Outlook: Interview with Accused Soldier

"I came over here to kill people." The gangly 21-year-old soldier spoke the words with casual indifference. "The truth is, it wasn't what I thought it was cracked up to be. I mean, I thought killing somebody would be this life-changing experience. And then I did it, and I was like, 'All right, whatever.'" Stars and Stripes reporter Andrew Tilghman took the words down in his notebook when he visited the soldier's base in Mahmudiyah in February, but didn't think them abnormal at the time. But the soldier's name was Steven D. Green . A few months later, he picked up a newspaper and saw the same soldier's photo on the front page. Dressed in civilian clothes, the young man was standing outside a federal courthouse in handcuffs, charged with the rape and murder of an Iraqi girl and the slaying of her family. Suddenly, Tilghman had to reconsider everything he had thought about Green -- and what constitutes normality in a time and place of war.

Andrew Tilghman was online Monday, July 31, at noon ET to discuss his Sunday Outlook article, "I came over here because I wanted to kill people." , ( Post, July 30, 2006 ).

The transcript follows.

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Washington, D.C.: Excellent article...left me wondering, did you happen to meet to any of the other soldiers who have been charged with Green? Did you get a sense of what they were like as well? (Barker, Howard, Spielman?) Green didn't strike me as a leader per se, so I wondered if these other soldiers struck you as followers or if they seemed adversely affected by their combat experience, etc.?

Andrew Tilghman: As I look back on my notes, I realize that I did meet one other soldier who was charged in this incident, but I do not recall him as clearly as I do Steven Green.

I think that many of the troops I met in Steven Green's unit were affected by their combat experiences, each in their own way. The signs and symptoms of that are as individual as the soldiers themselves. Some say they have trouble sleeping at night. Some get startled when they hear a freezer door slam. I met one kid (in a different unit, in Falluja) who started talking about his mother and began to cry.

Interestingly, Steven Green did not appear to show these sorts signs of combat stress -- the most striking thing about him was his eagerness to share his thoughts and experiences with me in a way that I think he felt was cathartic.

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New York, N.Y.: During WWII there were rapes, murder, fragging, and desertion -- obviously, on a miniscule scale, as to almost not eve register percentage wise against the military as a whole. Since we can find these mixed-up, or crazy, or even monstrous youths serving our military in every war going back 230 years, why should this story be front page news? Yes, I am suggesting burying this story! Why? Because the avg. American reader cannot read between the lines and realize that this is a tiny fraction of a fraction of our servicemen. Why trumpet such ugly and unfortunate events when the positive stories about our soldiers and the war are so sparse?

Andrew Tilghman: I appreciate your thoughts and I understand your frustration with the nature of "news" (There is an old saying: It's not news when the plane lands safely).

However, I think you underestimate the sophistication of the "average American reader" whom I do believe understands that Steven Green is just one of hundreds of thousands of troops who have served in Iraq.

And I think it would be a disservice to the profoundly intense experience that many soldiers have in Iraq to portray it in a two-dimensional way, or to "bury" the darker and more unsettling stories that emerge from a war.

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Ardwick, Md.: Wow. This made my blood run cold, and I am a veteran of both Vietnam and the first Gulf War. This is exactly the kind of person you do NOT want on the front lines, although after extensive service some simply can't avoid it. But for a 21 year old to have this view simply scares me silly. I'll bet he would have morphed into a stateside serial killer had he not wound up in the military.

Andrew Tilghman: That is a very interesting question: Would Steven Green have been accused of such a crime if he had stayed home in Texas and never joined the Army? I don't pretend to have any expertise on that question, but it is an important one, I think.

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Washington, D.C.: what made you want to go to Iraq with Stars and Stripes?

Andrew Tilghman: I wanted to go to Iraq because I felt it was an extremely important story. I wanted to work for Stars and Stripes because it allowed me to focus on the story of Iraq from the perspective of the American Troops. Admittedly, this is one perspective, but an important one, I think.

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Chicago, Ill.: If the charges against Green and the other soldiers are true ... do you think they should be given some leniency because of where they were serving in Iraq and what they were doing? I have heard that the Sunni Triangle is the most dangerous place in Iraq, would you agree?

