Hayes discusses the pracices of pledging the same National Bank of Georgia loan collateral twice in the course of the interview :

Gup: You mean he borrowed twice on the same collateral?

Hayes: You could do that.

Gup: Is that right?

Hayes: That's right. And see that's the reason he could put is hands on a lot of money.

Gup: Did he do that (inaudible)?

Hayes: Oh we had to. I mean that's just common...

Gup: Let's say he's got a hundred throusand dollars worth of peanuts in the warehouse. He can borrow once on that.

Hayes: Yeah.

Gup: Then he releases them without paying the National Bank of Georgia. Then he shells them. And then he puts them in bags and calls them Lot 101 Then he can borrow -- then he borrowed against that lot again.

Hayes: Sure. He can actually do that to pay back this loan right here. But he's going to still owe for this riht here. And again, that's what I call kitein' money.

Gup: You call it --

Hayes: Kitein' money.

Gup: Gotten money?

Hayes: Kitein -- K-I-T-E-I-N-G, you know, like writing a bad check and beating it to the bank.

Gup: How often -- was this a regular -- ?

Hayes: Oh, that's the way I would have done it...

Gup: How many times did Billy actually do that though? Maybe a dozen, or --

Hayes: Maybe more. I mean, you know, anywhere from one to fifty, I mean, or maybe a hundred. It was nothing uncommon. But still, you know (inaudible) he didn't do it as much as anybody else would have done...

(At another point Hayes described his primary loyalty to Billy Carter although he was technisally employed by New York Terminal Co. (NYTCO), an independent field warehousing firm which has since been renamed Collateral Control Corp. of St. Paul. NYTCO was supposed to guarantee the National Bank of Georgia that peanuts were not leaving the Carter warehouse until repayment checks were simultaneously forwarded to NBG .)

Gup: I'm just wondering. If you were supposed to guard, to make sure the peanuts didn't go out... and you were getting paid more by Billy than by NYTCO, there might be feeling on your part you owed more to Billy than you owed to NYTCO.

Hayes: I always felt like I owed more to Billy than I did NYTCO. I still feel that way.

Gup: Who actually hired you, I mean got you on this job.

Hayes: Billy. Billy.

Gup: Okay, what did Billy say when you said 'Let's pay them back now?' [Gup was referring to repayments due the National Bank of Georgia.]

Hayes: All right. Different things like, 'I'll sign it tomorrow,' or 'They'll put you in jail.' You know, he and I were pretty good buddies. It was never like -- I never felt like I was going to jail, until I felt like I was going -- you know what I'm talking about? I'm a perfectionist, and I just hate to be behind... It was not important to Billy; it was important to me. I didn't have half a million dollars and he did. I always felt like, if you told a man you was going to do something, you ought to do it. And when I typed up that release and he would not sign it with me, or would not sign the check, I felt like he did me wrong. But I never would have doubted that he had the money.

Hayes discusses the erasures and other modifications of warehouse financial records to conceal delinquent payments on the NBG loan .

Gup: When you wrote down a release [for a shipment of peanuts], did you write down the real date for the release?

Hayes: Yeah.

Gup: You left the date out of it?

Hayes: ... [inaudible] What I'd do is, I'd go back and make the check right around that date, I believe is what I would do. Or either I'd just erase the date, start over.

Gup: What -- you left the date open on the release, in other words?

Hayes: Yeah.

Gup: And filled it in when you had the check?

Under terms of the NBC loan, the release of unshelled peanuts from the Carter warehouse was supposed to be acompanied by the prompt issuance of a check to NBG toward repayment of the line of credit .

Hayes acknowledges that he was concerned about the growing loan delinquencies and called associates at NYTCO .

Gup: We talk up north about a good old boy system where people know each other and things are done differently... Do you think that's one of the reasons why NYTCO didn't get more upset that he [Billy Carter] was getting behind?

Hayes: It could very well be by the same time... NYTCO didn't get upset because, when they would check us, at the time I was there we were always straight.

Gup: Now you said NYTCO didn't find the five hundred thousand behind because they didn't check at that period?

Hayes: Right.

Gup: But you also said that NYTCO... asked you to ask Billy to pay off the half million.

Hayes: Yeah. I called him [a NYTCO inspector] and said -- you know, at that time I was getting concerned myself. It's just that simple. And when we fell $500,000 behind, I, as the bonded agent, was very concerned about it. And at that time I called him to let him know that I was concerned about it, and he said, 'Well, just ask Billy to pay it.'

Gup: He wasn't upset. Okay.

Hayes: Now he would have been if Billy had not paid it, I can guarantee you that.

Gup: Did Billy pay it, they?

Hayes: Yes, sir.

Gup: You recall that. or --

Hayes: I know he paid it.

Gip: Okay, where did he get the money to pay it?

Hayes: It's just like I say -- he could have put his hands on what he wanted at any time. I mean, you know, he always had more assets than he had liabilities. New you're saying, 'Well okay, if he had that much money, why did he have to borrow from the National Bank of Georgia?' Maybe he borrowed from the National Bank of Georgia to pay the National Bank of Georgia. Really, you could do that.

(At one point, Hayes was asked by Gup what he would do if NYTCO learned that he was $500,000 behind in payments on the NBG loan .) Hayes: Fortunately for me they didn't come and check me during that time.

Gup: They didn't at all?

Hayes: That's right. Now if they had of, I would have certainly been behind. Now, how would I have gotten by with that? I would have opened my drawer, and I would have shown them here are my release orders.We know that we're behind. I'm going to get Billy to sign this; he's been on the road. It's that simple. Now, it was simple with the Carters.

(Hayes described how he would conceal that he was $500,000 behind in colclateral .)

Hayes: I'd check, and I knew I was exactly half a million dollars behind. That was no problem. Now (inaudible) it's really going to be hard to go back and check the records to see how far we were behind, because even when you's behind you can make it look right. Say it was May the lst, right? May the last we turn in a check, May the 3rd we the 2nd we turn in a check, May the 3rd we turn in a check. Every day in May we turn in a check, which looks like many of these people are good payers. But all we're doing is catching up half a million dollars.

Gup: You mean from the prior month?

Hayes: Yeah.

Gup: But it just seems to me that the bank was carrying Billy for a while.

Hayes: All right. Now you've asked me a question. Now I can give you an answer. They had to be.

Gup: They had to ne carrying Billy?

Hayes: That exactly right. The Carter warehouse.

(Hayes, at the close of the interview, said he would stand by his story but expressed fears of what his statements might lead to .)

Gup: You know I like you. I just hate to rely -- you know it's nice to have another person, or several persons, tell me the same thing.

Hayes: Yeah.

Gup: I'm going to Atlanta.

Hayes: I hate to be the only fellow that knows.You know, how will I be attacked?

You see what I'm trying to say? If they call me up there, see, and I'm the only man that knows it, you can't help but believe I'll be there.And I donht look forwards to that. I wouldn't -- you know, that's what I'm trying to say.

Gup: But I don't --

Hayes: Now forom your standpoint, if several folk knew, you could go to them and get the same story. You'd say, 'hey, this sounds pretty great.' But I tell you son, I haven't lied to you. The answers I gave you are straight.

Gup: I believe you.

Hayes: And I don't know what this is going to lead to.