The Navigator - Live T R A N S C R I P T Hosted by Linton Weeks Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, February 4, 1999

Today my guest was Hilary Rosen, president and CEO of the Recording Industry Association of America, (RIAA) a Washington, D.C., trade group representing the U.S. sound recording industry. Hilary is an outspoken opponent of censorship and a proponent of copyright protection. She'll be answering your questions about lots of music issues, including the present tenseness and the future of recording on the Internet.

"The Navigator – Live" appears each Thursday from 2 p.m. to 3 p.m. Eastern time. It's a live, moderated discussion offering washingtonpost.com users the chance to talk directly to intriguing and sometimes unusual guests who are shaping the digital world. "The Navigator" appears in The Washington Post print edition every Thursday. You can read past columns by following this link.

Linton Weeks: Hilary, can you briefly explain the purpose of the Recording Industry Association of America?

Hilary Rosen: The RIAA is a trade association comprised of the nations leading record companies. We work on issues affecting the recording and creative community including copyright protection, free speech, new technologies, gold and platinum sales awards and market research about the music industry and our consumer.

Linton Weeks: Talk a little bit about yourself. How long have you been with the RIAA? What are your other interests?

Hilary Rosen: I have been with the RIAA for 12 years and have President for two years. I love music, politics, golf, basketball and movies.

Linton Weeks: The RIAA is concerned with piracy. How widespread is the illegal manufacturing and distribution of bootlegged CDs? What is your organization doing to combat the practice?

Hilary Rosen: Piracy of physical goods is a serious problem here and abroad. We estimate worldwide loses at approximately $5 billion. We work worldwide with he US government to encourage other countries to enforce their copyright laws. Here in the US we have an anti-piracy team working all over the country with law enforcement to catch the bad guys. We have a separate team monitoring and enforcing against unauthorized works on the Internet.

Linton Weeks: Your latest crusade involves the Internet. Can you explain your concerns and the technological advances that are posing challenges to the RIAA?

Hilary Rosen: The Internet is clearly mostly about opportunities not threats. We are working with our members to create ways to bring music on-line legitimately. It is clear that fans want music on-line. the only way to ultimately stop piracy is to bring them the real thing. Right now, however, a single person, sitting in a dorm room can take a CD, upload it to a site and have it available for thousands of people instantly. ironically, that one person can have the economic damage impact that a pirate in China's Pirate CD plants can have. Our efforts have focused on developing ways for fans to enjoy access to music on-line but still allow the creators to be rewarded for their work -- that is the only way for the future .

Linton Weeks: Could the Internet destroy the music industry as we know it?

Hilary Rosen: The Internet will evolve music to another level. it certainly won't destroy the industry. Music is too important a part of people's lives and there will always be a need to develop talent and market and promote that talent.

Linton Weeks: Some musicians, including David Bowie, Pete Townsend, Dionne Warwick and the Beastie Boys, have posted free MP3 files that are there for the taking. But the RIAA has filed suit against Diamond Multimedia, makers of the Rio, a micro-player that downloads, stores and plays MP3 files. Why? Some critics think you have gone overboard and that the Rio is nothing more than a next-generation Walkman.

Hilary Rosen: The Internet will evolve music to another level. it certainly won't destroy the industry. Music is too important a part of people's lives and there will always be a need to develop talent and market and promote that talent.

Linton Weeks: Can you explain the Secure Digital Music Initiative? Is it true that you have charged some companies $50,000 for a seat on the steering committee--but waived the fee for others, such as Microsoft?

Hilary Rosen: The Secure Digital Music Initiative is an effort to together technology companies working to develop music distribution products with the record industry to create an architecture or technical standard for the security of a legitimate music market. it has very widespread support from the tech industry. Every participant, including Micorsoft and the RIAA is paying a fee to cover the operating costs of this effort.

Linton Weeks: You sent a letter to Josh Malin, a 15 year old from Long Island who had linked his Web site to MP3 sound clips, warning him of a possible prison sentence and a $250,000 fine. What was that all about?

Hilary Rosen:
Our internet enforcement team send out hundreds of letters a week to educate and inform hosts of sites or links if they house our members recordings. We have atually had a relatively light touch with our efforts only filing lawsuits in the most egregious instances. Most people are respectful of the artists rights and take the sites down.

Arlington, VA: I don't understand the RIAA's opposition to MP3. We don't outlaw cassette players just because it's possible that they MIGHT be used for illegal copying. There are lots of things in modern life that COULD be used for illegal purposes that we don't outlaw. Don't oppose new technology as its evolving and developing!

