Julie Depenbrock

Jonathan Capehart

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Jonathan Capehart:: I'm Jonathan Capehart, and welcome to "Capehart." Janai S. Nelson is the Associate Director Counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund. But next month, Nelson will become the eighth President and Director Counsel of the legendary civil rights organization, founded by Thurgood Marshall before he became the first African-American to sit on the Supreme Court. Nelson will succeed Sherrilyn Ifill, whose name has been bandied about as someone who could fulfill President Biden's promise that the next Supreme Court justice will be a Black woman. In this conversation, first recorded on February 16th for "Washington Post Live," Nelson and I talked about the racism and sexism that awaits whomever Biden nominates. 

Janai Nelson> We're ready for that battle, and we're ready to point out and call out those instances where Black women are being subject to a different standard or being interrogated in ways that are inappropriate or where assumptions are made about their capacity that are unfounded and unfair and unjust. 

Jonathan Capehart:: Nelson also talks about her hero, famed jurist Constance Baker Motley, and the lessons she's learned from Sherrilyn Ifill. 

Jonathan Capehart> Miss Nelson, welcome to "Capehart," on "Washington Post Live." 

Janai Nelson> Thank you, Jonathan. It's wonderful to see you. 

Jonathan Capehart> So, as we know, February is Black History Month. Black women are the foundation of that history, American history. Who are the women who inspired you? 

Janai Nelson> There are so many women that have inspired me throughout my life and throughout my career. First and foremost, my mother. She is the rock upon which I stand, and I love her dearly, and she has been an inspiration throughout my life. There are so many professional women, so many women lawyers that I admire and look up to. I'd say that among the many are, of course, Constance Baker Motley, who is in the iconography of what it means to be an incredibly zealous and brilliant advocate, fearless, relentless, and committed to the cause of equal justice and civil rights. She also is one of the first female lawyers at the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund. She was one of the architects of Brown vs. Board of Education, which as you know dismantled American apartheid, and she was a mother. She was a community member. She was a second -- a first generation -- second generation immigrant. I mean, she checked so many different boxes in terms of what it means to be an American and what it means to be a leader in this country, and she is one of the women that I admire greatly. But I could probably go on and on about millions of others that I do, as well. 

Jonathan Capehart> Well, let's keep talking about her because Tomiko Brown-Nagin, author of the new book, "Civil Rights Queen: Constance Baker Motley and the Struggle for Equality," recently told "Washington Post Live," quote, "Historical significance and leadership are essentially coded male." Talk about the impact that's had on recognition of the contributions of Black women in our history. 

Janai Nelson> I think one of the easiest ways to point to the limitations that have been placed on Black women is the fact that we still have not yet had a Black woman as a Supreme Court justice, and you have extraordinarily qualified people like Constance Baker Motley, who was a federal district court judge -- in fact, the very first Black woman to become a federal district court judge, but was not elevated as she should have been based on her record, based on her experience, based on her enormous potential to be one of the most excellent jurists that this country has ever known. And that glass ceiling that is, you know, doubly thick for Black women is something that I'm acutely aware of in the profession still, and it's a loss for this country not to have the best and the brightest persons available for any and all positions in this country. Black women have been shut out of those positions for too long. Constance Baker Motley was a trailblazer, but we're talking about decades ago. And the numbers of firsts that are still happening today are far too many. 

Jonathan Capehart> Well, let's talk about why that glass ceiling is doubly thick, maybe even triply thick for Black women. You've said Black women, quote, "simultaneously endure entrenched racism and sexism, the compounding effects of which often mean that their experiences of violence and racism are suppressed or overlooked." Now that we're about to see a Black woman named, nominated to the Supreme Court, talk about how that entrenched racism and sexism will bear itself out in that instance. 

Janai Nelson> Well, I think we can all be optimistic and hopeful that it won't be the unfortunate display that we've seen in the Senate with respect to other nominees, but we are bracing ourselves for this to be a significant interrogation of the many qualified nominees that might become the final nominee of this White House. I am certain that we will see sexism. We will see racism. We will see the intersection of those two in the questioning and the doubts about qualifications, but what has been wonderful is looking at the numerous lists of people that would be overqualified, as some have said, to be on the Supreme Court. And so we're ready for that conversation. We're ready for that battle, and we're ready to point out and call out those instances where Black women are being subject to a different standard or being interrogated in ways that are inappropriate or where assumptions are made about their capacity that are unfounded and unfair and unjust. 

Jonathan Capehart> You know, speaking of that, I was just trying to find the full quote from Senator John Kennedy, who is a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee -- somebody who will have a vote in whether the nominee gets voted out of committee, and he said he had two concerns. The first one he mentioned was "I want a nominee who knows a law book from a J Crew catalog." Now, in that statement, race isn't mentioned. Sex isn't mentioned. But I know in my gut what he's talking about. Talk about how -- assuming you also find that offensive, why is that offensive? 

