Russian Authorities Investigate Spy's Death

Sarah Mendelson, senior fellow at the Russia and Eurasia Program of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, was online Friday, Dec. 8 at 1:15 p.m. ET to discuss the investigation into the death of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko. The Kremlin has denied accusations that it murdered the outspoken critic, who was investigating the October shooting death of journalist Anna Politkovskaya. Russian and British authorities are both involved in the increasingly complicated case, questioning witnesses who met with Litvinenko before his death. Dmitry Kovtun, who met with him Nov. 1, has also been hospitalized.

The transcript follows.

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Chevy Chase, Md.: Do you think critics that say Russia is becoming increasingly more like the old Soviet Union have validity?

Sarah Mendelson: In Russia today, we see a lot of legacies from the Soviet era that have gone unchecked, and that is cause for concern. Specifically, we see a tendency to want a strong leader, we see more rule of man than rule of law, we see a lack of tolerance and growing xenophobia, and a tolerance for corruption. Russia today is different than the Soviet Union, but whatever small steps toward democracy made in the 1990s have mostly been negated. The 1990s brought a lot of chaos and poverty for some, but it also saw independent media, development of NGOs, political parties, elections and other institutions we associate with democracy.

Sadly, the lack of addressing the legacies from the past is something that a lot of us skipped over. In a survey I conducted with Ted Gerber from the Univ of Wisconsin and with the Levada Analytic Center in 2005, we found 56% of young Russians thought Stalin did more good than bad. How do we talk about a modern Russia, a Russia that is firmly part of the Euro-Atlantic community, if even the young people think this? So, not the Soviet Union, but we do see the rise of illiberal nationalists and this is cause for real concern.

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Washington, D.C.: Any comment about Litvinenko's conversion to Islam on his death bed? What message does that send to all us?

Sarah Mendelson: There are conflicting reports on this; it seems he did convert but it also seems that he was quite ill at the time. It is of course an intensely personal issue and difficult to speculate what is going through the mind of a person who may or may not know he is dying. But it would be important for us to know more about his relation to Islam before he fell ill. Was he thinking of doing this before? Perhaps only his family knows. I am reluctant to read a larger political statement into this as your question suggests. The world becomes quite small when one is nearing the end and making a political statement seems to me far from anyone's intention.

Perhaps the hospital in London can shed some light on this at some point. It would be important to know what his medical condition was at the exact time this occurred.

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Sarasota, Fla.: It's obvious that this was an assassination, but do you think the clumsy incompetence of it was intended?

Sarah Mendelson: The UK police have called it a murder. For now, since the facts are relatively murky, and there is so much speculation surrounding it all, I would like to treat your question also as speculative.

I have heard some argue that the clumsiness was intentional. This is suggested in the Wash Post op-ed today in fact.

But we have also seen an assassination by Russian agents of the Chechen Yanderbiev in Qatar in I believe 2004 which was also quite clumsy -- in the sense that the agents rented a car in Qatar and used their actual names apparently, allowing local officials to track them down and tie them to the explosion that killed Yanderbiev. So on the one hand, it does seem one would not like a covert operation to be done this way. On the other hand, we have seen some clumsy operations that were presumably meant to be covert.

I would add just that there are so many dots that need to be connected that we should really pause before making any definitive statements. In fact, sometimes it feels to me that we think we know a "dot" and in fact it is not one. This may be one of the great unsolved mysteries.

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Melbourne, Australia: Killing someone by radioactively poisoning them isn't subtle. Why would whoever killed Litvinenko murder him in such a high profile way, thereby drawing the attention of the world and prompting the British government to investigate? What ramifications will this investigation have on British and Russian relations?

Sarah Mendelson: Quickly on your questions and then some commentary: perhaps a dramatic murder sends messages? Perhaps it will have a chilling effect? In terms of the specific effects on UK-Russian relationship, there is little that one can see that will be positive. In early 2006, the Russians accused the British government of double hatting a development expert as a spy - someone who was in charge of grants to very reputable human rights organizations. And the relationship has already been strained because high profile Chechens have gained political asylum (through the courts) in the UK and the Russians would like these people extradited. We are likely to see more strain. Some of the best intelligence and police work in the world (Mi5 and Scotland Yard) are running an investigation in a place where rule of man rules. And where the local government, that is Russia, is not clear to help out.

And let's remember: There have been a number of high profile unsolved murders in the last few years. You are right that the world seems to focus on these things for a while and then moves on. We saw this with the murders of over 300 children and their parents in Beslan. Attention of the world public to any issue is short lived.

So we need to keep in mind the issues that Litvinenko was alleged to have been working on (Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya's murder) and the fact that he had in writing accused the Russian government of purposely blowing up apartment buildings in Russia in 1999 where some other 300 people were killed in their sleep - something that the Russian government blamed on Chechens and used as a reason to begin the second war there in October 1999. Note then, that the crime scenes were cleared within days of the explosions - making it hard for both the Russian government and for Litvinenko to have hard evidence of who did this.

But the attention of the world in some ways seems riveted because of the James Bond aspects - former spy poisoned in London with many possible motives for killing him. There is something almost mythic or epic about it. But he was connected to very real, tragic events in Russia and it is important to remember them.