Hilary Rosen: We are not against MP3. only unauthorized mp3's. the problem with the rio was not just mp3 use but also that it didn't comply with the law for serial copying restrictions

Cambridge, MA: I've been following the development of the Secure Digital Music Initiative with interest. Will every organization that can meet the monetary requirements be permitted to join SDMI, or does the RIAA pick and choose participant companies?

Hilary Rosen: every tech company pays a fee -- no favorites

Alexandria, VA: What is your take of the battle between artist royalty organizations (ASCAP, BMI) and the hotel/restaurant industry over blanket licensing and what, if any, involvement does the RIAA have?

Hilary Rosen: we aren't involved because artists and record companies don't have that right of public performance to get paid in those circumstances. i am sympathetic with the songwriters though. the $50 bucks it costs a bar is nothing compared to how important it is to have music playing there. give the writers a break.

New York, NY: Hollywood producers were nervous in the 1980s to release their content to the rentals market and then to sell videos. Only later did they recognize this to be enormously profitable. How do you see labels not making the same mistakes or rather, learning from similar phenomena of the past?

Rob Niyogi
Perceptual Systems, President
E-Marketplaces for Music

Hilary Rosen: i hope that record companies are learning. i think that we are. there is no way to stop technology nor is there any reason to. music on-line will benefit everybody

Washington, DC: do you use the internet very much for your work?

Hilary Rosen: yes, i am on-line regularly

Montgomery Village: Do you think that downloading MP3s from the internet is any different from taping songs of the radio

Hilary Rosen: one individual taping one song doesn't seem different to you or most people, i'm sure. the concern we have is that one person can upload a music file accessible by thousands in the time it takes one person to record a song from a radio to a cassette. it is a matter of scope.

University Park, MD.: As far as the copyright problems with MP3, did not the record industry complain about copyright with the 8-track and the cassette recorder.

Hilary Rosen: thanks for reminding me about the sordid past -- i don't think the industry complained about 8 track it certainly helped neil diamond -- you might be referring to our industry's wavering support over the years for technological change. i like to think we have moved past that.

Linton Weeks: On the MP3.com Web site (http://www.mp3.com/news/158.html) there is a list of 10 Things the RIAA Should Do. The list includes: post MP3 content on the RIAA Web site, respect the artist's wishes, invite an MP3 advocate onto the SDMI steering committee. What do you think about these notions?

Hilary Rosen: i don't want to post songs on my site because i don't want to compete with the artists site. mp3.com is not a tech company -- there are tech companies on the SDMI . with respect to the artists wishes, they are referring to artists who want to break their recording contracts by making unilateral decisions about the use of the songs. i just think that is a person by person company by company decision.

overall though, mp3.com has gotten more creative and more realistic about the need to protect artists rights and creative incentive. i guess that is because, like the rest of the tech industry, they want to see a thriving on-line music business. we all need to work together to make that happen.

Cambridge, MA: It seemed unusual to me when record companies acted to prevent free release of music by the artist themselves -- the Beastie Boys and Public Enemy both ran into this situation. How can this strong stance on free release be reconciled with the RIAA pro-artist stance? Didn't these actions result in poor public relations for the RIAA?

Hilary Rosen: lots on my artist friends have talked to me about this. mostly they tell me that their contracts have already decided this issue. those that want to push the envelope will have to do so when their contracts expire i guess

New York, NY: Portals (AOL) and e-retailers (Amazon) may well become the sellers of downloadable music via labels. How do you envision the rights management between portals and labels (i.e. which portal can sell what download music at what price for what percentage commission)?

Hilary Rosen: i think we will have lots of different outlets to sell downloadable music. artists and record companies will license whoever brings in the traffic

Cambridge, MA: Is it legal or illegal for me to make a digital copy of my own CDs for private use?

Hilary Rosen: if it is on a digital audio recorder (such as a minidisc or cassette deck) than it is legal to make a copy

Linton Weeks: What was the incident with Negativland?

Hilary Rosen: Negativeland is a band that uses lots of samples in their work. over the last year we have been much more aggressive with cd plants who make pirate orders and ship them overseas. what happened was that Negativeland said that the plants were so afraid of pressing discs that had major artists work on them that they couldn't get their work manufacture red. I altered our plant guidelines to tell them to treat sampling differently. I think they have done well since then

Cambridge, MA: mp3.com reported last week that Microsoft was granted free membership into SDMI, in direct conflict with previous statements by the RIAA about a "level playing field". Is this true? If so, what is the reason for the change in policy?

Hilary Rosen: no one is getting a free ride in SDMI

Montgomery Village, MD: Why do record companies ask their artists who post mp3 files on their own official websites to remove them? (i.e Beastie Boys)

Hilary Rosen: that is really an issue between the beasties and their record company. the beasties have gotten paid a certain amount of money for capitol records to control their work. it was their choice.