Janai Nelson> It is deeply offensive, and it calls into question his ability to be an objective member of the Senate to properly advise and consent on whether a future nominee is, in fact, qualified and appropriate. That is laden with assumptions about gender and sex and capacity and frivolity that is just embedded in that statement. It is deeply concerning that he would feel that he has license to make that statement in advance of vetting a nominee, and I think we need to pay close attention and begin to hold elected officials accountable when they made statements that reveal that they are perhaps incapable themselves of fulfilling the duties of the positions for which they've been elected. 

Jonathan Capehart> Mm-hmm. I have said that the names of the women who have been mentioned as potential nominees to the Supreme Court are -- they're more qualified than a lot of the people who were nominated before them and certainly who could be nominated after them, but, you know, one of the names that's been mentioned as a potential nominee is Sherrilyn Ifill, who currently runs the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund for about another month, until you succeed her. But talk about the significance of a Black woman, no matter who is chosen, sitting on the high court. 

Janai Nelson> Well, it will be something that I think will be a game changer in terms of how we understand the law and its impact on a segment of society that doesn't often get its day in court and doesn't often have its voice heard, and that is the segment of Black women who fuel this country in so many ways, who are on the front lines defending our democracy, putting their bodies on the line, and compromising themselves in many ways to ensure that we uphold our constitutional ideals. We're talking about Black women who suffer significant wage gap in the economy, Black women who are becoming incarcerated at an increasingly rapid rate, and Black women who are at the margins of society in so many ways. We will now have someone on the court who has some sense of what any one of those experiences might be and whether they've personally experienced it, observed it, have relatives who may have those experiences, or just having been and being a member of that broader community makes them more attuned to those conditions. And I look forward to seeing that perspective borne out in the decisions that are made in the colloquy among the justices on the court and to influence how we interpret laws that will affect Black women, all women, and other marginalized groups in our society. 

Jonathan Capehart> Will the LDF play a role in helping to shepherd the eventual nominee through the process? 

Janai Nelson> Well, the Legal Defense Fund has been actively involved in judicial nominations for decades. We take this very seriously. As you might imagine, as an organization whose trade is to litigate in addition to our many other advocacy tools, we care deeply about the composition of the Supreme Court and deeply about the composition of all of our federal courts and state courts. We have advocated vigorously for more diversity on the court, diversity not only of race and ethnicity but of professional background, and I have to say we're quite pleased to see the judiciary diversifying rapidly under President Biden's leadership. However, I will say that in this process, we will be paying close attention to how this nominee is vetted and shepherded through the process. We will not stand by and allow a nominee to be disrespected or disregarded inappropriately. Any nominee should be subject to the scrutiny that any other justice would be subject to. We always -- or often write a report and dig deep into the records of any nominee for the Supreme Court, and we will do just the same for this nominee. However, this nominee must be treated with the same respect and the same fairness that any nominee for the Supreme Court would be, and that is something that we will be paying close attention to. 

Jonathan Capehart> What do you say to those people who might -- as with the Senator Kennedy comment, where it doesn't, like, flash bright red, doesn't have all the keywords that get people to think, "Oh, sexism, oh, racism," what do you say to folks who will hear -- because you and I both know, we are going to hear some very coded, thinly veiled racist things, sexist things, misogynistic things about the nominee. What do you say to folks to prepare them for things that might not to them be obvious in the moment? 

Janai Nelson> Well, what I want to say, first and foremost, is that the media has a very significant responsibility in this. The media has an obligation to point out those subtleties, to disrobe what are cloaked offenses and assumptions and presumptions about this nominee that might be unfair and that might tilt the process in a way that compromises what should be an appropriate outcome. So the media to me is, first and foremost, responsible in translating some of this for the public, and of course, organizations like the Legal Defense Fund who are out there talking about the way in which the court is critically important as a third arm of our government, that any process that leads to the confirmation of a justice must be free and fair of bias and prejudice. And we will, as I said, be paying close attention to how this process unfolds. And this administration also has an obligation to protect its nominee and to make sure that that nominee is treated fairly. So there are a lot of ways in which we can call it out and ways in which we can make it more difficult for those types of assaults of missives to land or have any effect, but the first way to do that is to name it and unveil it for what it is and not let it be misinterpreted by anyone, by any member of the public who may not fully appreciate some of the subtleties of the process. 

Jonathan Capehart> Mm-hmm. Let's switch gears here because this month marks 10 years since the death of Trayvon Martin. Talk about the impact of his death and the Black Lives Matter movement sparked by it. 

