President Donald J. Trump

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Opinion | We may never learn what happened between Trump and Pence on Jan. 6. - The Washington Post

Among the many things the House select committee examining the insurrection attempt is piecing together is what, precisely, transpired between President Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence on Jan. 6, 2021. This could help shed light on just how corruptly Trump acted — or even possibly whether he committed crimes amid his desperate attempt to overrule the will of voters.

A central piece of this puzzle is the last phone call that took place between Trump and Pence before the mob <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interactive/2021/jan-6-insurrection-capitol/" target=_blank>overran the Capitol</a>. But it is becoming clear that we may never learn the full story of that call.

A <a href="https://www.politico.com/news/2022/04/20/jan-6-committee-trump-pence-call-00026597">new piece in Politico</a> reports that the select committee appears flummoxed by a gap in what has been established about this communication. On that call, Trump apparently made a final push to get Pence to abuse his power and delay the congressional count of electors.

But at one point during that call, Pence left the room for 15 to 20 minutes, speaking to Trump without any of his aides present, Politico reports.

Pence’s aides have been cooperating with the committee, and they have shared many details on what they overheard on their end. But they are mostly in the dark about what happened during those missing minutes, and they testified that Pence didn’t fill them in on it.

Some Trump aides have apparently testified from their side about what they overheard Trump say throughout the call, including that missing period. Here’s what Politico reports about that:

Multiple people familiar with the testimony given to the select committee about the call offered a consistent account. One of those people — granted anonymity to speak candidly — said witnesses described the conversation as beginning relatively pleasantly, with Trump embracing the legal advice he was given about Pence’s ability to send the election back to the states.

Although people in the Oval Office couldn’t hear him, Pence had clearly rejected Trump’s entreaties, the person indicated. Witnesses have said listeners in the room were surprised because it was the first time they recalled Pence saying no to Trump. The call deteriorated and Trump grew frustrated.

We know from various reports that Trump’s pressure on Pence grew quite intense. But it’s not clear how much of this the committee will be able to confirm.

Here’s why this matters: What was said during that period could shed more light on the degree to which Trump pressured Pence to violate his official duty in demanding that Pence delay the electoral count to overturn the election.

This is one of the throbbing cores of corruption at the center of this whole saga. As <a href="https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/01/05/im-just-there-to-open-the-envelopes-the-select-committee-and-doj-investigations-have-converged-at-mike-pen/">Marcy Wheeler has detailed</a>, when Democrats impeached Trump for the second time, they floated the idea that, in pressuring Pence to subvert the electoral count, Trump might have been giving Pence an illegal order.

That has mostly disappeared from the discussion since, but it is important. What if, on that call, Pence directly informed Trump that the president was ordering him to do something illegal, and Trump instructed him to carry it out anyway?

Indeed, the full details of the call could conceivably help shed light on whether Trump committed crimes relating to Jan. 6, says former federal prosecutor Barbara McQuade. A key question is whether, in pressuring Pence and otherwise trying to subvert the congressional count of electors, Trump may have been committing the crime of obstructing an official proceeding.

Recall that when Trump <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interactive/2021/annotated-trump-speech-jan-6-capitol/">whipped up the mob on Jan. 6</a>, he seemed to be directing his followers to intimidate Pence into completing the procedural coup, after having failed to persuade Pence himself.

And so, as McQuade points out, the full details of what Trump said on that call could also further fill in just how far Trump went in pressuring Pence to violate his official duty in service of that same sordid goal.

“We want to know everything said on that call from beginning to end,” McQuade told us. Speaking of Trump, McQuade added: “It’s quite possible that during those missing minutes, he either persisted in that pressure, or perhaps he equivocated.”

Filling this in, says McQuade, could either potentially help “prove the case,” or alternately determine whether there’s “anything exculpatory about that conversation.”

We still don’t know whether the Justice Department will fully investigate whether Trump committed crimes related to Jan. 6 (it may be already doing so). If an investigation does happen, the department might be able to compel testimony to answer these questions in a way the House select committee cannot.

Until then, however, the select committee might not ever be able to fill in this full picture.

The committee still has not decided whether to pursue Pence’s testimony. And given his apparent presidential ambitions, he might not fully cooperate even if the committee does do so, because that could kill his hopes among GOP primary voters.

So, in the end, we may never know the full story of what happened between them on that dark day. And by extension, we may never know the full story of what Trump himself did.