Arlington, VA: Last year, I remember Congress passed the worldwide copyright treaties. Where does that stand now in the rest of the world and when will it be implemented?

Hilary Rosen: the treaties have been implemented in the U.S. now others are working around the world to pass implementing legislation in other countries

Bethesda, MD: What about people who record music videos with video recorders?

Hilary Rosen: isn't that a waste of an expensive tape?!

Cambridge, MA: What should be the music industry's relation to national technology policy? Should the RIAA be allowed to veto the introduction of new music technologies into the marketplace (for example, the Digital Compact Cassette)?

Hilary Rosen: no one should be allowed to veto new technology. but i do believe that manufacturers of equipment who depend on music and creativity for people to enjoy their products have a responsibility to think about their use. thankfully, the law is on my side on this one.

Oxon Hill, MD: I am a lyricist who possesses a multiple style of writing. I can write: Pop/R&B; Country; Folk/Alternative; Gospel/Inspirational and Hip Hop. Although I have written song for scores of people I have not yet been able to land a publishing deal. Can you help?

Linton Weeks: Hilary, here's your chance to do a little career counseling.

Hilary Rosen: first, if it is your passion, don't give up

try going to a songwriter workshop. ASCAP and BMI both located in New York city sponsor them. you can also try calling the National association of Songwriters in LA. these organizations can give you the names of publishers to send you music to directly.

Washington DC: How can you be FOR censorship of free-music on one hand and AGAINST censorship of free-language on the other?

Hilary Rosen: i love this question. censorship is about government restriction of speech. it has nothing to do with stealing an artists work and pretending that the constitution gives you a right to do so.

Washington DC: Can you explain, simply, how you think music should be distributed over the Internet?

Hilary Rosen: I believe that music will be delivered in multiple formats:
streaming like a jukebox, downloadable so you can take it to your car on a recordable CD or disc, subscription services so that an artist can send you a new song every month, etc.

there are so many possibilities. many will be tried and we'll see what the consumer likes

Washington, D.C.: While groups such as the Beastie Boys put their creative works online, how come we do not hear many artists speaking out about theft of their copyrighted works on the Internet?

Hilary Rosen: many artists have spoken out - Pearl jam, Alanis morrisette, Seal, Sheryl Crow, Madonna, lots

Alexandria, VA: What is the RIAA doing to protect copyrights on the internet, i.e. MIDI files and other live broadcasts?

Hilary Rosen: we work to protect our members and artists sound recordings. MIDI files are really the works of songwriters and music publishers. Live broadcasts must all be licensed and we do that in certain instances

Cambridge, MA: What is the strategy for the recording industry avoiding anti-trust violations during the development of SDMI?

Hilary Rosen: SDMI is an open process and any standards developed will be voluntary and open. all anti-trust safe to be sure.

Linton Weeks: Okay, gang, we're about half way through here and Hilary's still going strong. I'm going to drink a little iced tea and you all keep zapping those questions our way.

Rosslyn, VA: Hillary,

I've heard that you're married to the leader of the Human Rights Campaign. How do the politics of each organization influence each other?

Hilary Rosen: they don't

Austin, TX: Is it legal or illegal for me to make an MP3 file of a CD that I own for my own personal use?

Hilary Rosen: sorry, uploading an unauthorized file, even if it is from a CD that you bought is technically illegal.

Cambridge, MA: You refer to artists that "break their recording contracts". Do you think that historically and today,
recording contracts have been generally fair to artists? Especially session players, second-tier artists, underrepresented minorities, and so forth?

Many commentators have written scathing reviews of the racism and exploitation of underprivileged musicians by the record industry.

Hilary Rosen: wow big question. the record industry does have a bad history of exploitation. that has changed dramatically and has been different for many, many years. contracts are now two way vehicles that fairly delineate the terms and conditions for distribution. artists are always represented by their own counsel and the companies i represent do take their responsibility for fairness seriously.

Washington DC: If distribution of recorded music over the Internet is successful, what will happen to companies such as Columbia House and BMG?

Hilary Rosen: good question. both of those companies, i think want to get into distribution on-line as well.

Houston, TX: What is the best way for a retailer to strike up a deal with the labels for licensing music per download?

Hilary Rosen: call the record companies directly

washington dc: Do you enjoy your job? Isn't the stress overbearing sometimes?

Hilary Rosen: i love my job! why do something you don't love to do? life is too short

Houston, TX: If someone paid $1 for a downloaded music file, but then lost the file (their hard drive crashed), would it be okay for the RIAA and record label if they got the second download for free?

Hilary Rosen: there will be lots of different business models to choose from. and yes, they will have to accommodate the fragile state of technology, hard drives, etc. but there is no specific answer for this question yet.

