As he has been so many times before, President Trump’s lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani was dispatched Thursday night to respond to a suspicious set of circumstances involving his boss and/or to preempt bad news that might result from it.

And as he has been so many times before, Giuliani was both all over the place and possibly more forthcoming than would serve his client’s interests. At one point, he denied that he personally asked Ukraine to investigate unproven allegations involving former vice president and Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden, only to state 30 seconds later that he had done just that.

Below is the transcript of his appearance on CNN, with highlights, analysis and fact-checking in yellow.

CHRIS CUOMO: The president’s counselor, former mayor Rudy Giuliani. Good to have you on the show.

GIULIANI: Oh, I’m glad I’m on tonight because what you just said is totally erroneous.

Every single thing you just said is completely spun in the same direction you’ve been doing for two years with these, “Oh, tonight, Papadopoulos is going to prove Russian collusion.” Let me tell you what happened, okay?


GIULIANI: What — what happened is that I was investigating, going back to last year, complaints that the Ukrainian people, several people in Ukraine, knew about a tremendous amount of collusion between Ukrainian officials, and Hillary Clinton, and the Democratic National Committee, including a completely fraudulent document that was produced, in order to begin the investigation of [Paul] Manafort.

They were trying to get to us. But they were being blocked by the ambassador who was [an] Obama appointee, in Ukraine, who was holding back this information. In the course of investigating that, I found out this incredible story about Joe Biden that he bribed the president of the Ukraine in order to fire a prosecutor who was investigating his son.

That is an astounding scandal, of major proportions, which all of you have covered up, for about five or six months. You've also covered up the fact that Biden and his son took $1.5 billion out of China.

And that’s why the president thinks you’re a corrupt media, because if this would — President Trump and Donald Trump Jr., and they took millions of dollars from a corrupt oligarch in the Ukraine, and they took $1.5 billion out of China, while the president was negotiating with China, you would be screaming and yelling and going crazy about how corrupt it is. And because it’s Joe Biden, and he’s a protected Democrat, you don’t cover it.

CUOMO: All right.

GIULIANI: This scandal is a scandal —


GIULIANI: — of major proportion. Now, was I —

CUOMO: Are you — are you done now?

GIULIANI: No, I'm not done now.

CUOMO: Because you haven't said anything — you have well —


CUOMO: But you can't just talk the whole time, Rudy.

GIULIANI: I have — I haven't done — I haven't — I haven't said anything yet.

CUOMO: You can't say that everything I said was erroneous.

GIULIANI: I haven't said anything yet.

CUOMO: When I didn't say anything that's untrue yet.

GIULIANI: No, you did.

CUOMO: By your own reckoning.

GIULIANI: You said I was investigating —

CUOMO: What did I say?

GIULIANI: — it for political purposes. I was not.

CUOMO: You — I said you — I said —

GIULIANI: I'm a lawyer, Chris.

CUOMO: I know what you are.

GIULIANI: I'm a defense lawyer.

CUOMO: I know what you are.

GIULIANI: That's protected by the United States Constitution.

CUOMO: Which raises the question why were you investigating this? Why did you back away from the trip when it got scrutiny?

GIULIANI: Because I was told —

CUOMO: Why did you wind up meeting in Spain instead of Ukraine?

GIULIANI: — because I was told that the people at the meeting with the president were people who work for George Soros. And George Soros had been funding this whole thing from the very, very beginning. Not only that. That was corroborated —

CUOMO: That's why you backed away?

GIULIANI: Yes. Because they were going to lie about the conversation I was having with the president.

CUOMO: You have proof that Soros was funding it?

GIULIANI: I — oh, I absolutely do. I have proof.

CUOMO: How so?

GIULIANI: Okay. George Soros had a — had a not-for-profit called AntAC. AntAC is the one that developed all of the dirty information that ended up being a false document that was created in order to incriminate Manafort.

CUOMO: Do you have the proof of that?

GIULIANI: They also helped —

CUOMO: That that's who funded all these things?

GIULIANI: Absolutely.

CUOMO: Because, you know, the — the —

GIULIANI: December — Chris, Chris —

CUOMO: — the United States Attorney just found its —

GIULIANI: — December —

CUOMO: — own stuff about Manafort.

GIULIANI: — December 16th, 2018, there is a finding by a court in the Ukraine that a man named Telechenko (ph), Yushchenko (ph) — something like that — that he produced a phony affidavit that was given to the American authorities and an FBI agent named Greenwood, and they found him guilty of that. Nobody reports that —

CUOMO: All right, so, Rudy —

GIULIANI: — in the United States because you don’t report things that are favorable to the president —

[21:05:00] CUOMO: Rudy — well, that’s not true.

GIULIANI: — and negative to Democrats.

CUOMO: But — but, Rudy, listen.

GIULIANI: Let me go further about finding —

CUOMO: Wait, hold on a second. Let’s — let’s go step by step, because forget about the fact that you said what I said was erroneous, one.

GIULIANI: It is, Chris.

CUOMO: I haven't said — I didn't say any of the things you're saying now.

GIULIANI: I wasn't — I was not investigating it —

CUOMO: I don't even know if they're true.

GIULIANI: — for political —

CUOMO: But the idea —

GIULIANI: Well, then why did you say I was doing it for political —


GIULIANI: — purposes?

CUOMO: I — I didn't say political purposes. I said you were going after political —

GIULIANI: I am the president’s —

CUOMO: — opponents of Mr. Trump.

GIULIANI: — I am the — I am the president’s attorney.

CUOMO: That's what Joe Biden is. That's what Hillary Clinton is.

GIULIANI: Joe Biden is presumed innocent. But somebody’s got to investigate him for going to the president of the Ukraine, and telling him —

CUOMO: That's fine. You just want to make sure that —

GIULIANI: — I'm not going to give you —

CUOMO: — you’re not going there under color of authority of the president.

GIULIANI: — but somebody has to investigate it. No, no, no, no.

CUOMO: But let me ask you something else.

GIULIANI: Not because of the authority of the president because when the new prosecutor, that Joe put in, came in, he not only dismissed the case on Hunter Biden, for getting about $6 million in laundered money from —

CUOMO: The prosecutor that was removed, which was the original intrigue on Joe Biden — that prosecutor was removed, first of all, by consensus of a multiple of Western countries, and it was after Hunter Biden’s stuff was done.