Greg Sargent writes The Plum Line blog. He joined The Post in 2010, after stints at Talking Points Memo, New York Magazine and the New York Observer.

Greg Sargent

Paul Waldman is an opinion writer for the Plum Line blog. 

Paul Waldman

washpost

We may never learn what happened between Trump and Pence on Jan. 6.

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The Plum Line

Opinions from Greg Sargent and Paul Waldman.

The Washington Post Opinions section features opinion articles, op-eds, editorials by the Editorial Board, global opinions and letters to the editor on the issues of the day. Offerings include columns by Washington Post opinion writers, political cartoons by editorial cartoonists Ann Telnaes and Michael de Adder and podcasts by Jonathan Capehart.

Opinions

We may never learn what happened between Trump and Pence on Jan. 6

Opinion | A young Democrat’s viral takedown demands a ‘wokeness’ rethink - The Washington Post

"Wokeness is a problem and we all know it,” James Carville <a href="https://www.vox.com/22338417/james-carville-democratic-party-biden-100-days">recently told Vox</a> in his inimitably splenetic way. The veteran strategist called on Democrats to distance themselves from “faculty lounge bulls---” and to undo their image as an “urban, coastal, arrogant party.”

This was widely treated as a breakthrough moment in the debate over whether Democrats have a “wokeness” problem. It was approvingly quoted by not <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/19/opinion/democrats-biden-voters.html">one</a>, but <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/26/opinion/democrats-republicans-wokeness-cancel-culture.html">two</a> major New York Times writers.

So I contacted Carville to ask what he thought of Mallory McMorrow.

McMorrow, a Democratic state senator in Michigan, delivered an epic takedown of a GOP colleague on Tuesday that continues to go viral. It included forceful pushback against Republicans over laws stigmatizing gay and trans children and families, and a searing moral defense of treating them respectfully.

Was that “wokeness”? Yes, at least in a sense. But either way, Carville appeared transfixed by it.

“Enormously effective piece of communication,” Carville told me. “There’s really no comeback to it.”

Carville’s endorsement of this approach suggests how this McMorrow moment might push the stale “wokeness” debate in a more salutary direction. It might prod Democrats to rethink their responses to GOP attacks along these lines.

The 35-year-old McMorrow’s ire was triggered by a Republican colleague’s fundraising pitch describing McMorrow as a “groomer.” Be sure to watch McMorrow’s full response:

You’ll note that McMorrow didn’t sound defensive or offer mealy-mouthed, hairsplitting fact-checks. She didn’t capitulate to the Republican framing of these matters for a second.

Instead, McMorrow laid bare her deepest convictions and explained how they lead her to her positions on gay and trans rights, and why basic human decency demands them. Importantly, she made this about what Republicans are doing.

Many Democrats do profess outrage about the GOP’s use of the “groomer” slander. But you rarely hear Democrats go beyond casting themselves as mere victims of a vile smear, and instead hammering those pushing it for their rhetorical degeneracy, phony piety about protecting children, profound lack of rectitude, and all around sleazy and debased public conduct.

McMorrow’s description of herself as a White, Christian, suburban mom — one who wants her children to respect and empathize with non-Christian, non-White, gay and trans kids and families — gets at this. It turns the “identity politics” debate on its head.

It says, in effect, that the anti-”woke” warriors will not be permitted to sanctimoniously monopolize the moral and religious high ground for their identity group, while simultaneously pretending to be above identity-mongering and advancing a cruel and exclusionary agenda.

So what does this tell us about the “wokeness” debate?

Carville sees no contradiction between praising McMorrow and denouncing “faculty lounge” language. The rap against “wokeness” is often that Democrats traffic in or are too tolerant of professional-class jargon about race and gender, and that this must be reversed to avoid long-term political doom.

But the answer offered by critics of wokeness often suggests little more than employing <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/02/03/biden-eric-adams-democrats-wokeness-problem/" target=_blank>some form of rhetorical jujitsu</a>, or some <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Souljah_moment" target=_blank>Sister Souljah moment</a>, to evade the charge. This provides another way.

“She spoke English,” Carville told me. “She wasn’t defensive at all.” He noted that McMorrow personalized the issue, drew a sharp and legible contrast with Republicans, and even added in an argument about “roads and schools.”

“I’d show this clip as an instructional video,” Carville said. Asked if he’d advise other Democrats to talk this way, he said: “I would. I’m going to start talking that way.”