Andrew Tilghman: The area where Steven Green was one of the most dangerous in Iraq. I don't think that the judicial system should grant any leniency in a situation like this, but I think that readers can consider this alleged crime in a different light than a crime allegedly committed at home.

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New York, N.Y.: When Green was telling you that this war was not like other wars fought by the U.S., what do you think he meant? What were the soldier's general feeling about the war in terms of whether they thought it was the right thing to do, do they see a light at the end of the tunnel etc?

Thank you.

Andrew Tilghman: In my experience, soldiers' feelings about the war are as varied as the American population at large.

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Oakland, Calif.: Do you think Mr. Green was saying he wanted to commit murder, or do you think it is possible Green was speaking bravado and/or trying to deal with the psychological issues of losing his friends, having to kill people etc? Thanks!

Andrew Tilghman: I did not hear Steven Green saying that he wanted to commit murder. I have no crystal ball and had no way of knowing what he would later be accused of. The reason I may not have found it so striking is because I met a lot of soldiers who talked about really liking the adrenalin rush of firefights and combat. There are some who like being tested in such an extreme way. That is what I guess I thought Steven Green was saying, although in a very flippant way.

Hindsight is always more illuminating.

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Washington, D.C.: It strikes me that Pfc. Green fits the mold of a sociopath. He does not seem to have a conscience. If he would have not been charged with the rape and murder of the Iraqi girl, I wonder if he would have evolved into a serial killer in the U.S. or would he have just turned into some "strange man in the old house".

My question is "do you think the Army lowered their mental standards in order to satisfy their needs in order to let Green in a combat situation?"

Andrew Tilghman: I am not an expert in the Army recruiting process. But I have read that there has been an increase in the number of waivers that are granted to potential recruits, ones that allow soldiers to join who may previously have not been accepted.

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McLean, Va.: Mr. Tilghman, did your decision not to use any of Pfc. Green's statements in your original article have anything to do with the fact that you were writing for the military's newspaper? (I'm referring to self-censorship, in an effort to keep morale up, etc.) Do you in any way feel responsible for Pfc Green's later actions because you did not report on his statements? (I don't consider you responsible, but am curious as to your own feelings.) Thank you for this insight into the military that is rarely seen.

Andrew Tilghman: I did not feel any level of self-censorship. However, my readers at Stars and Stripes were very unique. My readers were the guys eating in the KBR-run show halls of Iraq, and the fact that some soldiers have a low moral is not really news to them.

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Seattle, Wash.: After you interviewed Green ... did you walk away saying "this guy is a socio-path" or the like, or not? Your article states that his comments seemed to be a "reasonable thing to say" given the place and circumstances? Do you think he expressed thoughts consistent with others over there?

Andrew Tilghman: My conversations with Green all involved other soldiers as well, and many sort of nodded in agreement. Although they did not use the same language, I felt there were other soldiers who shared some of his sentiments, particularly about the war at large.

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Washington, D.C.: Why should the crime of murders and rape be judged differently because it occurred in the Sunni Triangle? What crime did six year old Hadeel do to deserve execution? What crime did 14 year old Abeer commit to suffer gang rape, witnessing the murder of her parents and her baby sister, and then being executed herself and set afire? What crime did her parents do? What crime did the two newly orphaned sons of Qasim and Fatima (parents of Abeer and Hadeel) commit to come home and see the dead bodies of their parents and sisters? War does not justify these atrocities.

Andrew Tilghman: I agree. As I said in the Post yesterday, no amount of combat stress excuses an alleged crime such as this.

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Miami, Fla.: Green's description of how Sgt. Casica died in his arms seems like a pretty traumatic event. Did it appear to you that affected him a great deal? Did other soldiers talk about that death? Was that one of the moving stories of a friend'/soldier's death you heard? Do you know how (or if) the Army helped Green and others deal with things like that?

Andrew Tilghman: Green said "that was the worst time since I've been in Iraq" and that experience of watching his sgt. die did seem to have affected him.

Many soldiers with his unit have similar stories. In fact, I wrote a profile at the time of firefight in which a young soldier died. It was a separate incident from another platoon in Green's company.