Yes, look, you should have your hand on your face. You know why? This is all a distraction from what I asked you first —

GIULIANI: No, it isn't a distraction, Chris.

CUOMO: — about in the first place, which is —

GIULIANI: What you just said is totally wrong.

CUOMO: — is it's — it's not what I just —

GIULIANI: It's completely wrong.

CUOMO: It — it is totally correct.

GIULIANI: The prosecutor —

CUOMO: And in the factual timeline.

GIULIANI: Chris, you don't know what happened.

CUOMO: The prosecutor was out.

GIULIANI: I know what happened.

CUOMO: How do you know when I don't know?

GIULIANI: You are — you are just repeating — you're just repeating spin. The prosecutor —

CUOMO: Oh, but — but you don't, right?

GIULIANI: — the prosecutor —

CUOMO: You're not spinning anything.


CUOMO: Go ahead.

GIULIANI: I’m not spinning a d---- thing.

CUOMO: Okay.

GIULIANI: I'm telling you the truth.

CUOMO: Okay.

GIULIANI: The prosecutor was removed because he was investigating the son, and he was investigating Soros’s charity or whatever the hell it was, AntAC. The new prosecutor that came in dismissed both cases, and the president —

CUOMO: The prosecutor who was pushed out was unanimously seen as corrupt, by the way.

GIULIANI: No, he wasn't. He wasn't unanimously seen as corrupt.

CUOMO: All right, so —

GIULIANI: That's an after-the-fact statement. The prosecutor —

CUOMO: What do you mean after-the-fact statement?

GIULIANI: You don't look at Joe Biden —

CUOMO: Was he seen as corrupt or no?

GIULIANI: — who probably is working with half the IQ that you and I have. If you listen to Joe Biden’s tape, he convicts himself. He says, ‘I told the president of the Ukraine, if you don’t dismiss this guy, you’re not going to get your 1.2—’

CUOMO: All right, so that's what you say —

GIULIANI: — billion dollar —

CUOMO: — Biden said to the Ukraine. Did you to ask the Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden?

GIULIANI: No. Actually, I didn't. I asked the Ukraine to investigate the allegations that there was interference in the election of 2016, by the Ukrainians, for the benefit of Hillary Clinton, for which there already is a court finding —

CUOMO: You never asked anything about Hunter Biden? You never asked anything about Joe Biden —

GIULIANI: The only thing I asked about Joe Biden —

CUOMO: — and his role with the prosecutor?

GIULIANI: — is to get to the bottom of how it was that Lutsenko who was appointed —

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: — dismissed the case against AntAC.

CUOMO: So, you did ask Ukraine to look into Joe Biden?

GIULIANI: Of course, I did.

CUOMO: You just said you didn't.

GIULIANI: No. I didn't ask them to look into Joe Biden. I asked them to look into the allegations that related to my client, which tangentially involved Joe Biden in a massive bribery scheme.

CUOMO: Rudy? Rudy?

GIULIANI: Not unlike what he did in China.

CUOMO: Rudy?

GIULIANI: You explain to me how the kid got $1.5 billion from China —

CUOMO: Rudy, I have no problem with you launching allegations.

GIULIANI: — when Joe Biden was still in his —

CUOMO: But just be careful about what you say. I asked you, did you ask Ukraine —

GIULIANI: I am very careful about what I say.

CUOMO: — to look at Joe Biden, you said “No.”

GIULIANI: I didn't ask —

CUOMO: Then you went on to say that you did. The — it's all —

GIULIANI: No, I didn't say that.

CUOMO: — it's all recorded, Rudy.

GIULIANI: What I said was this. I asked them to investigate the allegations that relate to the false charges against the president of the United States. Those allegations tangentially involved Biden —

CUOMO: So your answer —

GIULIANI: — getting the —

CUOMO: — should have been yes.

GIULIANI: Let me finish, Chris. Let me finish.

CUOMO: Go ahead.

GIULIANI: And don't try to interrupt because you don't like the answer. And you don't like —

CUOMO: Well, I don’t like the evasiveness.

GIULIANI: — in what I'm saying. And you don't like —

CUOMO: Evasiveness, I don't like.

GIULIANI: — and you want to distort what I'm saying.

CUOMO: I don't want to distort.

GIULIANI: Because it is totally biased.

CUOMO: I'm not biased.

GIULIANI: You are, Chris. It's sad.

CUOMO: Why would I have you on if I were biased?

GIULIANI: Because —

CUOMO: Knowing that we’re going to have this kind of conversation.

GIULIANI: — because it is sad to watch what happened to you. It's sad.

CUOMO: Sad with what — what happened to me?

GIULIANI: You're a total sellout.

CUOMO: I'm a sellout?

GIULIANI: You are a sellout. I'm going to tell you why.

CUOMO: You are telling me that I'm a sellout?

GIULIANI: These are crimes of major proportions. And because they're Democrats, you won't cover it. $1.5 million investment by China in Biden's private equity fund, and the partners are —

CUOMO: I'm not saying that these types of things haven't —

GIULIANI: — Kerry's son and —

CUOMO: — shouldn't be looked at.

GIULIANI: — Whitey Bulger's nephew. Do you know that they were partners with Whitey Bulger's nephew?

CUOMO: Rudy, I'm not saying that anything —

GIULIANI: That's outrageous.

CUOMO: — that you're saying shouldn't be looked at.

GIULIANI: And your corrupt media won't cover it because he's a Democrat.

CUOMO: Rudy, I can't just cover something because you say I should, all right?

GIULIANI: No, you don't have to —

CUOMO: That's not the way it works.

GIULIANI: — say I should.

CUOMO: But it got to tell you. You who —

GIULIANI: Read the book.

CUOMO: — you who my whole lifetime stood up for one simple ideal —


CUOMO: — when you were at your best —

GIULIANI: And I am standing — standing up for justice.

CUOMO: — which was character counts and leadership.

GIULIANI: And you are standing up for two systems of justice.

CUOMO: Oh, I'm standing up for two systems of justice?

GIULIANI: Joe Biden can be involved in bribery. Joe Biden’s son can get $1.5 billion from China, and you won’t cover it. And you want to cover some ridiculous charge that I urged the Ukrainian government to investigate corruption. Well, I did, and I’m proud of it. And you should encourage it —

CUOMO: Well, then it’s not — then it’s not a ridiculous allegation. You just admitted it.