Those who <a href="https://www.thebulwark.com/the-messy-politics-of-teaching-gender/">argue for a middle-ground</a> approach — one that calls out certain rhetoric and analysis about topics such as gender identity as excessive while advocating for a defense of minority rights — can also land on something akin to this sweet spot.

The arguments can continue over <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/11/17/virginia-woke-critical-race-theory-liberals/">where the line should be drawn</a> against excessive wokeness. But liberals and Democrats can at least agree to forcefully defend shared baseline convictions, and above all, to centralize them. As Carville told me, McMorrow showed the way by plainly explaining “what every Democrat believes.”

Those warning of the dangers of wokeness are also making a structural argument. Because the Senate and electoral college are biased toward rural, dispersed populations and working-class Whites, Democrats <a href="https://gelliottmorris.substack.com/p/can-democrats-avoid-looming-electoral?s=r" target="_blank">must achieve a deep coalitional shift that reverses</a> ongoing partisan polarization along educational lines. Key to this is reducing the salience of wokeness issues.

Obviously those structural problems would not be solved if every Democrat suddenly started echoing McMorrow, and many other solutions will have to be sought. But <a href="https://us19.campaign-archive.com/?u=8855a23519ab892dfe2cd34f6&id=46bc1041e1">as Brian Beutler notes</a>, Democrats who survive in demographically and structurally challenging areas do so in part by building a certain type of image.

This tends to involve an aura of rectitude, ethical conduct and authentic empathizing with working-class people of all races enduring hardships of all kinds. It involves a willingness to say what you believe, to forthrightly expose deeply held convictions to moral scrutiny and argument. This moment appears to fit that bill.

Those demanding that Democrats achieve vast separation from wokeness should say where McMorrow’s handling of this fits into their schema. She didn’t distance herself from race or gender identity or avoid raising their salience.

So does this constitute something they’d advise against, for fear of aligning too closely with politically dangerous topics or positions? If not, what exactly are they saying?

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A young Democrat’s viral takedown demands a ‘wokeness’ rethink

SpaceX CEO Elon Musk provides an update on the development of the Starship spacecraft and Super Heavy rocket.

Opinion | Conservatives cheering on Elon Musk have been sold a bill of goods - The Washington Post

Conservatives have a new hero: Billionaire Elon Musk.

Some on the right have been declaring that if Musk succeeds in his attempt to buy Twitter, he will turn it from the oppressive jackbooted nightmare of censorship it has supposedly become into a paradise for conservative voices.

“We could see a return of free speech to the United States,” <a href="https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/04/13/fncs-carlson-elon-musk-seems-to-be-our-last-hope-for-online-speech/" target=_blank>enthuses</a> Fox News’s Tucker Carlson. Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-Colo.) <a href="https://twitter.com/RepBoebert/status/1514592765023334405">declares</a> that Musk “deserves the Medal of Freedom.”

Sen. Marsha Blackburn (R-Tenn.) <a href="https://twitter.com/MarshaBlackburn/status/1514648888355000323">insists</a> liberals are panicking about Musk owning Twitter “because they can’t buy his silence.” Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) <a href="https://twitter.com/repdarrellissa/status/1514601784370552841" target=_blank>says</a> liberals fear “losing the ability to censor conservatives online.”

The prospect of a Musk takeover is making liberals angry, so it must be good!

Where did these politicians share these dangerously controversial views? On Twitter, of course, where somehow they slipped their samizdat tweets past the censors.

This GOP hailing of Musk as a conquering hero has gotten so out of hand that Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis is threatening to target Twitter’s board for reducing its exposure to a possible hostile takeover attempt from Musk. DeSantis is <a href="https://sports.yahoo.com/ron-desantis-threatens-punish-twitter-172550532.html" target=_blank>openly vowing</a> to use state power for this purpose.

Greg Sargent

Washington, D.C.

We may never learn what happened between Trump and Pence on Jan. 6

A young Democrat’s viral takedown demands a ‘wokeness’ rethink

Conservatives cheering on Elon Musk have been sold a bill of goods

A conservative insider’s stark warning about Trump and 2024

Florida’s vile ‘groomer’ law may soon blow up in DeSantis’s face

A Democrat erupts at Josh Hawley, and a ‘loudness’ gap is revealed

With democracy under attack, Democrats see a firewall in states

Trump’s new admission about Jan. 6 should boost pressure on Garland

Democrats try a crazy new approach: Touting their accomplishments

As vile as it gets: J.D. Vance goes full ‘great replacement theory’