Springfield, VA: "...many artists have spoken out - Pearl jam, Alanis morrisette, Seal, Sheryl Crow, Madonna, lots"

While I certainly do not condone thievery, it is sort hard to get too choked up and teary-eyed about the bootleg industry's financial impact on these multimillionaires. It reminds me of when Garth Brooks got bent out of shape about the emerging used-CD industry: He was upset that he'd get paid royalties ONLY on the first sale of a particular CD--as if he weren't rich enough already.

Linton Weeks: Not really a question, Hilary. But what do you think of the sentiment?

Hilary Rosen: you may not have "sympathy for millionaires" but the fact is if people enjoy these artists and their works and they want to get access to their works than the artists does deserve to be compensated. what is the right amount someone should be able to earn before it is ok to steal from them?

washington dc: what other issues does the RIAA wrestle with? not related to the Internet?

Hilary Rosen: at RIAA, we award Gold and Platinum Sales level for records, we conduct market research on the music business and our consumers, we lobby Congress for strong copyright protection, we fight restrictions on free speech, we have an anti-piracy team that works around the country to stop counterfeits ,... we keep busy

Rockville MD: Will CDs soon be obsolete because of minidiscs? How long do you think this might take?

Hilary Rosen: people love cd's. i don't think they will be obsolete for a very long time. i am one of those who think that we will have many different music formats simultaneously in the marketplace for the next twenty years

San Francisco, CA: Is Lycos (and other MP3 portals) liable for POINTING TO, but not actually *transferring* illegal MP3 files? They are after consumer advertising dollars, not music sales -- do you anticipate an inevitable clash?

Hilary Rosen: a law congress passed last year does make Lycos and the like liable for infringing works housed on their sites once they become aware of them

Montgomery Village, MD: What do you think the impact of the recent merger mania in the recording industry business will have on musical output. Will creativity lose out to the bottom line?

Hilary Rosen: i think everyone is concerned that there will be fewer major music outlets. but i have confidence that the companies will continue to find and develop lots of new talent. i think creativity always wins out and rises above.

Washington, DC: Former Monkee Michael Nesmith just won $47 million from PBS in a lawsuit alleging "fraud" and ASCAP and BMI just won 44% increases in royalty payments from public broadcasting -- which they said were unfairly discounted -- in a Copyright Arbritration Royalty Panel proceeding.
What is RIAA's role in relation to public broadcasting's use of recorded music at preferential rates. Will RIAA join ASCAP and BMI in seeking to obtain market rates from public broadcasting?

Hilary Rosen: artists and record companies don't have the same rights as the writers and publishers do over broadcasting, so, no we won't be next.

New York, NY: I want to pay $1 to the labels for each time one of their MP3 songs is downloaded off of my site (hypothetical). How could I (and others) pull this off with the top 5 labels?

Hilary Rosen: you'll get your chance! sit tight

Washington, DC: If a band chooses to distribute its music over the Internet for free to listeners, do you think that will help, or hurt, its chances of getting a recording contract?

Hilary Rosen: good question -- i think promotion is an important part of getting signed. If you can show a record company that there is a lot of interest in a band because your songs are getting traffic on-line, then that can be a plus.

Philadelphia: What do you think about Tipper? By the way, has she chilled somewhat since since she became the second lady?

Hilary Rosen: Tipper has totally chilled from public attacks. While she sought a public platform, she was always against government restricting speech. She has even helped us fight censorship bills in certain states over the years. Tipper is a very good person who has strongly held values that i respect. I hope the country lets her get past the PMRC days. i certainly have. she has been a great second lady and done a lot for this country.

Linton Weeks: Okay, one last question for you Hilary: Can you describe the RIAA's best-case scenario future for the recorded music industry? What happens to record labels, record stores, royalties, etc?

Hilary Rosen: I think we will have a evolution in the music business. We will live in a wonderful world of multiple formats, lots of creativity and enough musical variety for everyone. The Internet allows much more niche marketing don't forget -- do you like folk music, reggae? one-eyed male belly dancing blues singers?! there will be the ability like never before to get just what you are looking for, quickly and easily.

It all starts with the artist of course, but
record companies will continue to thrive because we invest in new talent and spend the resources to market and promote that talent -- that will always be necessary. Those retailers who adapt to the new on-line commerce world and mix it successfully with their existing businesses will also do well. Change is clearly happening but it is good change and music fans will be the beneficiary.

Thanks for inviting me, Linton. All the best.

Linton Weeks: And that concludes the show for today. Thanks so much to our guest Hilary Rosen, to the delightful staff at Washingtonpost.com and to all of you who sent in thoughtful questions. Next week my guest will be Alycia Eck of DC Webgrrls to talk about life online. Until then..."