GIULIANI: It's a ridiculous allegation.

CUOMO: You just admitted it.

GIULIANI: It's a ridiculous allegation.

CUOMO: Rudy, you just admitted —

GIULIANI: Of course, of course, of course, I should —

CUOMO: — that you did it.

GIULIANI: — of course I should.

CUOMO: I'm not saying it was wrong for you to do it. I'm asking you —

GIULIANI: It wasn't wrong for me to do it.

CUOMO: — if you asked them, and now you're finally saying yes.

GIULIANI: And I am glad that the only way —

CUOMO: Did the president ask the president of Ukraine —

GIULIANI: — the only way — I knew this —

CUOMO: — to do the same thing?

GIULIANI: — I knew this a year ago. The only way this would come out is if you come after me. Well, fine.

CUOMO: I'm not coming after you.

GIULIANI: Come after me.

CUOMO: I’m asking you questions, okay? And I’m asking you —

GIULIANI: And I'm answering your questions. But you don't like —

CUOMO: — yes, kind of, kind of —

GIULIANI: — the answers.

CUOMO: That’s — well, some of the answers I don’t love, but I’m letting you give the answers.

GIULIANI: Well, you don’t like the answers, because the answers make out a prima facie case of bribery against a vice president of the United States.

CUOMO: Well, no. They’re your — they’re your suggestions about it.

GIULIANI: At the time.

CUOMO: And that’s fine. I’m not saying that it doesn’t—

GIULIANI: No, Chris.

CUOMO: — deserve discussion.

GIULIANI: Let's talk like a —

CUOMO: Will you please answer my question?

GIULIANI: Let's talk like lawyers for a minute.

CUOMO: All right, good, then respect this lawyer asking you —

GIULIANI: Is the crime of bribery —

CUOMO: Hold on. I don't want to hear it.

GIULIANI: — is the crime of bribery — the crime of bribery —

CUOMO: Rudy, Rudy, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of them right now.

GIULIANI: I taught law. You're going to listen.

The crime of bribery is if I offer something of value to someone in return for their official action. Joe Biden offered them a 1.5 billion — billion dollar, $1.2 billion loan guarantee in return for him firing a prosecutor.

CUOMO: And you have proof?

GIULIANI: That is a prima —

CUOMO: That it was a quid pro quo situation, and you can show it?

GIULIANI: Yes. You know what the proof is? Joe Biden, 2018, January, in front of the Council on Foreign Relations, saying the whole thing.

CUOMO: He said —

GIULIANI: He just —

CUOMO: — I'm going to give you this money if you get rid of this prosecutor?

GIULIANI: 100 percent, exactly.

CUOMO: Send me the transcript.

GIULIANI: Go listen to it and apologize to me. Go listen to it. He said exactly that. But he left one thing out.

CUOMO: Oh! What did he leave out?

GIULIANI: Left out the fact that his son was under investigation —

CUOMO: But isn't that the important thing —

GIULIANI: — which is the motive.

CUOMO: — because he needed to have a motive in order to do it?

GIULIANI: No. The crime actually gets completed when he says, ‘I’ll give you the $1.2 billion, but you have to fire the prosecutor.’

For whatever reason he wants the prosecutor fired, you cannot offer something of value in exchange for official action. Crime over with. Motive: The kid was under investigation because he had gotten $6 billion from the most crooked Ukrainian oligarch.

CUOMO: Look, obviously, if they could have —

GIULIANI: — a guy named Chenko (ph).

CUOMO: — shown that Biden was doing something for his son that went beyond —

GIULIANI: Get out of here. Get out.

CUOMO: — questionable ethics.

GIULIANI: You believe that, Chris —

CUOMO: All right, listen.

GIULIANI: — then go somewhere on an island.

CUOMO: Listen, but I'll tell you what.

GIULIANI: No. They wouldn't do it.

CUOMO: I wish you had this same attitude when I was asking you —

GIULIANI: And not only that. Not only that.

CUOMO: — about all the ridiculous things that this president has tried to —

GIULIANI: You guys don't cover —

CUOMO: — pass off as truth.

GIULIANI: — You don’t cover corruption —

CUOMO: No, you’re all about incredulous.

GIULIANI: — against Democrats the way you cover corruption —

CUOMO: Yes. All right, you know, it's easy for you to say.

GIULIANI: — against Republicans. If suppose —

CUOMO: — when the current administration is the one we’re look at, right?

GIULIANI: — suppose — suppose Donald Trump Jr.—

CUOMO: Why don’t you wait for a Democratic administration and then level the charge?

GIULIANI: — got $6 billion — got $1.5 billion from China while Trump is negotiating with China —

CUOMO: It would be a problem.

GIULIANI: You're d--- right. Well —

CUOMO: It would be a big problem.

GIULIANI: — well, how come you’re not covering the fact that that happened with —

CUOMO: Because I don't know that it did.

GIULIANI: — Vice President Biden.

CUOMO: That's why.

GIULIANI: You know what happened.

CUOMO: You're making it sound like he did it to help his son.

GIULIANI: I'll give you a book.

CUOMO: And I don't know that he did it to help his son.

GIULIANI: It's written in a book.

CUOMO: And he said he didn't do it to help his son.

Now, will you finally answer my question now that we're 12 minutes in it?

GIULIANI: Well, do we really believe —

CUOMO: Did the president —

GIULIANI: — we really believe he didn't know his son was under investigation?

CUOMO: Why won't you answer the question?

GIULIANI: What was the question?

CUOMO: What is it with you?

GIULIANI: What's the question?

CUOMO: Thank you. Did the president talk to the Ukrainian president about what he wanted done with Joe Biden and what he wanted done with Paul Manafort?

GIULIANI: I have no idea. I never asked him that. I don’t know if he did. And I wouldn’t care if he did. He had every right to do it at the president of the United States.

He had every right to say to the Ukrainian president: We have two outstanding allegations of massive corruption and —

CUOMO: Did he ask you to do —

GIULIANI: — you should investigate it.

CUOMO: — what you're doing?

GIULIANI: No. I did what I did on my own. And then I told him —

CUOMO: Really?