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Houston, Tex.: If this is acceptable trade craft, shouldn't we reexamine our casting of Russia as an ally?

Sarah Mendelson: We should reexamine our casting of Russia as an ally based on an established record of undermining the rule of law. We should be very focused on how the Russian government has handled dissent and the prevalence of torture and abuse. We don't need murders in London to rethink the relationship.

In fact, before this murder, there was some discussion within the US government at various levels about the relationship. Russian actions on a range of issues have made this alliance very difficult.

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Chevy Chase, Md.: Is it true that Litvinenko was never actually a spy?

Sarah Mendelson: I do not believe this is true. Everything I have seen and read suggests he was indeed working for the FSB. He accused his employer of corruption and that brought on several problems for him.

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College Park, Md.: What exactly should the U.S. be doing to bring about greater freedom, democracy, and liberalization in Russia?

Sarah Mendelson: Very hard and important question.

First, we as a nation must be compliant with various human rights norms and laws ourselves. We need to restore our own inspirational powers, if you will.

Second, on a very practical level, the USG along with European states and private donors can do a great deal to support Russian human rights defenders. In surveys I have overseen we found the Russian public was in fact supportive of foreign assistance for 1. health issues,; 2. environmental issues and 3. human rights. So we should not shy away from supporting those who are speaking in favor of rights or actually working. We can support efforts at strategic litigation in international courts, such as the European Court of Human Rights of which Russia is a part.

Instead, the USG appears to be cutting budgets for democracy and human rights in Russia in the next fiscal year. This is not a good policy. This should be reversed.

The US and Europe should also be much better coordinated on our efforts, and we should draw in fact on survey data about how Russians think about many of these issues to try and help make the lives of Russians better. These should not been seen as foreign concepts - but things that Russians want. For example, 94% of Russians want the prosecution of officers who tolerate hazing. This is a fundamental right - not to be tortured. Let's help those who are working on this issue inside Russia.

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Savannah, Ga.: Now you refer to Litvinenko as a former spy. It would seem that his background in Russia would be particularly relevant to sorting out who might have killed him. I'm sure MI5 and Scotland Yard are looking into it. Once again: For which Russian intelligence agency did Litvinenko work and how senior was he?

Sarah Mendelson: The FSB. I don't know what his rank was.

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Arlington, Va.. Before we judge Russia's youth for their generous assessment of Stalin, let's remember that it was during his reign that Russia/USSR emerged from a second-rate, semi-industrial backwater to become a global superpower that was able to fight off the most advanced European state basically on its own devices. Of course he had he committed terrible crimes. But don't we in the US have "generally positive" views of political leaders who promoted the slave trade, conducted genocidal policies against American Indians, opened fire on striking workers, interred Japanese-American citizens.

Sarah Mendelson: Every country has a contentious past and every country needs to examine its past. In our country our democracy has been strengthened when we have begun to deal with these legacies. True for South Africa, for Chile, for Argentina.

In Russia, I am talking about teaching critical history texts in schools about the GULAG, about the millions who perished, about a system that swallowed its own and used them as slave labor. This is a critical aspect of the Soviet and Stalinist past that needs to be addressed. Instead, Putin has overseen a state educational agency that has censored texts on the past.

So in short, because we have not addressed our own past fully, does not mean we should advocate others bury their pasts - especially when our pasts are shared as in WWII. I think this issue of historical legacy and social development will be increasingly seen as important. In legal circles it already is: that is what the transitional justice movement is about. Truth and reconciliation.

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Germantown, Md.: Will the U.S. and U.K. governments have enough courage to take a moral stand and point out to Putin that his authoritarian rule (no direct elections, etc.) is unacceptable? Corruption and murder are results of that. And then freeze secret Swiss bank accounts of his cronies. Is this realistic?

Sarah Mendelson: Not clear. There have been many times when the international community has barely responded to evidence of crimes against humanity (see the HRW report from March 2005 on Chechnya and the lack of international response). Alas, I see this as evidence of ambivalence about human rights.

But your point is important: there is some international leverage and it is access to the green stuff. Russians do want access to bank accounts overseas.

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Woodbridge, Va.: Does the illness of Dmitry Kovtun appear to be from secondary exposure to radiation? Is it suspected that he was deliberately poisoned, as well? Or, more likely, is it too soon to tell?

Sarah Mendelson: Too soon to tell. Was he delivering the poison and was himself poisoned? was he the murdered because he knows something? too soon to tell.

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Arlington, Va.: What people seem not to pay attention to is the fact that radioactive substance got into the wrong/right hands. I thought U.S. and Russia had agreements under the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons/cooperative threat reduction that established joint controls over the safety on nuclear equipment. How was it possible that polonium was smuggled from some secret Russian atomic institute? What is more disturbing is If this IS NOT a Kremlin operation. That means that nuclear materials are accessible to terrorist master minds and this is some bad piece of news for the U.S.

Sarah Mendelson: I agree and I think we need to stay on this. Securing these materials is vital to US national security interest. Period. I find it especially sobering if we step back from the James Bond aspect of this all and realize we have witnessed a radiological event - murder - in a western city.

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washingtonpost.com: Thank you all for joining us today.

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