. Next week my guest will be Katharine de Baun of Moms Online, a Web site for the mother in all of us.

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