GIULIANI: — about it afterwards because I’m his lawyer, and I know how to investigate —

CUOMO: So, you never talk to him about it before —

GIULIANI: — and I —

CUOMO: — you only talk to him about it after.

GIULIANI: Three months after I found out about it, and then I found out that it was true, by getting signed sworn statements, from five people in the Ukraine, who said that we were brought into the White House, the Obama White House, and we were told, go dig up dirt on Trump and Manafort in January of 2016. You have no idea how big this is because you're blinded.

CUOMO: I loved —

GIULIANI: You're blinded by —

CUOMO: Give me — give me the affidavits.

GIULIANI: — your prejudice.

CUOMO: Give me the affidavits. I appreciate the personal insults.

GIULIANI: I'm not going to give you the affidavit.

CUOMO: Well, why not?

GIULIANI: I'll give them in court. I'm not going to give them to you.

CUOMO: So go present them.

GIULIANI: Who are you?

CUOMO: Who am I? I'm a journalist.

GIULIANI: I'll give them to a court.

CUOMO: You keep saying that —

GIULIANI: But you're not the FBI.

CUOMO: Hold on, hold on, Rudy, Rudy.

GIULIANI: You can't indict anybody.

CUOMO: You — you want to say I won't cover it because I'm like this, right, you say?

GIULIANI: Oh, man, when I — when I watched the introduction to your show —

CUOMO: But now you won't give me the proof.

GIULIANI: I'm not going to give you proof.

CUOMO: What?

GIULIANI: What can you do? You can't indict anybody.

CUOMO: I’m — So what?

GIULIANI: Believe me. The proof is in the right hands. And you're going to find out about it. And I — I used to think you'll be embarrassed when you find out what happened. But you know something?

CUOMO: Why would I be embarrassed by the truth —

GIULIANI: You'll find some other excuse —

CUOMO: — coming out?

GIULIANI: Because you should have been embarrassed —

CUOMO: Why would I be embarrassed?

GIULIANI: — when there was no Russian collusion. You should have apologized for all the coverage that you did about —

CUOMO: Why would I apologize?

GIULIANI: — Russian collusion.

CUOMO: I was one of the —

GIULIANI: You should.

CUOMO: — first to say that there is no crime of collusion. I was one of the first to say that —

GIULIANI: Yes. But then you went to say, well, he did other things wrong.

CUOMO: — there is no such thing as collusion as a crime.

GIULIANI: He did this wrong.

CUOMO: He did do other things wrong.

GIULIANI: Look, you guys are —

CUOMO: And you know it.

GIULIANI: — you guys are on a mission.

CUOMO: And the Rudy Giuliani who was a prosecutor —

GIULIANI: Do you think I'm a fool?

CUOMO: — and a mayor knew what right was.

GIULIANI: You think I'm a fool?

CUOMO: And what wrong was before he became a lawyer —

GIULIANI: You're on a mission —

CUOMO: — for this guy.

GIULIANI: You're on a mission to get this guy no matter what. And you know something?

CUOMO: That couldn't be farther from the truth.

GIULIANI: Whatever he did is nothing compared to what Biden did. And when you find out —

CUOMO: Listen, all —

GIULIANI: — you should be embarrassed but you won't.

CUOMO: All right, fine, fine.

GIULIANI: You'll find another excuse.

CUOMO: I, look, I — I’m very — I’m very interested in your personal insults of me. We can meet some other time.

GIULIANI: I'm not — I'm not — I'm not personally insulting you.

CUOMO: And you can say it all to me face-to-face. And we can get it out.

GIULIANI: I am institutionally —

CUOMO: The hell you’re not! But that’s okay.

GIULIANI: — insulting you. Chris —

CUOMO: That’s — okay, that’s okay. That’s what you want to do.

GIULIANI: — I'm institutionally insulting you because —

CUOMO: You're institutionally insulting me.

GIULIANI: — your coverage is horrendous.

CUOMO: All right, fine. Let me —

GIULIANI: It is so unfair, and it shocks —

CUOMO: — ask you this. If the —

GIULIANI: — me as a person who fought for justice all his life.

CUOMO: Well, let me tell you. It gets called into —

GIULIANI: It is shocking to me.

CUOMO: — question with what you've been doing as counsel in this particular case.

GIULIANI: What I've been doing as counsel —

CUOMO: Yes, that's right.

GIULIANI: — is represent my client in the best spirit and in the best way that I can do as a lawyer. And I vindicated him. And now, I am proving that what happened to him was a frame-up.

CUOMO: You didn't vindicate him.

GIULIANI: You’re d--- right I vindicated him.

CUOMO: You kept him out of — you kept him out of the chair.

GIULIANI: All you did — all you did was Russian collusion, Russian collusion, Russian collusion.

CUOMO: You kept him out of the chair with Mueller, and that was the best thing you did. And that was a great move.

GIULIANI: And you know what you're going to find out? It was Ukrainian collusion with Hillary Clinton —

CUOMO: Well, what we’re finding out right now —

GIULIANI: — that she paid $1.1 million for —

CUOMO: — is that an intel official —

GIULIANI: — and Joe Biden — and the Joe Biden family —

CUOMO: Fine. Let's —

GIULIANI: — has been selling his office —

CUOMO: — Look, you don’t want to give me the — the proof. That’s fine. When it comes out —

GIULIANI: I don't have to give you the proof.

CUOMO: — I'll cover it.

GIULIANI: Go read it.

CUOMO: I'm not saying you have to. It'd be nice —

GIULIANI: It's written in books.

CUOMO: — is all I'm saying.

GIULIANI: You just won’t read it. It’s all over the Internet.

CUOMO: You — you send —

GIULIANI: Go read it.

CUOMO: All over the Internet!

GIULIANI: I have the proof. I could —

CUOMO: You send me the affidavits you have of people who give sworn statements of what you said —

GIULIANI: I don’t even need affidavits. All I need is Joe Biden’s statement on television that he told the president of the Ukraine I’m going to hold back the $1.2 billion —

CUOMO: Right. And he said it had nothing to do —

GIULIANI: — I'm going to finish this sentience that I'm going to —

CUOMO: You said it five times. Say it again.

GIULIANI: — hold back the $1.2 billion if you don't fire the prosecutor. That is the crime of bribery —

CUOMO: Fine.

GIULIANI: — in every country in the world.