Janai Nelson> His death and so many others have fueled a movement that I think has been one of the most transformative movements of our generation. It's been a catalyst for uprisings and an outpouring of action and emotion, not just in this country but across the globe, and it is still what I think is going to fuel what I know will be a reenvisioning of public safety in this country and a rededication to core principles of what it means to be an American and to uphold the ideals of this country that have never been completely fulfilled. I think seeing that type of injustice up close, seeing the killing of young Black children indiscriminately by law enforcement, by would-be law enforcement, vigilantes, those who want to take the law into their own hands, those are instances where racism just can't be denied, where the denigration of Black humanity and Black dignity is something that you simply cannot turn away from. That is why we saw so many people pouring into the streets in 2020 when we saw the heinous murder and callous murder of George Floyd on the streets of Minneapolis, and that, I believe, is something that is talking to the hearts and the core of our American public and saying we will take no more of this. Of course, there have been divisions since. It's a complicated issue to solve, and it is not something that will be solved overnight. If it were, it would have been solved a long time ago, but I do believe that it is the catalyst that will galvanize young people across generations, across ethnic backgrounds and economic backgrounds to have us rethink the society we want to be in the United States. 

Jonathan Capehart> You know, as you know, the fight for equality and social justice is often described as one step forward, two steps back. Where are we right now in that continuum do you think? 

Janai Nelson> Well, you know, we've made a number of strides. I definitely would say that we are holding. We're trying to hold the line, not to swing, not to have the pendulum swing backwards, but there's no way that we can deny the fact that there is retrenchment, that there is a resurgence of bold white supremacy unlike anything we've seen in recent decades. We've always known that it was there, that it was latent, that it was an invisible force working and wreaking havoc in our society. But now it's been laid bare. We see protests in the street. We see attacks not only on individuals but threats to HBCUs. We're seeing school boards and teachers and administrators being threatened for simply telling the truth of our history, and there's no denying that that is regression, that that is not a step forward. That is certainly a step back. But I don't think we have to step all the way back. There is still an opportunity to use this moment to recognize and to show that the people who are advancing this very divisive movement are a minority in this country. 

Jonathan Capehart> Mm-hmm. 

Janai Nelson> And it's easy to forget that because their actions are often headlines, and their actions are often -- there's often a spotlight on what they do and not enough attention on the ways in which we are unified against those efforts. But there's more that we can do to redouble our opposition to this effort, to take us backwards, to make sure that we have the backs of our teachers and the backs of our students who want a culturally responsive, inclusive, culturally, and critically rigorous education, which is what the confrontation of our history requires and demands and something that we should embrace. Our children are strong enough for this. They can handle the truth of our history because it will only fortify them in the fight to make the future even better. 

Jonathan Capehart> Janai, what does it mean to you to be taking over as president and director Counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund? 

Janai Nelson> It means the honor of a lifetime. This is a legacy institution, a Black-founded legacy institution that has been at the center of holding our democracy accountable to itself, and to be at the helm at this critical time when our democracy is at a crossroads is not only a challenge, it is a privilege, and it is an honor, and that is mainly because the work of past presidents and director counsels who have developed and nurtured this organization and have solidified its reputation. And the staff that fuels the work that we do and the clients who are at the center of everything that we do at the Legal Defense Fund, it's why we exist. They are the core of our mission, and it is, as I said, the honor of a lifetime to be in this position at this moment. 

Jonathan Capehart> Mm-hmm. What legacy does Sherrilyn Ifill leave, and what's the biggest lesson you've learned from her? 

Janai Nelson> Well, I think it's hard to summarize Sherrilyn's legacy in a short sound bite, but I would say she's left a legacy of transformation and visionary leadership. She has shown not only through her brilliant legal strategy and thinking through of the critical interventions that were needed on the front of litigation and research and policy and organizing but also the ways in which institutions like the Legal Defense Fund need to be fortified in order to ensure that there are checks on our society when they face their darkest moments, as we did and as we still are facing now. So her legacy will be one of transformation and fortification, and that is the legacy that I plan to build on with the wonderful staff and team that we have here at the Legal Defense Fund. And there's so many lessons that I've learned in the nearly nine years that she and I have been partnering together here at the Legal Defense Fund, but the takeaway really is to be unrelenting and unapologetic about our commitment and dedication to equality and justice, that those are just causes for which we hold no shame and, in fact, great pride and great passion for advancing on behalf of Black communities and on behalf of our democracy as a whole. 

Jonathan Capehart> Janai S Nelson, currently Associate Director Counsel and -- but incoming President of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, thank you so much for coming to "Capehart" and "Washington Post Live." 

Janai Nelson> Thank you, Jonathan. Good to be with you. 

Jonathan Capehart:: Thanks for listening to "Capehart." It's produced by Julie Depenbrock. We'll have new episodes for you every Tuesday. I'm Jonathan Capehart. You can find me on Twitter at @CapehartJ.  


https://podcast.posttv.com/vitac-transcripts/c4df7994-9f89-4c46-abe0-11dfa96cbf43_6210098fc9e77c00080a723a-transcript.txt

Opinion writer Jonathan Capehart talks with newsmakers who challenge your ideas on politics, and explore how race, religion, age, gender and cultural identity are redrawing the lines that both divide and unite America.

Cape Up: a Washington Post opinions podcast

Next month, Janai S. Nelson, who currently serves as the associate director counsel of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, will succeed Sherrilyn Ifill as president of the legendary civil rights organization. This conversation was recorded Feb. 18 for Washington Post Live.

A conversation with Janai S. Nelson

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