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Alexandria, Va.: Do you have any information as to what was behind this "personality disorder" discharge? There must have been incidents of misbehavior that led to it; and if so, why would it have been an -honorable- discharge? I don't get it. If "personality disorder" is perhaps a euphemism for obnoxious dangerous nut, why would the military have let him go "honorably" only to be unleashed on civilian communities back home?

Andrew Tilghman: I am not aware of the details of Green's honorable discharge from the Army.

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Arlington, Va.: You mentioned that you didn't feel at the time that his comments should be included in your story. Did you use any quotes from Green? If so, what were they if you recall? It seems like his comments came across as sort of a coping mechanism, whereas in reality they showed how calloused he had become.

Andrew Tilghman: No, I did not use any of Steven Green's comments in any stories I wrote at the time. You are right, his comments did come across in a way that seemed like he was speaking about this as a form of a coping mechanism. He was eager to talk about these things and share his thoughts. It did not come across as bravado.

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Silver Spring, Md.: I know you don't know what motivated Green, but I'm wondering, how did it strike you when he was telling you killing people was not as big a deal as he'd thought. I believe his quotes was, "...and then I did it, and I was like, 'All right, whatever." Did any flags go off in your mind like, this kid isn't all there. Or did you just think it was an appropriate response given the war?

Andrew Tilghman: A lot of young soldiers in Iraq told me a lot of crazy things during my 9-month stay there. I can't say that what Steven Green told me in February was the most disturbing thing I'd heard.

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Bethesda, Md.: From what you saw, do you believe that upon their return to the states, we may have many young men and women afflicted with the same mental anguish (shellshock, PTSD, etc.) experienced by many soldiers after their return from Vietnam?

Andrew Tilghman: I met many soldiers and marines who were on their 2nd and 3rd deployments and many spoke to me about have problems at home -- problems ranging from sleeping thru the night to problems with their marriage. In many cases, it's a question of degrees.

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Washington, D.C.: A couple follow-up questions:

1. What was the most disturbing thing you heard in speaking with the soldiers?

2. Is there any sort of counseling for soldiers if they witness the death of another?

Andrew Tilghman: There is grief counseling that is available to soldiers who experience traumatic events. But in the vast majority of cases, these soldiers are expected to go back out and patrol the same streets just days after these traumatic events occur.

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Arlington, Va.: In your article, you mention that you saw Green's bloodthirsty remarks about killing as "a rare example of honesty" from the troops with whom you were embedded. Are you saying that you believe that most soldiers are sociopathic killers at heart, but that some simply hide it better than others?

Andrew Tilghman: No, that is not what I meant. I do believe that many soldiers are trained to NOT speak candidly to reporters about a whole range of issues. And in many other cases, young men simply don't like speaking to a "stranger" about such personal thoughts and feelings. Therefore, as a reporter, I am always wondering what level of candor a soldier is sharing with me.

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Alexandria, Va.: "I can't say that what Steven Green told me in February was the most disturbing thing I'd heard." -- OK, what was the most disturbing thing you heard? I'm paying for this war and I feel I have a right to know.

Andrew Tilghman: Some of the most disturbing things I heard were not just personal stories from young soldiers but instead came from thoughtful officers criticizing strategic aspects of the war.

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Dallas, Tex.: I noted that one of the victims in the case is a small child (4 to 5 years old), which is obviously a horrible allegation. I've read things like children being used to get candy from soldiers etc., to lure them to put there guns down and then they get shot, or that kids might even handle weapons or throw grenades at U.S. soldiers etc. Similarly, I've read that one of the biggest stresses the soldiers face (like in Vietnam) is that they can't tell who the enemy is because of the guerilla type warfare they face. Did you ever hear of things like this?

Andrew Tilghman: yes

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Silver Spring, Md.: Of course it is terrible that someone raped and killed a girl and her family. Does the situation differ much as the My Lai killings of Vietnam? Lt. Calley did not serve much, if any, time for his crime of being a leader of the killers. Do you see the comparison being made in court?

Andrew Tilghman: I think each war and each war crime is unique and I'm reluctant to make a lot of comparisons that span 40 years.

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Andrew Tilghman: I want to thank all of you for taking the time to read this story in the Post and taking the time to log on for this discussion. If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free to contact me at my email address: andrewtilghman1@yahoo.com.

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