CUOMO: He doesn't agree with you.

GIULIANI: And then, if you want a motive for it, his son was under an investigation. And if he didn't notice his son was under investigation —

CUOMO: No. He said he had nothing — it had nothing to do with him.

GIULIANI: — then he is truly mentally ill.

CUOMO: Now, listen, Rudy, the —

GIULIANI: You don't think I would know my son was under investigation? You don't think when I took my son to China —

CUOMO: I'm saying that if you said that you did something —

GIULIANI: — and he came back with a billion dollars, I wouldn't know it?

CUOMO: — and it had nothing to do with your son. I'd have to have proof of otherwise. Now —

GIULIANI: How about circumstantial evidence?

CUOMO: Rudy, let me ask — can I — can I ask you —

GIULIANI: How about circumstantial evidence?

CUOMO: — one thing about the news today so that we can —

GIULIANI: Sure. Whatever you — whatever you — whatever you —

CUOMO: — get a little bit of — little bit of an understanding about national security considerations? Is that all right? Okay?


CUOMO: Thank you.

GIULIANI: The national security consideration you should be worried about —

CUOMO: Oh, here we go.

GIULIANI: — is how a compromised Ukraine —

CUOMO: Is that Joe Biden with his son and the thing, right.

GIULIANI: — how they — how they completely compromised Ukraine —

CUOMO: Right, now —

GIULIANI: — in 2016.

CUOMO: And here's what we —

GIULIANI: And used them as an arm of the Democratic National Committee.

CUOMO: Okay. I hear you. Whenever you want the proof to come out, and it comes out, and we can cover it, and I can see what you’re talking about —

GIULIANI: No, you won't. No, you won't. No, you won't.

CUOMO: All right. So, you —

GIULIANI: I — I have no confidence that you will.

CUOMO: — You won’t give — you won’t give —

GIULIANI: I used to think that six months ago.

CUOMO: I know. But and — and you won't give me the proof.

GIULIANI: I do not believe.

CUOMO: All right, fine.

GIULIANI: I believe your network will cover it up.

CUOMO: All right, all right.

GIULIANI: I believe your network will spin it —

CUOMO: Okay. Well we’ll see.

GIULIANI: — against us that we created it.

CUOMO: You — you won't give us the proof. But you think we'll spin it. I got you. So —

GIULIANI: I'm not going to give you the proof.

CUOMO: I know. I heard you five times.

GIULIANI: I'm going to give the proof to authorities.

CUOMO: Look, here's what I want to ask you.

GIULIANI: There's enough proof —

CUOMO: This —

GIULIANI: There's enough proof for you go after it.

CUOMO: All right, fine. This U.S.—

GIULIANI: If you are being honest and fair.

CUOMO: Okay. So, this U.S. intel official who worked in the White House says he hears something on a phone call, we believe, with the president of Ukraine. That’s what The Washington Post has, that troubled him. So, he formed the — he lodged the complaint with the inspector general.


CUOMO: Now, there's one legal fight going on between the I.G. and the DNI. That is what it is. But I want to ask you this. You say —

GIULIANI: Well, who — who is this guy? I have no idea who he is.

CUOMO: Well, neither do I.

GIULIANI: I'm here — I'm here on television telling you everything I did. This guy is hiding somewhere —

CUOMO: Well, whistleblowers —

GIULIANI: — and skulking around.

CUOMO: — whistleblowers deserve protection.

GIULIANI: And you —

CUOMO: We both know that. But—

GIULIANI: Yes. They do. And whistleblowers are liars, right?

CUOMO: Okay. But I’m just saying so —

GIULIANI: Little of both.

CUOMO: Well, it’d be nice. Look, if you’re not worried about anything — it’s interesting question.

GIULIANI: So why — how — how about we take a impartial position and we say this whistleblower could be telling the truth.

CUOMO: Yes, or he could be lying.

GIULIANI: Or this whistleblower could be a Democrat holdover.


GIULIANI: Who was trying to destroy —

CUOMO: And he could be lying.

GIULIANI: — Donald Trump.

CUOMO: And he could be destroying — he could try to be doing that. 100 percent.

GIULIANI: Like a lot of people have done.

CUOMO: A 100 percent. So, in your opinion, now —

GIULIANI: Like the stupid New York Times story the other day, right?

CUOMO: Now, listen, if —

GIULIANI: Did you cover that?

CUOMO: — if —

GIULIANI: How the Times really s----wed up the other day?

CUOMO: Listen, if the —

GIULIANI: Did you cover it?

CUOMO: — if the complaint had come out —

GIULIANI: You don't answer that.

CUOMO: Well, I’m trying to get a question out to you about this.

GIULIANI: Okay. Well, Chris, what — what do you —

CUOMO: Because this kind of matters to me.

GIULIANI: — what do you want to know?

CUOMO: I got to be honest, Okay?

GIULIANI: Okay. Well, try.

CUOMO: So, if — if the complaint goes to the I.G., we’ll both know what the law is, okay, the DNI and the I.G. have a disagreement about whether or not they’re supposed to get it. The DNI then says, reportedly, “There is someone above us that does not want this to be discovered — delivered to Congress.” If —

GIULIANI: I don't even know what you're talking about. There's somebody above us doesn't want to be delivered it to.

CUOMO: Above the DNI.

GIULIANI: What are we talking about?

CUOMO: I don't that —

GIULIANI: I don't know about this —

CUOMO: — that's why I'm asking you. Who —

GIULIANI: — conversation.

CUOMO: — what power in the executive branch above the DNI would not want this kind of complaint delivered to Congress?

GIULIANI: I have no — I have no idea why they — why they would or why they wouldn't. All I can tell you is if what is reported is true, it doesn't make a d---. It doesn't make any difference.

If the president of the United States said to the president of Ukraine: ‘Investigate the corruption in your country that has a bearing on our 2016 election,’ isn’t that what he’s supposed to do?

CUOMO: What if he said —

GIULIANI: That is what he’s supposed — unless you assume that the president’s guilty.

CUOMO: What if he said —

GIULIANI: As opposed to the fact that those people in the Ukraine were trying to frame the president —

CUOMO: What if he said —

GIULIANI: — which is exactly what they were doing.

CUOMO: What if he said I have $250 million —

GIULIANI: Oh, man!

CUOMO: — that you want.

GIULIANI: If he said that?

CUOMO: Why don't you investigate —

GIULIANI: Hold God! That would be really—

CUOMO: — what's happening with Joe Biden and what's happening and —

GIULIANI: Is it but you know —

CUOMO: — what you did to me in 2016.

GIULIANI: Isn't that —

CUOMO: And I'll give you the $250 million.

GIULIANI: Isn't that exactly what Joe Biden did and admitted on tape in —

CUOMO: So, you so —

GIULIANI: — in 2018.

CUOMO: — so if — so if the president said that —

GIULIANI: No, wait a second. Wait a second, Chris. Stop going.

CUOMO: — you think it was wrong?

GIULIANI: Can I — You asked me the question. You got to take the answer. You can’t cut — cut if off.

CUOMO: No. I don't have to take it. You can't run in an —


CUOMO: — opposite direction towards Joe Biden —

GIULIANI: No, I'm not running in an opposite direction.

CUOMO: — every time I ask you something about the instant case.

GIULIANI: I am — I am making a point, which I'm entitled to make, if you want to hear from me. If you don't want to hear from me, just cut me off. So, the —

CUOMO: No, I will never cut you off.

GIULIANI: — the fact is —

CUOMO: Go ahead.

GIULIANI: — the fact is what you’re saying to me is completely equivalent with what Joe Biden admitted on tape two years ago, and you didn’t cover, which is, ‘I told the president of the Ukraine, you’re not going to get your $1.2 billion, unless you fire the prosecutor.’

How come you didn't cover that? How come I wasn't called on here the night that that happened? Because you're not fair. You're not fair in your coverage.

CUOMO: Okay.

GIULIANI: Would you please recognize that? Now, I'll tell you about Trump, right?

CUOMO: Go ahead.

GIULIANI: I have — I have no knowledge that the president ever said anything. I don’t even know about the $250 million —

CUOMO: Okay.

GIULIANI: — in — in aid. I have no — no knowledge of that. I just know about me — various meetings —

CUOMO: When you're done —

GIULIANI: — they were going to have.

CUOMO: — I'll tell you why I'm asking.

GIULIANI: But the reality is that the president of the United States, well, whoever he is, has every right to tell the president of another country, you better straighten out the corruption in your country, if you want me to give you a lot of money, because if you are so d--- corrupt that you can’t investigate allegations of corruption —

CUOMO: That would be fine.

GIULIANI: — our money is going to get squandered.

CUOMO: That would be fine.

GIULIANI: And don't you think that's happened in the Ukraine under Yanukovych?

CUOMO: I think that there was a lot of corruption.

GIULIANI: You don't think all that money that Obama gave him was squandered?

CUOMO: I think there was a lot of corruption.

GIULIANI: Of course, it was. The guy was working for Russia —

CUOMO: All right, so —

GIULIANI: — while Joe — while Joe and Obama —

CUOMO: — here's why I ask you the question.

GIULIANI: — were giving him billions.

CUOMO: Here's why I ask you the question.

GIULIANI: But nobody covers that.

CUOMO: Here's why I ask you the question. So —


CUOMO: — the president has this conversation. There’s something in the conversation that’s troubling enough for someone to lodge a complaint under the whistleblower statute about it.

GIULIANI: Who knows who this person and what motive he has?

CUOMO: Okay. But just —

GIULIANI: Half the people in the government —

CUOMO: Hey, Rudy, we covered that.

GIULIANI: — half the people in the —

CUOMO: I'm — I'm trying to tell you my premise for the question.

GIULIANI: You don’t think there’s a deep state?

CUOMO: Listen.

GIULIANI: Of course, there is.

CUOMO: I think there’s a little bit of a “deep state” going on —

GIULIANI: I know it. I've confronted it.

CUOMO: — right in this conversation right now. What I'm trying to say is —

GIULIANI: I’m a deep state? I’m totally transparent, Chris.

CUOMO: — after Adam Schiff —

GIULIANI: I go on television. I answer the questions.

CUOMO: — after — well, not so great tonight.

GIULIANI: I don't lodge anonymous —

CUOMO: I got to be honest.

GIULIANI: — I don't lodge anonymous complaints.

CUOMO: You know, you've been very insulting. You've been very circumspect —

GIULIANI: Yes, I'm very, Chris —

CUOMO: — and very distracting.

GIULIANI: — I'm very insulting directly to your face.


GIULIANI: Not behind your back.

CUOMO: Well, yes.

GIULIANI: And I don't do anonymous sources or let me skulk around and scoot somebody up.

CUOMO: No, I know. But it's also not very fair what you're saying.

GIULIANI: If I don't like —

CUOMO: But let me get back to what matters.

GIULIANI: If I don't like what you're doing, I'd tell you.

CUOMO: I understand.

GIULIANI: And I think your network is corrupt —

CUOMO: I know. I heard you the first five times.

GIULIANI: — in the way they cover —

CUOMO: And yet, here I am, giving 20-plus —

GIULIANI: — the way they cover the president.

CUOMO: — minutes to the president’s lawyer to make the case —

GIULIANI: Yes, you're —

CUOMO: — on national television.


CUOMO: Hmm! Boy, do I hide the ball?

GIULIANI: Go cover — go cover Biden's bribery —

CUOMO: So, look, one — one sticky —

GIULIANI: — in Ukraine. Go cover him taking —

CUOMO: — wicket at a time.

GIULIANI: —$1.5 billion out of China.

CUOMO: Let me ask you —

GIULIANI: And then I'll respect you again.

CUOMO: — this question because I want your —

GIULIANI: Then I'll respect you again.

CUOMO: — lawyer’s mind. Listen, if I — if — listen —

GIULIANI: Not just you.

CUOMO: You respect —

GIULIANI: Your network.

CUOMO: You respect — no, no, you keep saying it.

GIULIANI: It's in the tank.

CUOMO: So let's — let's — deal with me. You say whatever you want.

GIULIANI: I am dealing with you.

CUOMO: You respect me. You don't respect me. That's on you.

GIULIANI: I don't respect the way you're covering the fact —

CUOMO: I live my life. I do my job the way I think.

GIULIANI: — that there was a —

CUOMO: Fine.

GIULIANI: — massive —


GIULIANI: — there was a massive scandal involving Joe Biden.

CUOMO: I hear it. I've let you say it 10 times.

GIULIANI: In the billions of dollars.

CUOMO: I've heard it.

GIULIANI: And you are not covering it.

CUOMO: I know. But you are also you are doing everything you can to spin away from what I'm trying to ask you about.

GIULIANI: I am not. The president did nothing wrong.

CUOMO: You said you know nothing about anything.

GIULIANI: Zero. Wrong.

CUOMO: The president, who’s your client —

GIULIANI: He did nothing wrong.

CUOMO: — knew nothing about what you were doing for him in the Ukraine.

GIULIANI: He did what a president — what an honest —

CUOMO: He only knew after.

GIULIANI: — decent president should do.

CUOMO: Very convenient. So then, this is what I want to ask you about.

He has this conversation. The person gets upset and files the complaint. After Adam Schiff sends the letter, to the DNI, saying I want that complaint, the $250 million is released to the Ukraine that had been held back all this time.

GIULIANI: I don't know anything about that except for the fact that if Adam Schiff sent me a letter, I would just tear it up, and throw it in the garbage.

CUOMO: Yes, yes, yes, of course, of course. Why did they release the money right after Adam Schiff?

GIULIANI: I — I don't know. I have no idea. I don't —

CUOMO: You don't think that's co —

GIULIANI: — I don't run the government.

CUOMO: Listen, you're spinning things together at a whole cloth.

GIULIANI: I'm not spinning anything, Chris.

CUOMO: Now, you're not curious about that.

GIULIANI: I'm not serious about what?

CUOMO: You’re not curious about the $250 million getting —

GIULIANI: Okay. You want to talk hypothetically?

CUOMO: — getting released only after —

GIULIANI: I can only talk hypothetically about it.

CUOMO: — there are questions about what was said to the president of Ukraine.

GIULIANI: If the president of the United States said to the president of any country, I have — I am not going to give you money because your country is corrupt. You got to straighten out these problems.

CUOMO: We don't know that that's what he said.

GIULIANI: Well, I don’t know what he said either.

CUOMO: And — and — and but why would that upset —

GIULIANI: We don't know what he said because —

CUOMO: — an intel official. Why would an intel official —

GIULIANI: — we're having a — you and I are talking about —

CUOMO: — get upset by that?

GIULIANI: — an anonymous informant.

CUOMO: That's right.

GIULIANI: We have no idea if he's credible or not. And you're making a big deal out of it because —

CUOMO: Well — well —

GIULIANI: — you want to make a big deal.

CUOMO: — we don't know nothing.

GIULIANI: Wait, wait. D---it.

CUOMO: The inspector general —

GIULIANI: Let me finish.

CUOMO: No, I got — I got to cut you. You've been talking the whole time.

GIULIANI: No. You can't cut me off.

CUOMO: The inspector general —

GIULIANI: This isn't —

CUOMO: — knew enough about —

GIULIANI: You only cut me off because this is —

CUOMO: — what was said —

GIULIANI: — this is a program with an agenda as opposed doing a program —

CUOMO: Listen, the agenda is to get some truth —

GIULIANI: — that wanted to cover the truth.

CUOMO: — and not spin. The inspector general assessed the whistleblower complaint. They found it urgent enough to want to go to the DNI —

GIULIANI: But they don't know all —

CUOMO: — and under the statute.

GIULIANI: The only thing the inspector general can do is look at the — look at what the person says, and say we have to investigate it. He has no idea if the person is honest, dishonest or crazy.

CUOMO: Really? You don't think part of what the I.G. is doing is assessing the credibility of the person who comes forward with the complaint?

GIULIANI: 100 percent, they have no idea how to do that.

CUOMO: What do you mean he doesn't know how to do that?

GIULIANI: No idea how to do it.

CUOMO: How could you say that?

GIULIANI: And, by the way, it is perfectly appropriate for a president to say to a leader of a foreign country, investigate this massive bribe —

CUOMO: I know. But if it was in general —

GIULIANI: — that was paid by a former vice president —

CUOMO: — and it was specific, and it was quid pro quo —

GIULIANI: — that our media in America is covering up.

CUOMO: — that would be troubling and then the money got released right after Adam Schiff asked for the complaint. That's what I wanted to ask you about.

GIULIANI: All right, so you got to ask somebody else about that.

CUOMO: I appreciate your take on it.

GIULIANI: I don’t know the —

CUOMO: I will.

GIULIANI: — I don't know the answer to why it was released. But I find nothing wrong in what he did. I find a lot wrong —

CUOMO: You don't even know what he did.

GIULIANI: — I find a lot wrong in what you are covering up.

CUOMO: Believe me, I'm well aware.

GIULIANI: And what you continue to cover up, and what your network continues to cover up —

CUOMO: And I'm telling you, you give me proof —

GIULIANI: — which you'll make what —

CUOMO: — of what you found.

GIULIANI: I have proof.

CUOMO: I will vet it and put it — give it to me.

GIULIANI: Go look — go look at Joe Biden —

CUOMO: I did. Everybody has heard that video.

GIULIANI: — January of 2018 admitting —

CUOMO: It's not a new story.

GIULIANI: — bribery, 100 percent.

CUOMO: He does not admit bribery —

GIULIANI: Go look.

CUOMO: — a 100 percent because he says —

GIULIANI: Go look.

CUOMO: — there — there was no quid pro quo. He wasn't doing it for his son.

GIULIANI: He didn't say that. He didn't say that.

CUOMO: He said I'm not doing it for my son.

GIULIANI: He left his son out of the conversation. He just said I told the president of the Ukraine —

CUOMO: When he's been asked about this, he said, I did nothing for my son and the timing —

GIULIANI: A year later.

CUOMO: — doesn't match up.

GIULIANI: A year later.

CUOMO: That's when he was asked.

GIULIANI: And he said, “I didn’t know my son was under investigation.”

CUOMO: All right, Rudy, look —

GIULIANI: Garbage!

CUOMO: — no matter — no matter what I hear tonight after this interview —

GIULIANI: Completely not true. And you are —

CUOMO: — I won't —

GIULIANI: — you are now —

CUOMO: Yes, what am I now?

GIULIANI: — engaging in all kinds of fantasies —

CUOMO: What am I — What am I now?

GIULIANI: — about the president when there’s clear proof about a Democrat, and you can’t handle it.

CUOMO: What?

GIULIANI: And how about we go to China when he flew his son there on Air Force Two —

CUOMO: Listen, Rudy —

GIULIANI: — and eight days later, the son —

CUOMO: — I don't know what any of this has to do —

GIULIANI: — got 1.2 —

CUOMO: — with what I've been asking you about tonight.

GIULIANI: What it has to do with —

CUOMO: I got to be honest.

GIULIANI: — how unfair you are. Do you get that?

CUOMO: It's unfair for me to not —

GIULIANI: It's unfair.

CUOMO: — want to tolerate you talking about Joe Biden all night long when we have an inspector general, fighting with the DNI, fighting with Congress, over a whistleblower complaint that involves this president —

GIULIANI: So, we have an anonymous whistleblower compliant —

CUOMO: — and you and what you've been doing playing with Ukraine.

GIULIANI: — we have an anonymous whistleblower compliant compared to clear proof —

CUOMO: All right, I got to go, Rudy.

GIULIANI: — that Biden's son got $1.5 billion from China. And you won't cover it. Tell me you're not unfair.

CUOMO: Rudy, I told you. Give me the proof.

GIULIANI: Nobody — nobody buys that, Chris.

CUOMO: But I'm — I'm sure they buy —

GIULIANI: That's why your network has no ratings.

CUOMO: — I'm sure they buy that —

GIULIANI: They buy the fact that you are in the tank —

CUOMO: — everything you are saying right now has nothing to do with —

GIULIANI: — of the Democratic Party.

CUOMO: — distracting from what this president’s problems —

GIULIANI: I am not distracting.

CUOMO: — might be.

GIULIANI: What I am pointing out —

CUOMO: You’ve been doing it for over a year and a half, okay?

GIULIANI: I haven't been doing that.

CUOMO: The hell you haven't.

GIULIANI: What I've been doing is pointing out how unfair you are —

CUOMO: You've been distracting from the truth —

GIULIANI: — and how you tried to frame the president.

CUOMO: — for a year and a half, and I hope you enjoy it.

GIULIANI: And you're doing it again.

CUOMO: Because this president got the benefit of something you built up for decades, your credibility, and you put it on the line for him.

GIULIANI: I'll put my credibility on the line —

CUOMO: Good choice.

GIULIANI: — 1,000 percent. And I think your network is a horror to this country.

CUOMO: That's fine.

GIULIANI: You are undermining —

CUOMO: That's — and I — yet I still have you on.

GIULIANI: — you are undermining fairness and justice in this country.

CUOMO: And yet, I still had you on.

GIULIANI: When a vice president —

CUOMO: I'm so unfair that I had you on.

GIULIANI: — of the United States can come out of China eight days later —

CUOMO: And I've had you say that a dozen times —

GIULIANI: — with $1.5 billion, and you won't cover it.

CUOMO: — on my air. And I've asked you for proof.

GIULIANI: Tell me you're not corrupt.

CUOMO: And I have you on anyway —

GIULIANI: I have proof.

CUOMO: — even with all this trash coming out of out.

GIULIANI: There is proof. The proof has been there for two years.

CUOMO: All right.

GIULIANI: And you're covering it up. And the proof of his bribery —

CUOMO: I got you. Rudy, send the proof whenever you want.

GIULIANI: — is from his own mouth. And you're covering it up.

CUOMO: I hear up.

GIULIANI: And you covered up so much more about Hillary.

CUOMO: I'm covering it up so much —

GIULIANI: It’s disgusting.

CUOMO: — that I've kept this interview going 28 minutes, and let you say it a dozen times.

GIULIANI: Yes, and interrupted me 500 times.

CUOMO: That's how afraid of it I am.

GIULIANI: To try to stop me from —

CUOMO: Well, you’ve made two points.

GIULIANI: — telling the American people —

CUOMO: You've made two points.

GIULIANI: — what's actually going on —

CUOMO: You've made two points.

GIULIANI: — so you can continue to mislead them —

CUOMO: All right.

GIULIANI: — which is what you're doing.

CUOMO: Well, you’ve been here the whole time, so you’re part of it now. You’re co-conspirator.

GIULIANI: I'm not part of misleading.

CUOMO: Rudy Giuliani —

GIULIANI: Everything I said, I can document.

CUOMO: — Thank you — give it to me.

GIULIANI: Every single thing I said I can document.

CUOMO: Then give me the documents. Thank you.

GIULIANI: I'm not going to give you the documents. Why would I give you the documents?

CUOMO: Because you want the truth to come out.

GIULIANI: You're not going to use them for a good purpose.

CUOMO: You're not making any sense to me on this point.

GIULIANI: If I trusted you — of course I'm making sense.

CUOMO: All right, now you don't trust me either. All right, Rudy Giuliani —

GIULIANI: Why would I give the enemy the documents?

CUOMO: Oh, now I’m the enemy?

GIULIANI: You are not fair.

CUOMO: Now I'm the enemy?

GIULIANI: You are not impartial.

CUOMO: Great!

GIULIANI: You are totally biased.

CUOMO: Rudy, anything else?

GIULIANI: And your network is the creature of the Democratic National Committee.

CUOMO: Okay. Rudy Giuliani, I appreciate your take, as always.

GIULIANI: And you should be embarrassed —

CUOMO: All right, I'm the one who should be embarrassed?

GIULIANI: — to be on that network.

CUOMO: Okay, Rudy.

GIULIANI: Absolutely.

CUOMO: I'm — I'm embarrassed.

GIULIANI: Man, the CNN is a disgrace.

CUOMO: I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed, for you. Have a good night.

GIULIANI: Well, you shouldn’t be embarrassed for me. That’s garbage.

CUOMO: Have a good night.

GIULIANI: Don't be embarrassed for me.

CUOMO: Somebody needs to.

GIULIANI: I'm worried about you.

CUOMO: Because you're not aware of what you're doing.

GIULIANI: And your integrity.

CUOMO: Good night.

GIULIANI: Of course, I'm aware of what I'm saying.

CUOMO: Good night. Have a good night.

GIULIANI: Well you — you shouldn’t have a good night because what you’re doing is very bad for the country.

CUOMO: Rudy, all right, I got to go, all right? With respect —

GIULIANI: Yes, well go.

CUOMO: — I’ve got to go.